Decline of Big Box Stores

[vdeane]

Menard's is indeed a better store.  Wish we had them in the East.

We have Lowes.

[Pete from Boston]

Menard's is indeed a better store.  Wish we had them in the East.

We have Lowes.

Far better at stocking a broader array of hardware items than Home Depot (I will momentarily be heading there for 12" carriage bolts HD doesn't carry), better kept stores, and better signage and organization.  Too bad they're late to the game and doomed to be second fiddle.

[DeaconG]

I'm not sure why Sears doesn't jettison Kmart, or even if it's possible.

Kmart (aka Eddie Lampert) bought Sears.  I'm not sure Lampert wants to jettison either until he gets his money out of them.

Well he's starting to try to part off the profitable brands of both companies (cough Sears Holdings...) or rather trying to.  They sent out a big intra-company memo a couple years ago about how selling real estate was going to be a big part of future business.  If you read between the lines that means closure of stores and attempting to sell the property.  Only problem was the recession hit when they did that and Sears Holding was left holding a ton of empty retail buildings.  Now Sears Holding is blowing through their cash reserves and can't reinvest in what retail space they have left which in turn means they only fall further behind Target and Wal-Mart.  It's only a matter of time before the company goes under and is parted off for brands like Sears, Craftsman, Sears Auto, Kenmore, ect....  The worst thing that ever could have happened to either company was Eddie Lampert getting his fangs into either one of them; the guy has proven again and again that he doesn't have a clue how to run a retail business.

Yes, right here.  His entire modus operandi was contingent on selling the real estate.  When that didn't work, his ego decided that he could run a brick and mortar business better than folks who'd been doing it all their lives, with him screwing up everything in the process.  He thinks that if he can monetize the  Craftsman and Kenmore brands it'll gin up some more cash for the company at a time when they never bothered to spend to update their stores.

I grew up with Sears (my mom retired from there in the late 80s just ahead of the first major downsizing of the company) and when I stepped into one recently I was astonished at the lack of foot traffic.

Eddie Lampert, bullshit artist.

(God I miss the retail-worker.com Sears Holdings board...)

[Duke87]

The problem with sales taxes on the Internet is that sales taxes are collected by the states, and there is simply no legal mechanism to enforce it. Say I sell something to algorerhythms here: obviously I have to tax him because we both live in Oklahoma and if I don't Oklahoma can certainly come after me for it. Now, if I sell to you and don't tax you, but Illinois wants me to collect tax from you, the Illinois government has no legal way to come after me. I'm not a citizen of IL and the IL authorities cannot come to OK to pick me up. The transaction, for all intents and purposes, happened in Oklahoma, so it's hard to say that I should even collect IL tax.

Indeed, there is no established federal standard on this matter. The supreme court last year declined to hear a case about it.

Amazon has wrangled with various states over whether they are required to collect sales tax from customers in states where they have no physical presence. For years, you paid no sales tax for an item from Amazon if you had it shipped to an address in Connecticut, Massachusetts, or Virginia (and probably others as well). As of last fall customers in those states are now paying sales tax, since deals have been struck.

[hbelkins]

Kentucky levies a tax similar to what bulldog1979 described. It's called "sales and use tax" and the mechanics are similar to what he describes. If you buy something from an online or catalog retailer and don't pay sales tax, you're supposed to pony up 6 percent on your income tax return. If you buy something in a state that has a tax rate lower than 6 percent, you're supposed to remit the difference. But you get no tax credit for buying something in sales tax hell (a/k/a Tennessee). Back in the day, one of the prime examples used as the type of purchases on which use taxes needed to be paid was records or tapes ordered from a club like Columbia House or BMG (I was a member of both).

(People from my area go to Tennessee often to shop, specifically the outlet malls in Sevierville and Pigeon Forge. I understand wanting to go to the Smokies and the tourist traps for vacation, but to shop? By the time you buy gas and pay Tennessee's ungodly sales tax rates, it's probably cheaper to buy here in Kentucky).

