Northern Virginia HOT Lanes

[Jmiles32]

[You do realize that the bottleneck there is a problem now that would need to get fixed anyway.  (especially considering the reduction of weaving that should occur on I-95 SB between the current southern endpoint and SR 610). 

AFAIK, the fourth lane extension SB to SR 630 is still dependent on the bid for the rest of the interchange project there.]

Yes I understand how bad the bottleneck is in Garrisonvile, I was just under the impression that because of VDOT winning the FASTLANE grant that it would just become part of the HOT lane extension to Fredericksburg. Now since that extension won't start until mid 2018, I have no problem with them fixing the current problem now. The sooner the better.

[1995hoo]

Do any of the rest of you use the HO/T lanes on a regular basis? If so, have you noticed any abnormally long toll-processing cycles recently? The reason I ask is that most afternoons this summer we've used the I-495 lanes from I-66 to Springfield, then the I-95 lanes from the Beltway to the Franconia—Springfield Parkway. Usually it takes about four days for tolls to post. But since August 1, we had no tolls post at all until August 12, on which date the tolls for August 2 and 3 posted. (I don't remember whether we used the lanes on August 1. I assume so, but I just don't remember.) I was getting concerned about it because during the week of August 1 we were driving Ms1995hoo's car, which we do not normally use for summer commutes since my car has a stronger AC system, and the lack of posted tolls made me concerned that we might have a dead transponder battery. Those August 2 and 3 tolls are still the most recent ones to post.

It makes it damn hard to keep track of and manage your E-ZPass balance when they take that long to post the transactions. Has anybody else noticed this sort of issue lately?

BTW, it prompts a separate question: Is there any way, aside from driving on a "conventional" toll road where you go through a tollbooth with traffic lights, to test your E-ZPass transponder battery?

[cpzilliacus]

It makes it damn hard to keep track of and manage your E-ZPass balance when they take that long to post the transactions. Has anybody else noticed this sort of issue lately?

BTW, it prompts a separate question: Is there any way, aside from driving on a "conventional" toll road where you go through a tollbooth with traffic lights, to test your E-ZPass transponder battery?

It has been a while since I was a paying customer on the Transurban  HOV/Toll lanes in Northern Virginia (I have used the I-95 and the I-495 lanes earlier this year).  I did not notice it taking an especially long time to post to my MDTA E-ZPass account.

I believe that all E-ZPass transactions are run through one VDOT E-ZPass posting process, regardless of which toll road or toll crossing you use. I have been on two in Virginia recently, and will check to see how long it takes for those to post.

Regarding batteries in the transponder, aside from driving through a conventional toll barrier (like the Dulles Toll Road or the Baltimore Harbor Tunnel) and looking for the response, you can go to a walk-in E-ZPass service center and have the health  of your transponder checked (at least in Maryland - I presume the Virginia ones have the capability as well).  The Maryland people have a device that diagnoses a transponder for any problems, including low battery.

[74/171FAN]

It makes it damn hard to keep track of and manage your E-ZPass balance when they take that long to post the transactions. Has anybody else noticed this sort of issue lately?

BTW, it prompts a separate question: Is there any way, aside from driving on a "conventional" toll road where you go through a tollbooth with traffic lights, to test your E-ZPass transponder battery?

It has been a while since I was a paying customer on the Transurban  HOV/Toll lanes in Northern Virginia (I have used the I-95 and the I-495 lanes earlier this year).  I did not notice it taking an especially long time to post to my MDTA E-ZPass account.

I believe that all E-ZPass transactions are run through one VDOT E-ZPass posting process, regardless of which toll road or toll crossing you use. I have been on two in Virginia recently, and will check to see how long it takes for those to post.

Regarding batteries in the transponder, aside from driving through a conventional toll barrier (like the Dulles Toll Road or the Baltimore Harbor Tunnel) and looking for the response, you can go to a walk-in E-ZPass service center and have the health  of your transponder checked (at least in Maryland - I presume the Virginia ones have the capability as well).  The Maryland people have a device that diagnoses a transponder for any problems, including low battery.

I have never had problems with transactions being posted for my VA EZPASS for anything other than the I-95 and I-495 HOT Lanes.  (I did a test run coming back to Harrisburg the Sunday after Thanksgiving and noticed that (it happened to be about a week).  All of my PA transactions show up usually within 2-3 days.)

[cpzilliacus]

Washington Post: Drivers wary of HOT times ahead on I-66

The Aug. 1 groundbreaking ceremony for the I-66 HOT lanes project inside the Capital Beltway sparked many questions from travelers who wanted to know precisely how this new thing would affect them.

