Short yellows at Chicago's red light cameras

[tradephoric]

The dangers of red light cameras in a corrupt city:

[hotdogPi]

At least they're not designing the lights so that it intentionally turns red just before you get through (it will always change 0.05 seconds before you get there).

[roadman65]

In Florida we have a short green time at most signals to tempt people to run the lights.  The biggest tempter is on NB OBT at Lanstreet Road.  You have to wait two or three light changes to just make it to the intersection, so many are weary by now, so the temptation is there now just waiting for Orange County and the rotten scum camera owners to collect money from your wallet. 

[SteveG1988]

Sounds like what NJ went through with their red light cameras

[Mr Downtown]

Those "yellow lights shorter than 3 seconds" turn out to be . . . .

2.94 seconds.

That might be a scandal on big suburban arterials, but not so much in the city, where the speed limit is 30 mph and no street is wider than 76 feet.

[wxfree]

At least they're not designing the lights so that it intentionally turns red just before you get through (it will always change 0.05 seconds before you get there).

That's a great idea.  It can't be that big a technical challenge.  I wonder if anyone plans to start doing that soon.

[Brandon]

Here's the other thread: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=12949.0

[Brandon]

Those "yellow lights shorter than 3 seconds" turn out to be . . . .

2.94 seconds.

That might be a scandal on big suburban arterials, but not so much in the city, where the speed limit is 30 mph and no street is wider than 76 feet.

However, it is a big problem when you start handing out tickets over it.

[jeffandnicole]

Those "yellow lights shorter than 3 seconds" turn out to be . . . .

2.94 seconds.

That might be a scandal on big suburban arterials, but not so much in the city, where the speed limit is 30 mph and no street is wider than 76 feet.

Sorry: The minimum for a yellow light is 3 seconds, not "close to" 3 seconds.  And what does width have to do with it?  Traffic light timings are based on posted speed and/or 85th percentile speeds.  Not width of roadway.

[PurdueBill]

Those "yellow lights shorter than 3 seconds" turn out to be . . . .

2.94 seconds.

That might be a scandal on big suburban arterials, but not so much in the city, where the speed limit is 30 mph and no street is wider than 76 feet.

If they're going to hand out $$$ tickets to people after decreasing the yellow time at all, never mind to below standard, then they deserve all the shaming they can get.  Too bad the tickets they issued are probably going to stand.  When increasing yellow time leads to decreased accident frequency and severity while decreasing it leads to increased $$$ for the city coffers and the city chooses the latter, it's plain what the city's interest is.  Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, et al. would be disgusted.

[hm insulators]

Wasn't there something I saw the other day (perhaps on Yahoo News?) about some Illinois state officials complaining because the drivers were obeying the speed limit and the cameras weren't triggered because the drivers were obeying the law?

Hell, if people are driving more carefully and obeying the law, they should be having a party, with cake and balloons and champagne and naked dancing girls and confetti!

Okay, maybe they can leave out the naked dancing girls.

[Brandon]

Wasn't there something I saw the other day (perhaps on Yahoo News?) about some Illinois state officials complaining because the drivers were obeying the speed limit and the cameras weren't triggered because the drivers were obeying the law?

Hell, if people are driving more carefully and obeying the law, they should be having a party, with cake and balloons and champagne and naked dancing girls and confetti!

Okay, maybe they can leave out the naked dancing girls.

Welcome to Illinois, The Land of the Absurd.  This is the state where we have a mayor of a major city wanting to use traffic fines to fill the holes in his budget.  This is the state where we have an operators union trying to diminish the roles and duties of surveyors and engineers.  This is the state that comes in last in funding pensions and is in a huge hole (50 out of 50) with its budget.

It's the most fucked up state in the union, and that's even considering and including California.

[US71]

Sounds like what NJ went through with their red light cameras

And Springfield, MO

[jeffandnicole]

Sounds like what NJ went through with their red light cameras

And Springfield, MO

The intersection which sparked the investigation regarding short yellows is in Glassboro, NJ, where it was clearly documented that the yellow was under 3 seconds for the side street (the main street is NJ 47, and there doesn't appear to be an issue with that road's yellow). 

While 3 seconds would be the minimum for a 25 mph roadway, which is the speed limit for one of the side streets, the other side had its speed limit raised from 25 mph to 35 mph at some point prior to the red light camera installation. This would require a 3.5 second yellow, and per NJ's rules, the minimum yellow would be rounded up to 4 seconds.  As part of the application process, the town was supposed to document the light, and the short yellow should had been noted at that time.  Of course, it wasn't.

When the boro was told about the issue, of course they side-stepped any question that clearly showed they were in the wrong.  And the lovely newspaper in the area has a recent history of kissing ass with the local politicians, so they aren't in any position to actually serve the public and do a deep and thorough investigation about how it happened.

