A Couple Fights the Cost of a Crossing

[Duke87]

You also see some very aggressive salesman tactics which I would call irresponsible.

Tactic 1: promise the customer something, and then attempt to use the fact that you already made the promise as leverage to get someone else to give you what you need in order to keep it.
Tactic 2: promise the customer something with no real plan on how to keep the promise, but just assume you'll figure it out later.
Tactic 3: promise the customer something you know you won't be able to deliver, but then by the time the customer figures that out you've already taken their money and run, and so what if you'll never sell that customer anything again, there are plenty of other suckers out there.

I encounter all three of these regularly at work. NYC contractors are quite a rambunctious bunch and keeping them in line is like herding cats.

[ixnay]

There's also the shift in society away from long-term planning to prioritizing short term quarterly gains, especially in publicly traded companies.

LOL!

ixnay

[vdeane]

There's also the shift in society away from long-term planning to prioritizing short term quarterly gains, especially in publicly traded companies.

LOL!

ixnay

Have you seen how the stock market works?  EVERYTHING is based on how well a company has done in a quarter.  Lose money in a quarter, even in pursuit of a long-term goal, and investors will not be happy, and holding stock a long time is becoming less and less common.

[The Nature Boy]

There's also the shift in society away from long-term planning to prioritizing short term quarterly gains, especially in publicly traded companies.

LOL!

ixnay

Have you seen how the stock market works?  EVERYTHING is based on how well a company has done in a quarter.  Lose money in a quarter, even in pursuit of a long-term goal, and investors will not be happy, and holding stock a long time is becoming less and less common.

Yeah, but I believe that the stock market has ALWAYS worked that way. That is not a recent development.

[jeffandnicole]

Smart investors look at the long-term goals, rather than the short-term results.  And sometimes the short-term results can be justified.  As long as the dividend check (if the stock has one) keeps rolling in, the general investor should (again, *should*) be happy.  But that's the Smart investor.

The typical Facebook investor doesn't even look.  All they know is that the price should never be lower than what they paid for it.  If it does drop, then sue the company for misleading them.

[vdeane]

With the increase in the number of Facebook investors and the rise of automatic computer trading, I imagine such behavior is more common than in the past.

[empirestate]

Also, if they're really from New York as they claim, they'd know that there is a free bridge less than a mile away.

Um, have ya met anyone from New York? They don't even know what's on the other side of their own borough, let alone in a neighboring one! (Particularly if one of those boroughs is the Bronx...)

[cl94]

Also, if they're really from New York as they claim, they'd know that there is a free bridge less than a mile away.

Um, have ya met anyone from New York? They don't even know what's on the other side of their own borough, let alone in a neighboring one! (Particularly if one of those boroughs is the Bronx...)

Yeah. My entire family is from the City and they certainly know a zillion ways to get to every bridge and tunnel in the city. Maybe they're the exception. Nobody knows the Bronx, especially west of Broadway, but the bridge is on a major route and a known toll-free alternate.

[Alps]

Also, if they're really from New York as they claim, they'd know that there is a free bridge less than a mile away.

Um, have ya met anyone from New York? They don't even know what's on the other side of their own borough, let alone in a neighboring one! (Particularly if one of those boroughs is the Bronx...)

Regardless, most New Yorkers would rather pay the toll on the Hudson than fight local Bronx and Manhattan traffic to get to Broadway, or swing all the way over to the Deegan and back.

[cpzilliacus]

N.Y. Times letter to the editor: E-ZPass and Rental Cars

[jeffandnicole]

N.Y. Times letter to the editor: E-ZPass and Rental Cars

The only downside is if you rent a car very infrequently, you're paying money in advance for something that may never be used.

For Life Insurance, that's a good thing.  For EZ Pass...eh.  The whole problem would've been solved if they had done a few minutes of route investigation first.

[Pete from Boston]

N.Y. Times letter to the editor: E-ZPass and Rental Cars

The only downside is if you rent a car very infrequently, you're paying money in advance for something that may never be used.

For Life Insurance, that's a good thing.  For EZ Pass...eh.  The whole problem would've been solved if they had done a few minutes of route investigation first.

In their defense, once you get off these boards, it's far from common knowledge that there's AET out there.  It's a very new thing.  Consider that there is no other toll facility in the tri-state area with this setup, and that area is one of the most abundantly tolled in the country. 

I don't know that they have a right to their money back–that is a question of consumer law, etc.–but it would be in the rental car companies' interest to make a good-faith effort to publicize that this is going to be an issue going forward.  It's much simpler than going through this nonsense of argument and bad publicity.  And a one-time fee dismissal certainly wouldn't hurt them. 

In other words, this is a situation the motoring public is generally not prepared for.  The options are a) help prepare them, or b) enjoy the profits from their ignorance.  Only one of these leaves the companies looking good.