For online retailers, if the company has a physical presence (nexus) in the state, it has to levy sales tax on online orders. Amazon used to be tax-free until they opened a couple of distribution centers in Kentucky. Ditto for Apple until they opened a couple of Apple Stores in malls in Louisville and Lexington. Zappos? Forget it. They have a fulfillment center south of Louisville.

[thenetwork]

Kmart and Sears will both probably be gone in their current configurations by 2017.  In the (still open) Kmarts that I know of, not one of them has been remodeled on the inside or outside and Sears has barely gotten facelifts (due to new logos and cashier relocations).

It used to be that a Sears parking lot on a weekend would be teeming with cars, especially near the entrances closest to the hardware / auto departments.  On a recent Saturday morning, I passed by a Sears, and could count the number of cars parked by those entrances on my two hands.  My town just added a Sears Outlet store this spring, despite the Sears and Kmarts being ghost towns.  I'm still waiting to see which of the two older stores close first.

I always thought Sears Outlet was just a fancy name for Kmart!

[The Nature Boy]

I'm honestly surprised Kmart is around in any capacity. I found myself in one to buy a drink after ordering pizza (the pizza place was in the same plaza as a Kmart). The whole interior felt very 90s.

[exit322]

Some actually stay busy.  The one near me here in Massillon OH always has a fair number of cars at it.  It's not Wal-Mart by any stretch, but during the day there's almost always at least 15-20 cars in the parking lot.

And it's K-Mart, you know only 4 of those are employees.

[jeffandnicole]

8 of those cars are there because they're waiting to pay for their purchases at the service desk or jewelry counter, since they tend to have zero checkout lanes open.

[Laura]

I feel bad saying this, but I've definitely used stores as a showroom before. Most recently, I found a pair of running shoes that I wanted for 50% off on the manufacturer's website, so I went to a store that carried them, tried them on, and then went home and ordered the size I needed.

[Pete from Boston]

Yes, right here.  His entire modus operandi was contingent on selling the real estate.  When that didn't work, his ego decided that he could run a brick and mortar business better than folks who'd been doing it all their lives, with him screwing up everything in the process.  He thinks that if he can monetize the  Craftsman and Kenmore brands it'll gin up some more cash for the company at a time when they never bothered to spend to update their stores.

I grew up with Sears (my mom retired from there in the late 80s just ahead of the first major downsizing of the company) and when I stepped into one recently I was astonished at the lack of foot traffic.

Eddie Lampert, bullshit artist.

(God I miss the retail-worker.com Sears Holdings board...)

I had meant to respond to this and forgot.  This was, in essence, the process by which Pabst was dissolved as anything but a marketing and promotion company, bringing with it all kinds of smaller regional brewers.  From the early 80s on, ownership bought small and large breweries, disinvested in them, and liquidated their assets except for the brands (Schlitz, Schaefer, Piels, Ballantine, Falstaff, Narragansett, Olympia, etc., etc.).  Then it stopped brewing altogether, ultimately stripping down to 200 employees, moving to San Antonio, and contracting all brewing out to Miller.  I once heard a figure that its investment of revenues back into the business declined for twenty straight years. 

And then, of course, it became cool to drink old-timey beers and Pabst's revenues skyrocketed despite their best efforts.  If only the hipsters would glom onto Kenmore and Craftsman.

[tchafe1978]

Don't even get me started on Pabst Brewing Company. My dad worked for the Pabst Brewery for over 30 years, and lost his job when they shut down the brewery and decided to contract all the brewing out. Granted, Pabst's sales sucked back in the mid-90's, but that was because like you said, they failed to invest in the company. Now Pabst is a hipster brand? Fuck that bullshit. Where were all the hipsters back when you were laughed at for drinking Pabst? Now the ironic thing is, there is (or was, haven't heard much of them in the last 6 months or so) a group of people trying to acquire the Pabst Brewing Co. so they can bring the brewing of the beer back to Milwaukee. Good luck raising the half a billion dollars to do that.

[spooky]

the takeaway, as always, is that hipsters are terrible.

