Open houses for tolling I-80 across Wyoming

[mightyace]

I will stay out of the main debate, as those who frequent this board know my feeling on tolling "free" highways.  (See the Re: Tolling I-80 Not Dead Yet on the plan to toll I-80 in PA)

I am going to address one simple point: Service Plazas.

As I learned researching the I-80 in PA issue and elsewhere on this board, service plazas are not allowed on either new toll roads or free highways converted to toll roads.  Those tollways that have them are "grandfathered" in.

[corco]

I am curious, though, as to what they'd do with US-30 should they decide to toll I-80

[Chris]

^^ I say: "Cimarron Turnpike".

[rawmustard]

As I learned researching the I-80 in PA issue and elsewhere on this board, service plazas are not allowed on either new toll roads or free highways converted to toll roads.  Those tollways that have them are "grandfathered" in.

I was thinking service plazas weren't allowed on federal-aid highways, not necessarily on all new roads, i.e. if entities were to build new roads without federal aid, they could build service plazas if they wanted. I'm not so sure what would happen should federal aid to a highway be removed, which I highly doubt would be the case should one of the existing untolled Interstates somehow get tolled.

[agentsteel53]

I am curious, though, as to what they'd do with US-30 should they decide to toll I-80

probably they'd have to route it up US-287, across Wyoming 28, and down US-191.

[mightyace]

As I learned researching the I-80 in PA issue and elsewhere on this board, service plazas are not allowed on either new toll roads or free highways converted to toll roads.  Those tollways that have them are "grandfathered" in.

I was thinking service plazas weren't allowed on federal-aid highways, not necessarily on all new roads, i.e. if entities were to build new roads without federal aid, they could build service plazas if they wanted.

That makes sense.  It shows how pervasive federal funding has become when you don't consider a highway being built that way.  (Even though I live 3 miles from future TN 840 which is strictly state funded.  )

[thenetwork]

I think if Wyoming does any tolling of I-80, it will be designed just like the modern-day West Virginia Turnpike portion of I-77 -- 3 to 4 barriers at advantageous areas of I-80 across the state with no pro-rated ramp booths in between.

In West Virginia, you can dodge the 3 barriers (the northernmost is the easiest and shortest, the middle, near Pax(?), involves traversing a long, windy 1-1/2 lane road, and the 3rd involves going through Beckley with lots of stop & go) and not have to pay a dime.  The parallel "bypasses" are not really trucker friendly as far as time goes.  For most non-locals, they just man up and pay the tolls.  Granted, the truck traffic is nowhere near the levels found on I-80, but the premise is the same -- the tolling is designed for the non-locals, and like I-80 in Wyoming, most of those that use I-77 are either truck drivers or travelers (especially Canadians) heading South.

[Sykotyk]

There's stretches of that road that isn't even civilized.

I take offense to that! 

The road is fairly heavily congested by long-haul truck traffic. Pretty much every piece of freight headed from the eastern United States to northern California and WA/OR/ID/UT goes across I-80 in Wyoming. It's a very, very important national shipping artery, so truck tolls would generate a fair amount of revenue.

The main objective, as the people of Wyoming see it, is that a giant chunk (if not most) of the traffic on I-80 is out of state traffic, so it's only fair that they should have to pay to drive on it, since they aren't giving taxes to Wyoming.

If I were the boss, I'd heavily toll the area between Rock Springs and Rawlins- that would minimize impact for residents of Wyoming while forcing out of staters to pay. West of Rock Springs, folks generally head to Salt Lake when they need a city, and east of Rawlins and then up in Lander/Riverton they generally associate with Denver, so except for people needing to go from Evanston/Rock Springs to Laramie/Cheyenne for college or government stuff, nobody in Wyoming would ever need to pay a toll

Um, truckers already pay for the road in Wyoming. Commercial fuel tax operates differently than non-commercial. Non-commercial pays at the pump and that state gets the revenue. In commercial fueling, your fuel tax paid at the pump gets lumped together by IFTA, and then redistributed to the states based on where you used the diesel (i.e., which state you drove in and for how many miles). Wyoming's problem is they have one of the cheapest state fuel taxes for diesel in the country at only $0.10 or so a gallon. California is the highest at around $0.47 a gallon. That's also failing to mention the added FHUT paid and the federal diesel tax that finds its way to Wyoming.

If Wyoming would raise their commercial diesel tax they'd have enough to pay for I-80 without tolling it. For instance, 400 miles at 5mpg is $0.02 per mile for the Wyoming fuel tax ($8 to cross the state). At 6mpg, it'd be $6.67. At 7mpg it'd be $5.71. (this isn't including federal fuel tax or FHUT--Federal Highway Usage Tax).


So, raise the diesel tax $0.28 a gallon. Which is right around the national average. And even at 7mpg, the state would be making at least $16 for every truck that crosses the state.

