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New York MTA vetoes Kentucky's membership in E-ZPass

Started by hbelkins, October 12, 2015, 09:16:27 PM

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hbelkins



Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.


lordsutch

I'm curious how this is different from NC Quick Pass having both the E-ZPass and non-E-ZPass options, unless NC decided just to accept the 6 cents/transaction fee.

In any event, E-ZPass will have to accept KY interoperability next year anyway, so they can either decide to take what money they can from KY now or take nothing down the road.

briantroutman

Maybe I'm missing something, but why would Kentucky's PTIA need a second separate transponder sticker for local residents? Couldn't the relevant information be simply associated with the resident's E-ZPass account and then billed (or not billed) accordingly?

2trailertrucker

What I thought was interesting is the fact that Indiana is not on the board. Indiana has been using EZ Pass technology for years. So I guess they are paying the 6 cent fee, then.

Henry

That's the typical NYC bullshit again...why they stick their noses in everybody's business is beyond me.
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

The Ghostbuster

Why should New York, or any other state have any right to overrule what Kentucky does?

NJRoadfan

Quote from: lordsutch on October 12, 2015, 10:29:34 PM
I'm curious how this is different from NC Quick Pass having both the E-ZPass and non-E-ZPass options, unless NC decided just to accept the 6 cents/transaction fee.

NCTA is an "affiliate" member of the IAG not a full member.

Quote from: briantroutman on October 12, 2015, 10:53:22 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but why would Kentucky's PTIA need a second separate transponder sticker for local residents? Couldn't the relevant information be simply associated with the resident's E-ZPass account and then billed (or not billed) accordingly?

There is nothing preventing them from adding a "locals" discount code to the account. They already do it for Staten Island residents.

cl94

Quote from: NJRoadfan on October 13, 2015, 06:29:07 PM
Quote from: lordsutch on October 12, 2015, 10:29:34 PM
I'm curious how this is different from NC Quick Pass having both the E-ZPass and non-E-ZPass options, unless NC decided just to accept the 6 cents/transaction fee.

NCTA is an "affiliate" member of the IAG not a full member.

Quote from: briantroutman on October 12, 2015, 10:53:22 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but why would Kentucky's PTIA need a second separate transponder sticker for local residents? Couldn't the relevant information be simply associated with the resident's E-ZPass account and then billed (or not billed) accordingly?

There is nothing preventing them from adding a "locals" discount code to the account. They already do it for Staten Island residents.

That's my thought. The protocol allows for localized tolling schemes. I don't agree with the veto, but I understand it. As the board is in charge of the technology, Kentucky could be seen as having a conflict of interest. I'm assuming the logic is "if they want to be a full member, why do they feel the need to use another toll system?"
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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hbelkins

Quote from: cl94 on October 13, 2015, 08:48:07 PM
That's my thought. The protocol allows for localized tolling schemes. I don't agree with the veto, but I understand it. As the board is in charge of the technology, Kentucky could be seen as having a conflict of interest. I'm assuming the logic is "if they want to be a full member, why do they feel the need to use another toll system?"

Two words -- "Social Justice."

There's going to be a special rate for commuters, and that's the target market for the stickers. There were a lot of concerns expressed about the ability of some lower-income folks to pay the tolls. I don't know all the specifics but there should be a plethora of stories available online from Louisville media outlets about the situation.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

cl94

Quote from: hbelkins on October 13, 2015, 09:03:53 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 13, 2015, 08:48:07 PM
That's my thought. The protocol allows for localized tolling schemes. I don't agree with the veto, but I understand it. As the board is in charge of the technology, Kentucky could be seen as having a conflict of interest. I'm assuming the logic is "if they want to be a full member, why do they feel the need to use another toll system?"

Two words -- "Social Justice."

There's going to be a special rate for commuters, and that's the target market for the stickers. There were a lot of concerns expressed about the ability of some lower-income folks to pay the tolls. I don't know all the specifics but there should be a plethora of stories available online from Louisville media outlets about the situation.