[jeffandnicole]

Don't even get me started on Pabst Brewing Company. My dad worked for the Pabst Brewery for over 30 years, and lost his job when they shut down the brewery and decided to contract all the brewing out. Granted, Pabst's sales sucked back in the mid-90's, but that was because like you said, they failed to invest in the company. Now Pabst is a hipster brand? Fuck that bullshit. Where were all the hipsters back when you were laughed at for drinking Pabst? Now the ironic thing is, there is (or was, haven't heard much of them in the last 6 months or so) a group of people trying to acquire the Pabst Brewing Co. so they can bring the brewing of the beer back to Milwaukee. Good luck raising the half a billion dollars to do that.

While in Milwaukee a few years ago, I took a tour of the Pabst Brewing complex.  Very interesting and unfortunate history.  Great tour though of the main building.  It's fairly common, as we found out, for people to wander away from the tour group and check out some of the hidden gems of the building.

BTW, PBR...even though it's brewed elsewhere (Los Angeles area, I believe), is still a good beer. And cheap. :-)

[tchafe1978]

Don't even get me started on Pabst Brewing Company. My dad worked for the Pabst Brewery for over 30 years, and lost his job when they shut down the brewery and decided to contract all the brewing out. Granted, Pabst's sales sucked back in the mid-90's, but that was because like you said, they failed to invest in the company. Now Pabst is a hipster brand? Fuck that bullshit. Where were all the hipsters back when you were laughed at for drinking Pabst? Now the ironic thing is, there is (or was, haven't heard much of them in the last 6 months or so) a group of people trying to acquire the Pabst Brewing Co. so they can bring the brewing of the beer back to Milwaukee. Good luck raising the half a billion dollars to do that.

While in Milwaukee a few years ago, I took a tour of the Pabst Brewing complex.  Very interesting and unfortunate history.  Great tour though of the main building.  It's fairly common, as we found out, for people to wander away from the tour group and check out some of the hidden gems of the building.

BTW, PBR...even though it's brewed elsewhere (Los Angeles area, I believe), is still a good beer. And cheap. :-)

PBR is still brewed in Milwaukee, but by Miller now instead, under contract. The Pabst Brewing Co. is based in Los Angeles, but no longer brews its own beer.

Most of the brewery is being redeveloped into mixed use, condos, retail, entertainment. I'm not sure if you can still tour the old buildings or not.

[jeffandnicole]

Don't even get me started on Pabst Brewing Company. My dad worked for the Pabst Brewery for over 30 years, and lost his job when they shut down the brewery and decided to contract all the brewing out. Granted, Pabst's sales sucked back in the mid-90's, but that was because like you said, they failed to invest in the company. Now Pabst is a hipster brand? Fuck that bullshit. Where were all the hipsters back when you were laughed at for drinking Pabst? Now the ironic thing is, there is (or was, haven't heard much of them in the last 6 months or so) a group of people trying to acquire the Pabst Brewing Co. so they can bring the brewing of the beer back to Milwaukee. Good luck raising the half a billion dollars to do that.

While in Milwaukee a few years ago, I took a tour of the Pabst Brewing complex.  Very interesting and unfortunate history.  Great tour though of the main building.  It's fairly common, as we found out, for people to wander away from the tour group and check out some of the hidden gems of the building.

BTW, PBR...even though it's brewed elsewhere (Los Angeles area, I believe), is still a good beer. And cheap. :-)

PBR is still brewed in Milwaukee, but by Miller now instead, under contract. The Pabst Brewing Co. is based in Los Angeles, but no longer brews its own beer.

Most of the brewery is being redeveloped into mixed use, condos, retail, entertainment. I'm not sure if you can still tour the old buildings or not.

I knew there was some sort of LA connection.

One of the buildings is now a hotel, which contains some original features of the building and the beer brewing that occurred there.  Another building is some sort of offices I believe.  You can tour the main building, which is where the President of the company had his offices.    The tour includes one beer, but you can buy more.  Because of this, you're unlikely to get drunk during the tour...unlike some tours in Milwaukee (Cough cough Lakefront Brewery.  )

[The Nature Boy]

This thread is really making me crave a beer........

