As the World Embraces Diesels, Americans Still Play Hard to Get

[Brandon]

The only diesel vehicles you notice being diesel regularly are either school buses or...

It's very possible you have diesel cars next to you in traffic every week without realizing it.

Oh, I realize it.  I realize it every time I try to breathe next to them.  Newer ones are better, but the older ones and the trucks are terrible for the soot.

[cpzilliacus]

Oh, I realize it.  I realize it every time I try to breathe next to them.  Newer ones are better, but the older ones and the trucks are terrible for the soot.

But even the oldest and dirtiest Diesel engines on the road today (maybe the two-stroke Series 71 Diesel motors built by Detroit Diesel, though there are not that many left in service) got much cleaner when the sulfur content was reduced by USEPA rule in 2006 or 2007 in the 49 states not covered by the California Air Resources Board (commonly called ULSD, ultra-low sulfur Diesel fuel).

[corco]

Here in the USA, one also has to factor in EPA (federal 'Environmental Protection Agency') emissions limit rules.  Their latest 'Tier' of limits ('Tier IV?') are so low that they are now stretching the very capabilities of diesel engine tech to their breaking point, not just in cars but in big-rig trucks, buses, railroad locomotives, off-road heavy construction equipment and so forth, such that any further rule tightening may be physically impossible for diesel engines to ever be able to meet.

Mike

Though it should be noted that EPA Tier IV standards are still not nearly as strict as Euro 6 standards, so that can't be what accounts for everybody in the EU driving a diesel and everybody in the US driving a petrol, or that the technology will have to keep up anyway as long as folks want to do business in Europe.

[SSOWorld]

The only thing now that American diesels are good for nowadays is rolling coal.

[Brandon]

Oh, I realize it.  I realize it every time I try to breathe next to them.  Newer ones are better, but the older ones and the trucks are terrible for the soot.

But even the oldest and dirtiest Diesel engines on the road today (maybe the two-stroke Series 71 Diesel motors built by Detroit Diesel, though there are not that many left in service) got much cleaner when the sulfur content was reduced by USEPA rule in 2006 or 2007 in the 49 states not covered by the California Air Resources Board (commonly called ULSD, ultra-low sulfur Diesel fuel).

It's not the sulfur content, it's the exhaust and soot.

[Stratuscaster]

RE: resale values on Ram diesel trucks - it's not so much that it's a diesel, but that it's a Cummins diesel.

Nissan's new Titan XD trucks will offer a new Cummins light-duty diesel (that was destined for Ram, but dropped during the auto industry meltdown/bankruptcy.)

I think the only domestic automaker offering a diesel-powered car today is GM - with a VM Motori-supplied diesel in the Chevy Cruze. Ram has the 1500 EcoDiesel and Jeep has a Grand Cherokee EcoDiesel. GM and Ford have their diesel pickups. Otherwise you go to Mercedes and BMW and VW (and maybe a couple others I'm forgetting.)

A friend purchased a VW Passat TDi a couple years back. It was warranty approved to use biodiesel up to B5. About the same time, Illinois approved a law for providing an incentive to sell B11 biodiesel. The incentive gives complete fuel tax exemption for any blend of biodiesel greater than 10 percent, making Illinois a unique state where B11 is found everywhere. And now my friend had nowhere to purchase fuel for his car without voiding his warranty - never mind the fact that there were few stations that sold diesel in the first place between his home and work.

VW had to test, approve and extend warranty coverage so consumers could use B11 in their VW TDi cars.

[Duke87]

But even the oldest and dirtiest Diesel engines on the road today (maybe the two-stroke Series 71 Diesel motors built by Detroit Diesel, though there are not that many left in service) got much cleaner when the sulfur content was reduced by USEPA rule in 2006 or 2007 in the 49 states not covered by the California Air Resources Board (commonly called ULSD, ultra-low sulfur Diesel fuel).

This, by the way, is why diesel is now more expensive than gasoline in the US when for a long time it was the other way around. The extra refining costs to get the sulfur out drive the price up.


As for why Americans don't buy diesel cars, well, I'd say it's simply that we've never had much reason to. A lot of European countries for whatever reason decided they were going to tax the bejesus out of gasoline but go a bit less hard on diesel fuel. This drove a lot of customers to get diesel cars in order to save on fuel costs. In the US this motivation doesn't particularly exist, so the market never moved in that direction.

[NJRoadfan]

Though it should be noted that EPA Tier IV standards are still not nearly as strict as Euro 6 standards, so that can't be what accounts for everybody in the EU driving a diesel and everybody in the US driving a petrol, or that the technology will have to keep up anyway as long as folks want to do business in Europe.

A US market diesel built to EPA Tier II Bin 5 limits meets or exceeds Euro 6 standards if I'm reading the docs right. The US EPA and CARB has always had stricter NOx and particulate emissions standards compared to Europe. The EPA also holds gas and diesel engines to the same standard while the emissions standards differ by fuel type in Europe.

Getting NOx emissions down to acceptable limits in diesels is where most of the cost comes from in the emissions treatment systems. VW managed to do it in their smaller cars with a fancy system that traps and burns particulates (they run richer to reduce NOx). In their larger cars and most everyone else's diesels, they rely on selective catalytic reduction and using Urea injection (BlueTEC) to neutralize the NOx.

If it wasn't for stricter standards on the horizon in Europe, car manufacturers likely wouldn't have put all that R&D into cleaner diesels since US market sales alone wouldn't have amortized the cost.

[english si]

Oh, I realize it.  I realize it every time I try to breathe next to them.  Newer ones are better, but the older ones and the trucks are terrible for the soot.