Other problem that Wyoming faces for destroying their roads is they allow higher than the 34,000 pounds per dual axle which is the standard interstate highway weight limit. By allowing an extra 3000+ pounds per dual axle means more weight wearing out the pavement faster. Idaho has the same problem if you've ever driven I-84. The grooves from trucks in state are immense.

The problem with toll is not only are you making people pay for the road via the toll, you have to pay for the equipment and facilities, employees, compliance requirements (i.e., sending bills, letters, fines, paying for officer enforcement, etc), etc.

Raising the diesel and even the gasoline tax will pay for the roads without paying for the 'extra' expenses of tolls. But, unfortunately raising taxes is the last thing any state wants to do. Especially a blood red state like Wyoming.

Sykotyk

[Bickendan]

It's still a toll!  Travelers will avoid I-80 across Wyoming like the plague.  I can't believe businesses along the I-80 are very happy about this prospect.

Only if those travelers don't place a high value on additional travel time/mileage and fuel costs would they avoid a tolled I-80 across Wyoming.

Using an I-15/US 6/I-70/I-76 route to bypass I-80 in Wyoming adds about 130 miles and, because of some lower speed limits and the 2-lane sections along US 6, about 3 hours of travel time.  Assuming a 30 MPG car and $3/gal gas (certainly plausible given it'll be at least a few years before tolling is implemented), that adds about $13 in additional gas costs.

Even if the I-80 toll is limited to the Rock Springs-Rawlins segment, the additional mileage and travel time (via US 191/WY 28/US 287) remains about the same.

Not to mention traffic between Salt Lake and Provo on I-15. That can add a chunk of time to the travel.

[andy3175]

Resurrecting an ancient thread ... tolling I-80 in Wyoming was again discussed at a legislative committee, but further studies are not yet authorized:

Wyoming lawmakers explore possible I-80 expansion
http://www.wyomingnews.com/news/wyoming-lawmakers-explore-possible-i--expansion/article_13b0df68-c5b9-11e6-9bc3-27ec5e078981.html

(During the week of December 19, 2016), Wyoming Department of Transportation's chief engineer Gregg Fredrick told the (legislature's transportation) committee the main option being considered at the moment is building two new lanes — meaning three lanes running in each direction — and tolling commercial trucks that use those lanes.

"What we are not going to do is toll existing interstate facilities,"  Fredrick said.

But before moving ahead with any new construction or tolls, a 2008 feasibility study would need to be updated.

That study explored charging trucks $20 and cars $2 at a toll station between Rawlins and Wamsutter, as well as the possibility of building new truck-only toll lanes.

The levels of traffic, including the number of trucks passing across I-80 each day, has also increased. Construction costs have changed, and inflation has adjusted the actual cost of building new lanes or improving the existing freeway.

Fredrick said that in 2008 the study estimated that $6 billion would be needed to increase lanes across 400 miles of I-80. But Joint Transportation Committee co-chairman Sen. Curt Meier, R-La Grange, speculated the new cost could be more than $10 billion.

The goal of implementing tolls would be to help cover the estimated $6.4 billion cost of maintaining the I-80 corridor through 2038, a total that federal funding does not entirely cover.

WYDOT director Bill Panos told the committee there was a good chance that President-elect Donald Trump's administration would be willing to provide significant funding for an I-80 expansion.

Panos said WYDOT was ready to update the 2008 study but requested that the transportation committee direct it to do so either by allocating additional funding or instructing the department to use its existing funds for an update.

Meier said he believed the Trump administration would be a good partner for the state if it goes ahead with an I-80 expansion and urged the committee to support an update to the study.

"We've got four years, maybe eight years, of somebody who is going to work with Congress and both sides of the aisle and is really ready to do infrastructure redevelopment,"  Meier said. "There's a possibility you're going to spend $300,000 and possibly get $10 (billion) to $15 billion back."

"I want to strike while the iron is hot,"  he said.

But the committee was noncommittal and declined to instruct WYDOT to update the study.

Meier said he would present the question to the committee again in January, by which point it will include several new members.

[DJStephens]

Appears from the article that Wyoming lawmakers are eyeing potential Trump Administration hypothetical transportation spending, which may very well never materialize.   Outside of six-laning a few miles in the Cheyenne metro, does interstate 80 in Wyoming need any other widening?  Traffic (AADT) counts there?  Sounds unnecessary and excessive.   Maybe a few climbing lanes added in gradient areas, instead.   

[Rothman]

Appears from the article that Wyoming lawmakers are eyeing potential Trump Administration hypothetical transportation spending, which may very well never materialize.   

Egads, talk about jumping the gun.  At NYSDOT, the Policy and Planning Division usually keeps tabs on potential additional funding and comes up with hypothetical capital programs accordingly, but that's only after the rumors become confirmed by...people in actual authority rather than people that do not have it quite yet...

Suppose we're talking about legislators rather than executive agencies, but I haven't heard that the NY State Legislature has already started salivating over Trump's "promise."