[NJRoadfan]

Ahh, Sears, the real estate holding company masquerading as a retail store (and not doing a very good job of it). Of course now that retail is in the crapper in many markets, all that real estate isn't looking so hot.

[DeaconG]

Ahh, Sears, the real estate holding company masquerading as a retail store (and not doing a very good job of it). Of course now that retail is in the crapper in many markets, all that real estate isn't looking so hot.

It's a bad sign when the position of President of the company opens up and for over a year NO ONE would touch it.  Eddie is a micromanager and wouldn't allow the man to do what he could do anyway, so when he did end up with a President he was another Eddie clone.

O Sears! My Sears!

[catch22]

Kmart and Sears will both probably be gone in their current configurations by 2017.  In the (still open) Kmarts that I know of, not one of them has been remodeled on the inside or outside and Sears has barely gotten facelifts (due to new logos and cashier relocations).

It used to be that a Sears parking lot on a weekend would be teeming with cars, especially near the entrances closest to the hardware / auto departments.  On a recent Saturday morning, I passed by a Sears, and could count the number of cars parked by those entrances on my two hands.  My town just added a Sears Outlet store this spring, despite the Sears and Kmarts being ghost towns.  I'm still waiting to see which of the two older stores close first.

I always thought Sears Outlet was just a fancy name for Kmart!

Last year, we painted our bedroom.  It had been a couple of years since the last painting project.  We went to Sears, since we'd always had good luck with their paints dating back to the early 1980s.   The paint department in our local Sears was a ghost town, with little stock on the shelves and no one to wait on us (we needed a custom color).  I walked over to the cash register in the tool department and asked if someone could help us.  Went back to wait and noticed that what little paint that was on the shelves had a fine coating of dust on it.  I waited about 5 more minutes, no one showed so we took our business elsewhere. Sad.

[Pete from Boston]

I have a lot of Craftsman hand tools, because the quality and durability has been excellent, but the upkeep of the tool department is so inconsistent from store to store that it's less of a draw than it was.  Too much of a crapshoot.  Such a lousy way to run into the ground a line that should be a significant draw into the store.

[DeaconG]

I keep praying for Best Buy to die...this was a store I used to love going to, anyone remember the "Daddy Store" commercials?  That's what Best Buy was to me for a long time...and then they fucked it up.  What killed it for me was being badgered at the cash register every single time for credit card/magazine/something or other and I got tired of saying "No. No. NO." Here is money! Do you want it?  After al couple of years of this I got to the point where I did not deal with Best Buy unless I had to...until 2002.

December 2002, two weeks before Christmas and I'm looking for a digital camera; I knew the camera I wanted (a Sony Mavica with the 130MB Mini-DVD drive instead of the floppy) and I knew Best Buy had it, so off I go to my nearest BB in Melbourne.  Now, it's the holidays and the store was busy, the camera section had several people who were trying to decide what to get and I was patient because there weren't a lot of salespeople to go around, but after 30 minutes I'm saying to myself "I need to wrap this up because I have a 30 minute ride home", so after another five minutes I flag down a salesperson, point to the camera in question and asked if they had one in stock.

"Yes sir, we have it in stock, I'll go get you one." Cool...so I chill for another 15 minutes, and then the same salesperson comes up and says to me "Sir, I'm going to go ahead and get that camera for you, we're trying to locate where they are."  That should have been a red flag, but I stayed another 10-15 minutes...no salesperson...no camera...one hour of my time burned...and no sale.

So down the street I go to Circuit City (who I'd been avoiding for ten years because of some smart ass salesperson at one of their stores in PA trying to diss my audio cred while helping my brother find a receiver), not expecting much.  Walked into their electronics area, found my camera in stock; after 10 minutes I was able to flag down a salesperson and said "I want THAT camera" (pointing at the cage where the box sat).

"Yes, sir, we'll fix you up..." and five minutes after that I was on my way home with my new toy.