[agentsteel53]

Of course, she was renting her car from Dollar, not exactly an oasis of reasonable prices.

fixed that for ya.  Dollar is the Spirit Airlines of the rental car world.  them and Budget. 

in general, never go with a rental car company whose name implies cheapness. 

[Pete from Boston]

Of course, she was renting her car from Dollar, not exactly an oasis of reasonable prices.

fixed that for ya.  Dollar is the Spirit Airlines of the rental car world.  them and Budget. 

in general, never go with a rental car company whose name implies cheapness.

You can add Pay-Less to that list.  Meets all the criteria.

[jeffandnicole]

I, and millions of others, have used these car companies without issues.  In Vegas especially, I can easily rent a car for under $200 for a week, and that includes taxes that amount to over 50% of the total rental cost.

[agentsteel53]

Vegas is indeed absurdly inexpensive.  I once was carless and had the opportunity to fly from Tampa to anywhere to do a 3 week long road trip.  Vegas won out for the cheapest combination of airfare and rental, despite being on the other side of the country.

alas, I went with the aforementioned Budget, and when I rejected the SUV they tried to force onto me with the "free! upgrade! you know you want to be a bully!" pitch... they stuck me with a Dodge Caliber. 

my revenge was 17000 miles in 21 days.  I never bothered to invoice them for the oil changes, but in retrospect I should have.

[jeffandnicole]

My best was 548 miles for a 1 day rental from Vegas, driving all around Death Valley (and that was completed in about 14 hours). 

[Alps]

Of course, she was renting her car from Dollar, not exactly an oasis of reasonable prices.

fixed that for ya.  Dollar is the Spirit Airlines of the rental car world.  them and Budget. 

in general, never go with a rental car company whose name implies cheapness. 

Budget is under Avis, and at this point they essentially operate as one. I've found similar prices on the same cars sold through either, and the local Budget office has been excellent to me (as has the occasional non-local one). Dollar, agreed, should be called Nickel & Dime.

[empirestate]

In their defense, once you get off these boards, it's far from common knowledge that there's AET out there.  It's a very new thing.  Consider that there is no other toll facility in the tri-state area with this setup, and that area is one of the most abundantly tolled in the country. 

I don't know that they have a right to their money back–that is a question of consumer law, etc.–but it would be in the rental car companies' interest to make a good-faith effort to publicize that this is going to be an issue going forward.  It's much simpler than going through this nonsense of argument and bad publicity.  And a one-time fee dismissal certainly wouldn't hurt them. 

In other words, this is a situation the motoring public is generally not prepared for.  The options are a) help prepare them, or b) enjoy the profits from their ignorance.  Only one of these leaves the companies looking good.

When I rented a car in Ireland, it was explained to me very thoroughly about the all-electronic tolls around Dublin, how I should go about paying them (directly, through the toll agency's website), and how to demonstrate to the rental company that the debt was settled to avoid any unwanted charges on my account.

[briantroutman]

Budget is under Avis...

There's been an incredible consolidation in the rental car business recently to the point where there are really just three major national companies:

Enterprise Holdings (Enterprise, National, and Alamo)
Hertz Global Holdings (Hertz, Dollar, and Thrifty)
Avis Budget Group (Avis and Budget)

When I rented a car in Ireland, it was explained to me very thoroughly about the all-electronic tolls around Dublin, how I should go about paying them (directly, through the toll agency's website), and how to demonstrate to the rental company that the debt was settled to avoid any unwanted charges on my account.

I had the opposite experience renting from Hertz in London–they didn't mention a single word about congestion charges, which are even more of a "gotcha"  than most other tolls because they cover local city streets, not turnpikes or bridges which you might reasonably expect to be tolled. Being astute, I noticed the relatively small congestion charge signs and was able to track down the City of London's payment portal and pay the charge before it had a chance to hit the rental agency. But I could easily imagine the typical non-local motorist overlooking them entirely.

In other words, this is a situation the motoring public is generally not prepared for.  The options are a) help prepare them, or b) enjoy the profits from their ignorance.

And your option A becomes somewhat less viable as car rental agencies move toward self-service and "skip the line"  type arrangements where cars are pre-assigned and you don't speak with an actual person; you just get in the car and go.

The conspiracy theorist in me sees two major benefits for the rental agency. One is that the agency won't have to spend as much on counter staff, which is a change I think most renters would welcome. They don't want to wait in line anyway.

The second (and more nefarious) win for the agency is that they're able to profit more easily from people's confusion, ignorance, and inclination to hurry. In that environment, everything from the outrageously marked up junk insurance to the unconscionable toll surcharges is disclosed on a half-dozen pages printed at the exit gate–where several cars are stacked up and honking their horns impatiently.