NJ's red light program 'test' is 5 years in length, and those 5 years are up in December.  A law would have to be passed to continue the program.  As of now, no one has even proposed such a law. Most politicians in Trenton appear to be opposed to continuing the program.  The governor has indicated he may not sign a law to continue it.  Even the politician that is most in favor of continuing the program hasn't written a bill, and he has publically stated (by law) that he has received campaign contributions from the red light camera lobbyists, including those under investigation in other states, so everyone clearly sees his interests.

[Brandon]

Yep, The Rahmfather is pissy not enough people speed in Chicago.

Speed Cameras Net City $50M Less Than Expected

Chicagoans are costing the city tens of millions of dollars -— through good behavior.
You heard that right: Good behavior is bad for the budget. Real bad, reports CBS 2 Chief Correspondent Jay Levine.
Remember the old P.T. Barnum line about no one ever going broke by underestimating the intelligence of the American people? Well, Mayor Rahm Emanuel underestimated the intelligence of Chicago drivers, and the city paid for it big time.

CBS 2 has learned the speed cameras caught far fewer speeders than expected.
According to the Mayor's 2015 Budget Overview, there have been "lower than expected violation rates."
How much lower? Fifty million dollars lower. Emanuel's administration had figured on $90 million in fines to help balance this year's budget, but they can only count on $40 million. That's a $50 million shortfall, putting pressure on the next spending plan.

The city was expecting a nearly $100 million windfall by flooding the city with the speed cameras, using proximity to schools and parks as justification. The speed camera on Irving Park is listed as close to Challenger Park, which actually looks more like a parking lot – and is, during Cubs games.
At Clark and Irving, the strobe light of a red-light camera flashed 14 times in the 10 minutes CBS 2 watched. You do the math.
Critics have said red-light cameras don't enhance safety and are more of a cash grab for the city government.
A report by Inspector General Joe Ferguson maintained "the City cannot prove red-light camera locations are based on safety considerations."
And a University of Illinois at Chicago study concluded "red light cameras are not effective in improvingsafety."
It may be too soon to tell if speed cameras have made us safer. But drivers have certainly gotten wise to them, leaving a $50 million dollar hole in this year's budget.

All I have to say is, "Fuck you, Rahm!".

[SidS1045]

This is the state where we have a mayor of a major city wanting to use traffic fines to fill the holes in his budget.

...and this is unique...how?

The only difference between Rahm Emanuel and hundreds of other mayors, governors, county executives, etc., who count on traffic fines as part of their budgets, is that Emanuel said it so everyone could hear it.  25 or so years ago Gov. Michael Dukakis of Massachusetts said exactly the same thing.

In order to get this money they're counting on, they need drivers to break the law.  If that isn't a prime example of bass-ackwards thinking, it's hard to imagine what is.

[Brandon]

Roh-roh, dissent in the ranks.

Aldermen question speed cameras

Aldermen on Wednesday raised questions about the speed camera ticketing system rolled out this year by Mayor Rahm Emanuel, asking whether it is the best way to slow traffic and whether it is following state law.

Ald. Willie Cochran, 20th, raised the issue during hearings on Emanuel's proposed 2015 budget when Inspector General Joseph Ferguson, whose duties include auditing administration programs, was testifying.

"We are all faced with our communities coming to us, (saying) that we want speed humps in our neighborhood to control traffic, we want to slow down traffic in our neighborhoods," Cochran said. "But on the other hand, we have a community that also is irate about the speed cameras in the communities, and with where they are placed."

Later, Ald. John Arena, 45th, raised the issue of whether the program was complying with state law, which requires that tickets be issued only when children are in the area.

[roadfro]

And what does width have to do with it?  Traffic light timings are based on posted speed and/or 85th percentile speeds.  Not width of roadway.

Actually, ITE recommendations for the red clearance interval is a function of 15th percentile speed and the width of the intersection.

Yep, The Rahmfather is pissy not enough people speed in Chicago.

Speed Cameras Net City $50M Less Than Expected

And that there is the problem. I'm somewhat indifferent on the use of red light cameras, but you it's irresponsible to depend on the revenue from them in a municipal budget.

[Zeffy]

Yep, The Rahmfather is pissy not enough people speed in Chicago.

Speed Cameras Net City $50M Less Than Expected

And that there is the problem. I'm somewhat indifferent on the use of red light cameras, but you it's irresponsible to depend on the revenue from them in a municipal budget.

Really? Chicago has gone to shit so far now that they are depending on people breaking the law to fill their coffers? That's... great. In other words, make more people suffer so the city doesn't start sinking like Detroit.

[jeffandnicole]

And what does width have to do with it?  Traffic light timings are based on posted speed and/or 85th percentile speeds.  Not width of roadway.

Actually, ITE recommendations for the red clearance interval is a function of 15th percentile speed and the width of the intersection.

But the issue at hand is the timing of the yellow light, not the all-red clearance (which I wasn't absolutely clear about, but since we were talking about the yellow light, I figured "Yellow" didn't need to be repeated)

[Brandon]

Yep, The Rahmfather is pissy not enough people speed in Chicago.