This is only natural. Most travelers don't spend their commute time pondering grand transportation strategy. They want to know when they will get there and how much it will cost. That leads to common concerns such as this about the high-occupancy toll lanes.

[1995hoo]

One annoying aspect I recently found on the HO/T lanes that should be self-evident but wasn't something I'd thought much about: Their claim that you lock in your toll rate when you enter the lanes is not strictly accurate. You only lock in your rate when you pass under the first gantry. On August 4, the sign on I-66 advertised $7.75 to Springfield, but we hit stopped traffic right at the bottom of the ramp (none of the advance signage warned of it) and it took ten minutes to reach the first gantry. We were charged $8.60. That's not enough of a difference for me to complain to them and make a stink about it, but it does underscore one flaw with putting all the gantries over the road instead of the exit/entrance ramps–if you hit stopped traffic, you're not assured of getting the advertised toll rate. I would have been a lot more annoyed if the toll had spiked to $11.40 or so!

[AlexandriaVA]

Some of the comments on today's Washington Post article amount to how the drivers will take other routes than 66 once the HOT system goes live, but isn't that a core (if often unmentioned) element of HOT lanes, which is that drivers will simply not make certain trips, or make the same trip on a different route, leaving the HOT lanes populated by people who are more able and willing to pay the toll or meet the HOV requirement?

[1995hoo]

Some of the comments on today's Washington Post article amount to how the drivers will take other routes than 66 once the HOT system goes live, but isn't that a core (if often unmentioned) element of HOT lanes, which is that drivers will simply not make certain trips, or make the same trip on a different route, leaving the HOT lanes populated by people who are more able and willing to pay the toll or meet the HOV requirement?

Those people's comments don't make a whole lot of sense unless they use the road juuussssst outside the current HOV hours, at least not until 2020. If you currently use it during those hours as an HOV, you'll be able to continue doing so with no toll as long as you get an E-ZPass Flex (until 2020 when it goes to HO/T-3). If you don't currently use it at those times because you're an SOV, you'll now have an additional option you didn't have before. True, that will lead to more traffic on the highway, but at least during the afternoon HOV hours, it sure seems like there's excess capacity because I can usually set my cruise control at 65 to 70 mph with no issues. (Morning is a different story. We do not use I-66 during the mornings because it's too slow.) So I don't see why anyone now using the road during HOV hours would be bailing off to other routes until the 3-person requirement kicks in–but we had already been told they planned to do that anyway regardless of the HO/T thing, so it's a bit of a red herring to cite it. If you use the road just outside HOV hours–and, like on I-395, I sometimes see people parked on the shoulder illegally in Rosslyn waiting for 6:30–then you might have a beef because if you want to commute at the same time you'll now have to change your habits. But nothing ever guarantees anyone the right to an unchanging commute.

I think a lot of those commenters are also missing the point that it will not be a 24/7 HO/T operation. The ones bitching about not being able to go to Dulles Airport without paying a toll are just plain stupid. I do, however, think it doesn't help matters having three different sets of HO/T rules on three different local highways located close together.

But in general, your comment is spot-on. The whole point of variable tolling is to manage congestion by raising the tolls to "price out" some drivers. In my admittedly unscientific observation, it seems to work pretty well on the Beltway except when there's a wreck that affects the express lanes. Regardless of what the toll is, during the PM rush hour we always move along between 60 and 70 mph (again, unless there's a wreck) and the general-purpose lanes are almost always at a standstill until after you're past Gallows Road.

[cpzilliacus]

One annoying aspect I recently found on the HO/T lanes that should be self-evident but wasn't something I'd thought much about: Their claim that you lock in your toll rate when you enter the lanes is not strictly accurate. You only lock in your rate when you pass under the first gantry. On August 4, the sign on I-66 advertised $7.75 to Springfield, but we hit stopped traffic right at the bottom of the ramp (none of the advance signage warned of it) and it took ten minutes to reach the first gantry. We were charged $8.60. That's not enough of a difference for me to complain to them and make a stink about it, but it does underscore one flaw with putting all the gantries over the road instead of the exit/entrance ramps–if you hit stopped traffic, you're not assured of getting the advertised toll rate. I would have been a lot more annoyed if the toll had spiked to $11.40 or so!

My understanding is that you do "lock in" a price on the I-495 HOV/Toll lanes when you enter - but not the I-95/I-395 reversible HOV/Toll lanes, which is why the dynamic message signs display prices to the users of those lanes giving them the opportunity to exit if the price is too high.

Still, this does not excuse them for charging you a premium price when you got less than a premium trip.