But even the oldest and dirtiest Diesel engines on the road today (maybe the two-stroke Series 71 Diesel motors built by Detroit Diesel, though there are not that many left in service) got much cleaner when the sulfur content was reduced by USEPA rule in 2006 or 2007 in the 49 states not covered by the California Air Resources Board (commonly called ULSD, ultra-low sulfur Diesel fuel).

It's not the sulfur content, it's the exhaust and soot.[/quote]It was the sulfur when there was sulfur in diesel. But it was just the sulfur and there's still the issues of NOx, and PM10 (and other particulates).

A US market diesel built to EPA Tier II Bin 5 limits meets or exceeds Euro 6 standards if I'm reading the docs right. The US EPA and CARB has always had stricter NOx and particulate emissions standards compared to Europe.

And bingo, we have why the US doesn't do diesel cars in a big way - because it way more advanced that Europe here!

In Europe (though I suspect the tide is beginning to turn) that diesels don't emit quite as much CO2 convinced lawmakers, obsessed with only that one pollutant thanks to a warped environmental narrative that went all in to trying to stop climate change and treating that as trumping almost* every other green cause (like clean air), to give serious tax breaks to diesel and make it cheaper and thus encourage diesel car usage.

*not no nuclear power, however - because they confuse nuclear power with nuclear bombs and also the green movement in Western Europe has political roots in Communist groups, who felt there was no need to defend the West against Soviet bombs.

[cpzilliacus]

Oh, I realize it.  I realize it every time I try to breathe next to them.  Newer ones are better, but the older ones and the trucks are terrible for the soot.

But even the oldest and dirtiest Diesel engines on the road today (maybe the two-stroke Series 71 Diesel motors built by Detroit Diesel, though there are not that many left in service) got much cleaner when the sulfur content was reduced by USEPA rule in 2006 or 2007 in the 49 states not covered by the California Air Resources Board (commonly called ULSD, ultra-low sulfur Diesel fuel).

It's not the sulfur content, it's the exhaust and soot.

Soot (or to use emissions geek-speak, PM10 (particulate matter 10 microns or less in size) or the smaller PM2.5) in Diesel engine emissions comes from two things - sulfur in the fuel, and unburned Diesel fuel.

Sulfur has been reduced probably as low as it can go (Diesels, as I understand it, need a little sulfur in the fuel).  Black clouds of smoke are unburned fuel, so any idiot that tinkers with his engine (in particular the fuel injectors) to allow "coal rolling" is literally sending lots of unburned fuel out the exhaust.  It is illegal at the federal level to emit such amounts of smoke, and also illegal in some states, but there is not much enforcement, as few law enforcement officers have the equipment to do a roadside check for exhaust opacity to see if the vehicle is in violation.

Modern Diesels do not smoke much if they are in proper running condition. Mine smokes if I have to start it on a cold morning and the engine block heater was not plugged-in, but even then, the smoke goes away pretty quickly as the block heats up.

[cpzilliacus]

In Europe (though I suspect the tide is beginning to turn) that diesels don't emit quite as much CO2 convinced lawmakers, obsessed with only that one pollutant thanks to a warped environmental narrative that went all in to trying to stop climate change and treating that as trumping almost* every other green cause (like clean air), to give serious tax breaks to diesel and make it cheaper and thus encourage diesel car usage.

*not no nuclear power, however - because they confuse nuclear power with nuclear bombs and also the green movement in Western Europe has political roots in Communist groups, who felt there was no need to defend the West against Soviet bombs.

Agreed.

The frantic opposition to the construction of the Øresund Bridge-Tunnel in the 1980's and early 1990's was in large part centered in anti-nuclear and Communist groups (the Swedish Communists opposing the crossing on direct orders from Moscow up until the time that the Soviet Union went out of business).

[cpzilliacus]

This, by the way, is why diesel is now more expensive than gasoline in the US when for a long time it was the other way around. The extra refining costs to get the sulfur out drive the price up.

Agreed.

As for why Americans don't buy diesel cars, well, I'd say it's simply that we've never had much reason to. A lot of European countries for whatever reason decided they were going to tax the bejesus out of gasoline but go a bit less hard on diesel fuel. This drove a lot of customers to get diesel cars in order to save on fuel costs. In the US this motivation doesn't particularly exist, so the market never moved in that direction.

CAFE rules (which apparently are strictly based on miles-per-gallon or liters-per-100-km) would seem to make Diesels attractive to the car companies in meeting such standards. 

As for why Americans do not purchase Diesels in passenger cars, I can come up with a suggestion from many years ago (early 1980's)  - the incredibly unreliable Diesel engines that GM put in some of its cars (mostly Oldsmobile, also other GM marques). 

More on the GM/Olds Diesel 5.7L (350 cid) engines here.

[Takumi]

An old Top Gear episode (1991, long before it became a comedy show) where a younger Jeremy Clarkson talks about buying diesel cars.

[SteveG1988]

Inb4 Bugo says

"no such thing as clean diesel, all diesel makes me gag therefore is dirty"

Diesel has come a long way.

Where i worked i drove a 1990 Freightliner FLD with a 10L I6 cummins indirect injected turbo diesel, only blew out smoke when you floored it and only a small puff of smoke. That was due to a bit of lag in the system from the mechanical fuel injection system.

Rollin coal will never go away, neither will people cutting their cats off. Same "gain" in their mind "epa=bad....reduces power!" in reality it doesn't do much for power, and will cause your turbo to get crud covered rather rapidly thanks to the soot going through it.

[Road Hog]

The reason big trucks use diesel is because diesel is more efficient and the mileage is better. If a big truck used gasoline, it would have to stop for refueling many instances more at great cost to the trucking company and the driver if independent.

[GCrites]

And gas engines wouldn't last nearly as long spinning double the RPM as a diesel.