TWO WEEKS later...I'm up in Philly with family and the TV I bought my Mom many years ago finally decided to go TU (the green gun went out), so my younger brother asks if I would ride with him the Wilmington to get her a new TV (since DE has no sales tax), so we jump in my car and off we go.  When we get there my brother says 'Let's go to Best Buy and get that TV."

Me (snarling): "Did you not hear about what I went through with these idiots in Melbourne? Dude, Circuit City is down the road."
Him: "Naw, let's go here."
Me: "You'll be sorrrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy..." 

So we go in the store and it's a nuthouse; it's after Christmas and the floor is extremely crowded, but my younger brother wants to persevere, so we get to where the TV's are and after about five minutes we decide on the one we want (it was a 27" GE, IIRC), so we look to see if they have any in immediate stock...and they had one.  The box looks like someone drove a set of forklift tines through the bottom part of it, so needless to say that's one unit we want no parts of.

Now for the fun part...trying to find a salesperson.  So as the minutes begin to stretch on, I'm watching my younger brother start to get agitated, and I'm internally laughing my ass off because I TOLD YOU SO...and about twenty-five minutes into this we manage to find a salesperson, tell him the TV we want and could we get one?

This jackwagon proceeds to point to the box with the holes in it and says "There's one right there."  Me and my brother go "Um, no homeboy; that won't work. Can you get us one that doesn't look like it's been handled roughly?"

So off he goes into the crowd.  Another 20 minutes pass and now my brother is starting to get really pissed and he wants to leave.  Me, the evil one, goes "No, no, it's crowded, give him a chance!" (Besides, it's my car and we'll leave when I damn well please, since you wanted to come here asshole!) Finally, my brother says "Oh, there he is!", pointing to the opposite end of the store, where the guy is on a power lift to get the TV.

He gets to the shelf...we hear a thump and half the lights in the store go out.  So now they announce on the PA system that everyone has to move to the front of the store...and we proceed to exit the store, a full 45 minutes wasted.  I turn to my brother and snarl "NOW can we go to Circuit City like I ASKED YOU?"

We go down the street to the Circuit City, find the same TV we saw at Best Buy. Ten minutes later a salesman comes up, five minutes after that we've paid for the TV and my car is waiting at the merchandise pick up, they even unboxed the TV and shoehorned it into my backseat (and my brother held that TV up all the way back to my Mom's). A grand total of 25 minutes TOPS.

Neither one of us set foot in Best Buy for YEARS after that.

I've only set foot in one 4 times since then, the last time I was there they'd finally knocked off the whole "credit card/magazine" crap, but their selections of everything just suck badly, especially their software aisles-what the hell?  I used to buy all the latest PC games from here, a lot of my desktop software came from here, and now Staples displays have a better selection than BB.

Best Buy and Wal-Mart are in my "When you have no damn choice" list.  I miss Circuit City, I miss CompUSA...y'all come back please!

[hbelkins]

When Best Buy first came to Lexington, Ky., they had a huge CD section. They carried tons of imports and other stuff you couldn't commonly find. I loved it.

Now they don't have much more than what you can find in Walmart.

[Roadrunner75]

When Best Buy first came to Lexington, Ky., they had a huge CD section. They carried tons of imports and other stuff you couldn't commonly find. I loved it.

Now they don't have much more than what you can find in Walmart.

I miss the CD selection there too...actually I miss record stores in general.  Amazon now gets me what I know I want, but record stores - and especially the used section / bargain bins - let me stumble upon good things I wasn't specifically looking for in the first place.

[formulanone]

Best Buy seemed to be the antithesis of Circuit City, I guess offering a larger selection over better customer service (temporarily) won out. Then, their prices went up and I suppose customers avoided them for both reasons.

I've been in one only once in the past eight years; they had an iPod (160GB scroll wheel) cheaper in their online store than anywhere else, and they actually managed to price-match it. During the holidays, their lines are absurdly long - twenty minutes for checking out is unacceptable. But I'd saved fifty bucks...something you almost never get with any Apple product.