E-ZPass does the same thing. They have commuter plans and resident plans. I don't see the difference.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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Thing 342

Quote from: 2trailertrucker on October 13, 2015, 07:30:00 AM
What I thought was interesting is the fact that Indiana is not on the board. Indiana has been using EZ Pass technology for years. So I guess they are paying the 6 cent fee, then.
IIRC, the private company that runs the Toll Road is a full member of the IAG, however, INDOT is not. 

cl94

Quote from: Thing 342 on October 13, 2015, 09:20:10 PM
Quote from: 2trailertrucker on October 13, 2015, 07:30:00 AM
What I thought was interesting is the fact that Indiana is not on the board. Indiana has been using EZ Pass technology for years. So I guess they are paying the 6 cent fee, then.
IIRC, the private company that runs the Toll Road is a full member of the IAG, however, INDOT is not.

Correct
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

Travel Mapping (updated weekly)

empirestate

Quote from: Henry on October 13, 2015, 12:17:50 PM
That's the typical NYC bullshit again...why they stick their noses in everybody's business is beyond me.

NYS, you mean. The MTA is a state-level agency.

Of course, I don't know that the rest of the state has a reputation for sticking its nose into things, so now I'm not sure your assessment applies.

Rothman

Quote from: empirestate on October 13, 2015, 11:49:03 PM
Quote from: Henry on October 13, 2015, 12:17:50 PM
That's the typical NYC bullshit again...why they stick their noses in everybody's business is beyond me.

NYS, you mean. The MTA is a state-level agency.


It's a public authority.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

empirestate

Quote from: Rothman on October 14, 2015, 09:42:42 AM
Quote from: empirestate on October 13, 2015, 11:49:03 PM
Quote from: Henry on October 13, 2015, 12:17:50 PM
That's the typical NYC bullshit again...why they stick their noses in everybody's business is beyond me.

NYS, you mean. The MTA is a state-level agency.


It's a public authority.

That too.

(Or instead–is there a distinction between an agency and an authority?)

cl94

Quote from: empirestate on October 14, 2015, 09:57:59 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 14, 2015, 09:42:42 AM
Quote from: empirestate on October 13, 2015, 11:49:03 PM
Quote from: Henry on October 13, 2015, 12:17:50 PM
That's the typical NYC bullshit again...why they stick their noses in everybody's business is beyond me.

NYS, you mean. The MTA is a state-level agency.


It's a public authority.

That too.

(Or instead–is there a distinction between an agency and an authority?)

Yes. An authority is a quasi-private corporation with a board of directors appointed by the State. Other than that, they are exempt from most of the regulations governing government agencies and they can issue their own debt. They allow major public works projects to be accomplished with relative ease, but they bring a slew of problems.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

Travel Mapping (updated weekly)

Rothman

Quote from: empirestate on October 14, 2015, 09:57:59 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 14, 2015, 09:42:42 AM
Quote from: empirestate on October 13, 2015, 11:49:03 PM
Quote from: Henry on October 13, 2015, 12:17:50 PM
That's the typical NYC bullshit again...why they stick their noses in everybody's business is beyond me.

NYS, you mean. The MTA is a state-level agency.


It's a public authority.

(Or instead–is there a distinction between an agency and an authority?)

Absolutely, especially in New York State.  The Governor has direct control over his agencies.  Public authorities (or by their technical, insidious name "public benefit corporations") operate mostly outside of the state.  The Governor can nominate some people to the board of the MTA, but I believe such nominations are subject to other members' approval (NYC and probably LI counties).  Less than half of the MTA's funding comes from state sources (e.g., taxes and subsidies), so all the brouhaha over the MTA budget in NY is only semi-oversight.

So, it's little wonder why the MTA and other public authorities can become convoluted monsters to manage and get the results that the public desires from them.  In fact, it makes me wonder why those that operate well do so given what a mess the MTA is (probably much fewer cooks spoiling the broth, say, with the Thruway Authority).
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Rothman

Quote from: cl94 on October 14, 2015, 10:00:48 AM
Quote from: empirestate on October 14, 2015, 09:57:59 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 14, 2015, 09:42:42 AM
Quote from: empirestate on October 13, 2015, 11:49:03 PM
Quote from: Henry on October 13, 2015, 12:17:50 PM
That's the typical NYC bullshit again...why they stick their noses in everybody's business is beyond me.

NYS, you mean. The MTA is a state-level agency.


It's a public authority.

That too.

(Or instead–is there a distinction between an agency and an authority?)

Yes. An authority is a quasi-private corporation with a board of directors appointed by the State. Other than that, they are exempt from most of the regulations governing government agencies and they can issue their own debt. They allow major public works projects to be accomplished with relative ease, but they bring a slew of problems.