[cpzilliacus]

Some of the comments on today's Washington Post article amount to how the drivers will take other routes than 66 once the HOT system goes live, but isn't that a core (if often unmentioned) element of HOT lanes, which is that drivers will simply not make certain trips, or make the same trip on a different route, leaving the HOT lanes populated by people who are more able and willing to pay the toll or meet the HOV requirement?

I prefer to say  that the HOV/Toll lanes are supposed to provide a good level-of-service to those that pay or comply with the  HOV requirement. 

There is only so much  capacity.

But it's pretty  clear to me that the HOV/Toll lanes, when properly managed, will serve more traffic and person trips then the current system of allocating capacity by means of miserable and recurring congestion, especially for eastbound movements past the exit ramp at Exit 69 and the entry from Sycamore Street.

[1995hoo]

One annoying aspect I recently found on the HO/T lanes that should be self-evident but wasn't something I'd thought much about: Their claim that you lock in your toll rate when you enter the lanes is not strictly accurate. You only lock in your rate when you pass under the first gantry. On August 4, the sign on I-66 advertised $7.75 to Springfield, but we hit stopped traffic right at the bottom of the ramp (none of the advance signage warned of it) and it took ten minutes to reach the first gantry. We were charged $8.60. That's not enough of a difference for me to complain to them and make a stink about it, but it does underscore one flaw with putting all the gantries over the road instead of the exit/entrance ramps–if you hit stopped traffic, you're not assured of getting the advertised toll rate. I would have been a lot more annoyed if the toll had spiked to $11.40 or so!

My understanding is that you do "lock in" a price on the I-495 HOV/Toll lanes when you enter - but not the I-95/I-395 reversible HOV/Toll lanes, which is why the dynamic message signs display prices to the users of those lanes giving them the opportunity to exit if the price is too high.

Still, this does not excuse them for charging you a premium price when you got less than a premium trip.

They do say it's when you enter, but practically speaking, the system doesn't know you've entered until you pass under the first gantry, at which time you lock in your rate for the trip (I-495) or for that segment (I-95). So if, like it did for us that day, it takes ten minutes to reach the "lock-in point," the rate may change before you lock it.

[cpzilliacus]

They do say it's when you enter, but practically speaking, the system doesn't know you've entered until you pass under the first gantry, at which time you lock in your rate for the trip (I-495) or for that segment (I-95). So if, like it did for us that day, it takes ten minutes to reach the "lock-in point," the rate may change before you lock it.

That's an  excellent and correct observation.  The tolling points were presumably kept to a minimum (just enough to allow Transurban to collect its revenue), which means that an incident that impacts traffic could cause patrons to be charged for a fast trip that turned out to be  very slow.

[jeffandnicole]

I can see it's one of those things where because the difference is so low, no one will make waves about it.  But in the aggregate, the amount of additional money brought it would be huge.  This is one of those cases where someone could file a lawsuit, have it brought up to class action status, and convince the company that they need to provide transponder readers at the sign's location, not downstream where pricing adjustments can occur.

Or, change the pricing on the sign, but allow for a delay for motorists to reach the first transponder.

Is it true that the pricing can go down by the time you reach the first transponder?  I would think so.  But that doesn't mean they can charge more than advertised when the prices go up.

[AlexandriaVA]

How would it be any different from when you get an estimate from a plumber, but the actual total turns out to be different based on various factors. You don't get to not pay the plumber just because his estimate was different than the actual invoice. I suppose there could be a giant asterisk next to the gantry that indicates that the price shown is the current price and is subject to change without notice.

[jeffandnicole]

How would it be any different from when you get an estimate from a plumber, but the actual total turns out to be different based on various factors. You don't get to not pay the plumber just because his estimate was different than the actual invoice. I suppose there could be a giant asterisk next to the gantry that indicates that the price shown is the current price and is subject to change without notice.

Because the pricing sign isn't an estimate.  And a good plumber tells you when the prices will increase based on those various factors.

Their website:  https://www.expresslanes.com/pricing

And the specific language used on the website: 

You will see signs in advance of Express Lanes entry points letting you know the price to travel in the lanes. When you pass under a pricing sign, you lock in your toll rate until the last exit shown on the sign

[vdeane]

Continuing with the plumber analogy, if he guarantees you a rate, and then tries to increase it, you're probably going to sue the crap out of him.

[1995hoo]

Continuing with the plumber analogy, if he guarantees you a rate, and then tries to increase it, you're probably going to sue the crap out of him.

The difference there, I think, is that his hourly labor rate is not the same thing as a job estimate.

[AlexandriaVA]

Continuing with the plumber analogy, if he guarantees you a rate, and then tries to increase it, you're probably going to sue the crap out of him.