(personal opinion emphasized)

[andy3175]

Interstate 80 tolling advances in the state senate...

https://www.kpvi.com/news/national_news/wyoming-could-start-charging-i-80-drivers-a-toll-under-senate-backed-bill/article_6b9eb260-3031-5cc8-bf21-5e610fb89e36.html

Wyoming's Senate approved a bill on Friday morning that would allow the state to charge drivers a toll when trekking across Interstate 80.

The Wyoming Department of Transportation faces a multi-million budget deficit. But legislators have been largely adverse to backing any revenue-generating bills.
Senate File 73 has become one of very few tax bills advanced this session to help the cash-strapped state.

The lead sponsor of the bill, Sen. Cale Case, R-Lander, said the proceeds generated from a toll on the state's main east-west thoroughfare would go toward much-needed road and bridge maintenance, traffic safety improvements or wildlife management. ...

The debate over tolls is a familiar one to many in the Legislature. Similar bills have been pitched multiple times, but failed, in years past. But some lawmakers have said this could be the year the Legislature bites at the proposal, given the state's revenue shortfall and ongoing decline in taxes collected from coal, oil and natural gas.

The Wyoming Department of Transportation's shortfall runs upward of $350 million, according to a reported shared with lawmakers in November. The department has experienced recent cuts, including the closure of rest stops and delayed construction projects.

The bill will now move to the House for consideration.

SM-G975U

[The Ghostbuster]

If Interstate 80 is tolled within Wyoming, could they convert the existing rest areas into service areas, with food and fuel options? That would be a practical option if you ask me.

[vdeane]

Yuck on the tolls.  If Wyoming needs more money, then they should have raised the gas tax.

If Interstate 80 is tolled within Wyoming, could they convert the existing rest areas into service areas, with food and fuel options? That would be a practical option if you ask me.

No.  The grandfathering in of the toll road service areas is because they were there prior to the rule prohibiting them, not because of the toll.  In fact, not only are there service areas along former toll roads (I-95 and CT 15), but there are ones on roads that, to the best of my knowledge, were never tolled (I-95/MA 128 and the Major Deegan Expressway/I-87).

[thenetwork]

What sticks in my craw with this proposal is that in many areas, there is no reasonable free parallel alternative to an I-80 tollway -- especially between Rock Springs and Rawlins, aside from a few non-connecting frontage roads that were once former US-30 alignments.  I hope the feds put the kibosh on this idea because of that reason alone.

My job takes me along that I-80 stretch and is one of the only timely ways of getting from Rock Springs to Grand Junction, CO (via WY-789/CO-13/I-70).  The other way is the winding US-191/US-40/CO-139/I-70.  Thank goodness that I only have to do it maybe once a month.

[3467]

Don't they have to get federal approval?

[vdeane]

Don't they have to get federal approval?

Yes, but unless they do something stupid like PA tried with I-80, I don't see why it wouldn't get approval.

[US 89]

I hope Utah is ready to four-lane US 6 to deal with the inevitable increase in traffic that will occur down there.

[The Ghostbuster]

I hate that "prohibition" rule vdeane mentioned, which I was aware of. I think that rule should have either been scrapped long ago, or should not been implemented in the first place.

[JoePCool14]

If Interstate 80 is tolled within Wyoming, could they convert the existing rest areas into service areas, with food and fuel options? That would be a practical option if you ask me.

No.  The grandfathering in of the toll road service areas is because they were there prior to the rule prohibiting them, not because of the toll.  In fact, not only are there service areas along former toll roads (I-95 and CT 15), but there are ones on roads that, to the best of my knowledge, were never tolled (I-95/MA 128 and the Major Deegan Expressway/I-87).

What was the reason behind banning roadside service areas? Was it considered "anti-competitive"?

Also, as an outsider, tolling a rural Interstate out west with no reasonable alternative is absolutely ridiculous.

[Rothman]

I hate that "prohibition" rule vdeane mentioned, which I was aware of. I think that rule should have either been scrapped long ago, or should not been implemented in the first place.

As a taxpayer, I prefer not to be triple whammied.

[Henry]

I hope Utah is ready to four-lane US 6 to deal with the inevitable increase in traffic that will occur down there.

If anything, they'll most likely use I-70 across CO to shunpike the whole thing. A little bit far south, but it's very well-traveled and will be worth it. Conversely, there's I-90 to the north, which does pass through WY, if only in the northeastern corner of the state.

[SD Mapman]

Yuck on the tolls.  If Wyoming needs more money, then they should have raised the gas tax.

I feel like tolls are only slightly easier to sell in this part of the country than tax increases. Out here, if someone wants to kill a project, no matter how good it could be, they just have to say it would raise taxes and it's as dead as a doornail.

[Bobby5280]

I hope Utah is ready to four-lane US 6 to deal with the inevitable increase in traffic that will occur down there.

I think US-6 between Provo/I-15 and Green River/I-70 needs to be upgraded to an Interstate. There is a decent amount of development growth happening on that corridor, but the bigger reason is that's the main gateway between Salt Lake and Denver.