Not technically true in the case of the MTA.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

empirestate

Quote from: Rothman on October 14, 2015, 10:09:59 AM
Quote from: empirestate on October 14, 2015, 09:57:59 AM
(Or instead–is there a distinction between an agency and an authority?)

Absolutely, especially in New York State.  The Governor has direct control over his agencies.  Public authorities (or by their technical, insidious name "public benefit corporations") operate mostly outside of the state.

I see. I was using "agency" as a general term, not considering that it had an official meaning for components of the state government. Yes, "authority" then.

But, point being that the MTA accounts–to the extent that public authorities are accountable at all–to the state government rather than the city (any of the cities it serves). That is to say, they are creatures of the state, created by legislative action and bound (also unbound) by the state constitution.

Rothman

Quote from: empirestate on October 14, 2015, 10:52:12 AM
Quote from: Rothman on October 14, 2015, 10:09:59 AM
Quote from: empirestate on October 14, 2015, 09:57:59 AM
(Or instead–is there a distinction between an agency and an authority?)

Absolutely, especially in New York State.  The Governor has direct control over his agencies.  Public authorities (or by their technical, insidious name "public benefit corporations") operate mostly outside of the state.

I see. I was using "agency" as a general term, not considering that it had an official meaning for components of the state government. Yes, "authority" then.

But, point being that the MTA accounts–to the extent that public authorities are accountable at all–to the state government rather than the city (any of the cities it serves). That is to say, they are creatures of the state, created by legislative action and bound (also unbound) by the state constitution.

Well, the MTA has to account to the state on some of their budget, but they do also "answer" to NYC and LI in similar, limited regards (i.e., members of their board come from them). 

Public authorities are more like monsters created by the state:  They're created by legislation but really "spun off" where their accountability is not totally controlled by the state.  Some experts consider them separate from the state altogether and just "regulated" like any other business or individual (i.e., none of us is outside of the law). 

(TANGENT:  I was at a meeting where an official from the NYS Dormitory Authority presented and reveled in how public authorities are separate from the State of NY Government.  I do think he exaggerated somewhat, given the limited oversight the State has over his authority, but it is true that public authorities are technically separate from mainline government agencies and administration)
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

empirestate

Indeed, MTA's business does largely involve NYC and, as you point out, other counties in the region. So, to the point at hand, MTA's action in the Kentucky E-ZPass case can't be chalked up to "NYC bullshit", because MTA isn't an exact surrogate for that city, or any one city.


iPhone

Henry

Well, I guess I was a bit confused. Still, NY should not have interfered with KY's plans.
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

cl94

Quote from: Henry on October 14, 2015, 12:23:06 PM
Well, I guess I was a bit confused. Still, NY should not have interfered with KY's plans.

New York is a stakeholder in the technology. If Kentucky wanted a resident discount plan, why didn't they just use what's already available on E-ZPass instead of using a separate system? It certainly raises a bit of suspicion. Is Kentucky trying to hide something? From an engineering perspective, it would probably cost more money to use two technologies instead of one because you'd have to have the infrastructure to support both.

Take the Atlantic Beach Bridge on Long Island that won't join E-ZPass because it would open their accounting to outside audit. There's a lot of corruption in that agency that can't be fully exposed because they're hiding their finances. The MTA is probably afraid Kentucky would be doing the same thing on a lesser scale.

Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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Rothman

Quote from: Henry on October 14, 2015, 12:23:06 PM
Well, I guess I was a bit confused. Still, NY should not have interfered with KY's plans.

It was called the Interagency Group for a reason.  If you join the group, you can't join halfway.  The group exists to ensure standardization, not diminish it.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

vdeane

I suspect that the MTA wants no part of 6C transponders and is afraid allowing Kentucky in would result in a technology change down the road.  Remember, this is the agency that didn't demolish the eastbound half of the Verrazano toll barrier for YEARS after it went to one-way tolling.  They also still use gate arms at almost all of their toll plazas.

Quote from: cl94 on October 14, 2015, 12:31:47 PM
Take the Atlantic Beach Bridge on Long Island that won't join E-ZPass because it would open their accounting to outside audit. There's a lot of corruption in that agency that can't be fully exposed because they're hiding their finances.
Don't they also use toll collector jobs as patronage positions?
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.



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