The difference there, I think, is that his hourly labor rate is not the same thing as a job estimate.

My point exactly...if the plumber says that he "thinks" it will be $150 and it winds up being higher, you still have to pay that invoice.

Now, if you drove under the gantry when the price was $2.00 and you actually got billed for $3.00, then that's an error and should be remedied. However, if you're given information that the toll is $1.50, and by the time you actually under the gantry it has risen to $2.00, and you're billed for $2.00, then I don't see an error. I view the gantry-provided information as a good-faith estimate.

[vdeane]

But TransUrban claims it's a guarantee, which is the point.  Think of the plumber saying "the entire job will cost $150, not a penny more, guaranteed" (ignore the fact that plumbers give estimates for the sake of argument) and then charging $200.

[1995hoo]

Ultimately the point vdeane makes is why I think the gantry should be over the ramp (or right at the start of the lanes/segment, as appropriate). I daresay that might speed up till processing, too, since it'd work like any ticket system toll road if your transponder were only read twice.

BTW, as I noted, the 85¢ difference between what the sign said and what we paid wasn't enough to get me overly mad, but if it had been a $3 or $4 difference, that'd be a different story.

[AlexandriaVA]

Just visited their website, and I see the point. I think all they'll have to do is change the lexicon to the gantry (instead of toll sign) and include a disclaimer that tolls may change between the last time you saw a price sign and when the toll is charged.

That said, I think contingencies under Hoo's situation would probably fall under some sort of redress opportunity (assuming they don't have immunity from such claims), for people who were gauranteed a price and then not charged that price.

[mtantillo]

I think the way it is supposed to work is that the price on the sign changes, and if it takes X seconds to drive from the sign to the gantry, then the price displayed on the sign will not be enforced by the gantry for X seconds later.

So if the price on the sign changes at 9:00:20, and it takes 30 seconds to drive from the sign to the gantry, then the gantry should charge the old price and not the new price until 9:00:50. Of course, the system is designed to keep traffic moving at full speed all the time, and it is not designed for it to take 10 minutes to reach the gantry from the sign. That is poor management of the lanes and traffic, and you should complain, IMO.

Note that on the I-66-inside the Beltway project, there is a 5th gantry on the EB lanes of 267 just east of 123. Unlike the 4 mainline gantries on I-66 itself, the one on 267 will not charge a toll itself, but will simply lock in the appropriate toll rate for cars entering prior to passing under 1, 2, or 3 of the gantries on I-66. This was included in the plans presumably because traffic is so bad on 267 east that it can take a very long time to reach the first toll gantry from the 267/123 interchange. They had a special name for this gantry, and I forget what it is called. But they made it very clear in the literature that tolls are not charged for use of 267, only for I-66, but that this gantry was needed to record entries from 267.

[1995hoo]

The map I saw on Dr. Gridlock's blog called the one you mention the "Registration" gantry.


Edited to add: I just looked at my E-ZPass statement and my two tolls (in my wife's car) from August 1 on I-495 and I-95 just posted yesterday, August 16. That's a ridiculous delay.

[1995hoo]

Following up on the issue about the rate sign versus the gantry, tonight I kept an eye on my trip odometer from the final rate sign prior to the Beltway on westbound I-66 to the first gantry in the southbound HO/T lanes. It's 1.5 miles. So it's understandable why there can be an issue when the traffic is heavy. More so if you enter at Braddock Road, where it's about two miles, or if you use the southern end of the I-95 lanes, where going northbound it's about eight miles before the gantry (although I haven't heard of any northbound delays there). All the more reason why it seems like it'd make more sense just to have the gantries over the ramps or entrances/exits.

Edited to add: BTW, obviously you need gantries over the points where you move between segments on I-95. Adding that because if I don't, someone will "correct" me to do so, though clearly my focus was on a different issue.

[cpzilliacus]

Washington Post: Whatever they call it, you pay more to go faster

This issue of toll roads and carpool lanes will not only linger for years in Virginia, but also across the Potomac River, where it will spawn debates in Maryland.

This past week, a group of civic, business and political leaders in Maryland launched a campaign for improvements to I-270 that includes adding toll lanes. In making their pitch, several leaders of Fix270Now cited what Virginia has been doing in creating a network of HOT lanes.

And right now, Virginia is proceeding with the extension of that network onto I-66 and the rest of I-395, exposing the Annandale community to this style of highway travel in virtually all directions.

It's difficult to know exactly what the road system for the 21st century will wind up looking like. Driverless cars, ride hailing and quicker access to information about travel options will revolutionize our thinking.