Speed Cameras Net City $50M Less Than Expected

And that there is the problem. I'm somewhat indifferent on the use of red light cameras, but you it's irresponsible to depend on the revenue from them in a municipal budget.

Really? Chicago has gone to shit so far now that they are depending on people breaking the law to fill their coffers? That's... great. In other words, make more people suffer so the city doesn't start sinking like Detroit.

Chicago's finances make Detroit look good.  At least Detroit admitted it has a problem.  Chicago has yet to do so.

[roadfro]

And what does width have to do with it?  Traffic light timings are based on posted speed and/or 85th percentile speeds.  Not width of roadway.

Actually, ITE recommendations for the red clearance interval is a function of 15th percentile speed and the width of the intersection.

But the issue at hand is the timing of the yellow light, not the all-red clearance (which I wasn't absolutely clear about, but since we were talking about the yellow light, I figured "Yellow" didn't need to be repeated)

I realize we were talking about yellow lights, but was just showing an example that not all traffic signal timing is based solely on speeds alone. Yellow time also includes a term based on roadway gradient, in addition to the speed factor.

[SidS1045]

Roh-roh, dissent in the ranks.

Aldermen question speed cameras

Aldermen on Wednesday raised questions about the speed camera ticketing system rolled out this year by Mayor Rahm Emanuel, asking whether it is the best way to slow traffic and whether it is following state law.

Ald. Willie Cochran, 20th, raised the issue during hearings on Emanuel's proposed 2015 budget when Inspector General Joseph Ferguson, whose duties include auditing administration programs, was testifying.

"We are all faced with our communities coming to us, (saying) that we want speed humps in our neighborhood to control traffic, we want to slow down traffic in our neighborhoods," Cochran said. "But on the other hand, we have a community that also is irate about the speed cameras in the communities, and with where they are placed."

Later, Ald. John Arena, 45th, raised the issue of whether the program was complying with state law, which requires that tickets be issued only when children are in the area.

Chicago aldermen who are actually concerned with obeying the law.  What a fresh, original idea.

I can guarantee that at this moment Richard J. Daley is turning over in his grave.

[Brandon]

This is just begging for a lawsuit.

City will keep $7.7M from quiet change to red light camera tickets

Mayor Rahm Emanuel's administration will not refund $7.7 million in red light camera tickets it collected after quietly lowering the yellow light standard, the city's transportation chief said Tuesday.

The mayor told the Tribune earlier this month that he would consider refunds, but Chicago Department of Transportation chief Rebekah Scheinfeld made it clear that would not be happening – even though the city made a determination in September to restore the longer yellow light standard.

"These were violations of the law, they were legitimate tickets and we stand behind them," Scheinfeld said at a City Council hearing on red light cameras. "But going forward we want to make sure the situation is not distracted with continuing questions about this, and that we have full public confidence."

No, if the yellows were shorter than the minimum standard for them, they are not legitimate tickets.

The city had previously ordered its longtime camera vendor, Redflex Traffic Systems Inc., to throw out any tickets if the yellow light interval fell below the city's three-second standard, according to city Inspector General Joseph Ferguson. But when new vendor Xerox State & Local Traffic Solutions took over for the fired Redflex in February, the city directed the vendor to accept tickets that showed yellow light times above 2.9 seconds, Ferguson said in a recent review prompted by Tribune stories.


Scheinfeld told aldermen Tuesday that the decision was based on the advice of "professional engineers" working for CDOT but did not identify who specifically in the Emanuel administration ordered Xerox to go with the lower standard.

I'd (as I am a member of the Illinois Society of Professional Engineers (ISPE) and a chapter president) like to know the names and numbers of the so-called "professional engineers" so the Illinois Department of Financial and Professional Regulation (IDFPR) can investigate and fine them.  We cannot tolerate people acting as professional engineers and endangering the lives of millions with these shorter yellow light times.

Don Bransford, a red light camera critic who testified at the hearing, said the extra $7.7 million "coincidentally" helped the city meet projected red light camera revenue for the year. But Scheinfeld said the decision was made by CDOT based on engineering standards "independent ... of the Department of Finance."

It is, and always has been about the almighty dollar.

"I love the red light cameras," said Ald. Deb Mell, 33rd. "I think it's great. I think people drive too fast in the city."

So sayeth the sister-in-law to convicted former Governor Rod Blagojevich.

[jeffandnicole]

"I love the red light cameras," said Ald. Deb Mell, 33rd. "I think it's great. I think people drive too fast in the city."

So sayeth the sister-in-law to convicted former Governor Rod Blagojevich.

Does this mean that slow drivers don't get red light tickets?

Back to the main part of the article...all it takes is one person to file a suit; ask the judge to bring it to class-action status, and suddenly the city has some serious legal issues on their hands.