It's longstanding black-letter law in all fifty states that you are charged with knowledge of a contract's contents if you accept the contract, regardless of whether you read it.

While I won't dispute that what you say is factually correct–and though this same principle is at the forefront of my mind whenever I sign or otherwise accept a contract–wouldn't you agree that there is something troubling about a business that, by the business owners' design, can only operate in a world where most people do not read the contract they accept?

Take the car rental agency for example. At least with Hertz (the company I use personally), if you're a member of their rewards program, your contract is printed out at the exit gate. And this roughly six-page contact is handed to you as the gate arm simultaneously raises–and the gate agent gives you an unspoken "Scram...I need to move on to the next customer."   Now you could piss off the gate agent and the mounting queue behind you by taking a good fifteen minutes to read the entire contract throughly, and the system could handle a few people who insist on reading the contract, but if every person read the entire contract completely, Hertz's business model would fall apart. In a busy location like LAX, Hertz would have to cap the number of vehicles they rent in a day by the number of times the contract could possibly be read, multiplied by the number of exit lanes open. In reality, they rent many times that number–or put in other words, it is not possible for every customer to read the entire contract if they wanted to.

I'm not an attorney, but my understanding is that at its core, contract law is designed to promote an honest and complete memorialization of a "meeting of the minds" , where two parties, each having relatively equal bargaining power and being of a capacity to enter into a contract, reach an arrangement beneficial to both parties. And to those ends, courts have held that contracts which do not include consideration for both parties, are signed by representatives who lack proper capacity, or are impossible to carry out are unenforceable. In my opinion, an enterprise that can exist only because people don't read the contract, one that burdens consumers with lengthy documentation ridiculously out of proportion to the relative importance of the transaction–in which a score of high-priced attorneys spend weeks drafting a contract that is to be accepted by an Omaha salesman in a Hyundai Accent within seconds–is diametrically opposed to the spirit of honest and fair contract law.

[jeffandnicole]

In many cases, the contract is so lengthy because someone sued a company. This, the company must add something to the contract to protect themselves from such lawsuits.

As far as a meeting of the minds go, if that was held true to the absolute highest of standards, no one would be able to own a house or rent an apartment.

[vdeane]

Or they could act in a way that would make it less likely for them to get sued.  If businesses worked for the greater good rather than profit, they'd probably find themselves in court a lot less.

[Revive 755]

Also, as more toll agencies abandon cash tolling, it becomes more burdensome to research the available payment methods for each toll facility, and the potential only increases for Catch-22 situations where people drive up to toll crossings without being told in advance that they cannot pay without being socked with heavy fees.

If there is no advance warning of a toll facility (especially one that does not accept cash or has a short online payment period), the agency in charge of the road and maybe the facility operator should be guilty of entrapment and should have to fork over some money to their victims.  The MUTCD should also be modified to make use of the 'last exit before toll' plaque or a similar sign mandatory.

As for researching routes beforehand for tolls, there's always the chance a crash or other problem sends one onto an unfamiliar route.

[cl94]

Also, as more toll agencies abandon cash tolling, it becomes more burdensome to research the available payment methods for each toll facility, and the potential only increases for Catch-22 situations where people drive up to toll crossings without being told in advance that they cannot pay without being socked with heavy fees.

If there is no advance warning of a toll facility (especially one that does not accept cash or has a short online payment period), the agency in charge of the road and maybe the facility operator should be guilty of entrapment and should have to fork over some money to their victims.  The MUTCD should also be modified to make use of the 'last exit before toll' plaque or a similar sign mandatory.

As for researching routes beforehand for tolls, there's always the chance a crash or other problem sends one onto an unfamiliar route.

The only toll roads/bridges I've seen without such a sign actually on the road itself use barrier tolls and have signage entering the highway that states it is a toll road in few uncertain terms. Exiting onto a toll road from a free highway is another story altogether. NYSDOT isn't great about telling road users that the Thruway is a toll road, with only a few "toll" banners and the assumption that saying "Thruway" or posting a NYSTA shield will be enough warning of the impending toll. Most of us in the Northeast know that a Thruway/Turnpike/GSP shield indicates a toll road, but I know it startles tourists from areas without toll roads.

[oscar]

In many cases, the contract is so lengthy because someone sued a company. This, the company must add something to the contract to protect themselves from such lawsuits.

More likely that the company needed to sue a customer, but couldn't because the necessary contract language was missing.

One common such feature of car rental contracts is the provision forbidding the rental vehicle from being driven to Mexico, which among other problems means a higher risk that the vehicle may never come back to the company. Add in other such "defensive" provisions to protect the company against customer misbehavior, and you end up with a fairly lengthy contract even if (hypothetically) the company is trying to keep the contract short.