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US 31/I-465 around Indianapolis

Started by hbelkins, October 02, 2016, 07:34:54 PM

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hbelkins

I'm pretty sure that the continuation of US 31 around Indianapolis goes around the east side of the city on I-465, but is that the best route if you're proceeding north on US 31 (or I-65, for that matter) and want to continue north on US 31 toward South Bend? Or would going around the west side of town be the fastest?


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.


theline

As a long-time South Bend resident, I've had plenty of occasions to drive around Indy and continue south on I-65. My preferred route has always been veer off 31 on Keystone Parkway at Carmel and then around the east side of Indy on 465. This was true even when Keystone had several stoplights. Of course, 31 in the Carmel area also had several stoplights back in the day. Perhaps things have changed now that 31 has received the freeway treatment, though Keystone Parkway is nearly a freeway as well. I believe the last stoplight left is at 96th Street.


bmeiser

In my experience, traffic tends to move faster on the west side. More lanes for more miles. But I think the time difference would be very small unless there was some sort of traffic issue.

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2trailertrucker

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hbelkins

Quote from: theline on October 02, 2016, 09:42:39 PM
As a long-time South Bend resident, I've had plenty of occasions to drive around Indy and continue south on I-65. My preferred route has always been veer off 31 on Keystone Parkway at Carmel and then around the east side of Indy on 465. This was true even when Keystone had several stoplights. Of course, 31 in the Carmel area also had several stoplights back in the day. Perhaps things have changed now that 31 has received the freeway treatment, though Keystone Parkway is nearly a freeway as well. I believe the last stoplight left is at 96th Street.

Except if you go around the east side and get off at Keystone Parkway (as I did when traveling to the Edwardsburg meet several years ago) you miss that portion of 31 for clinching purposes. :-p


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

silverback1065

take 31 all the way to 465 and go around the west side, way less traffic. the eastside between 31 and i-70 is pretty congested at evening rush hr. the new 31 is much better than keystone

hbelkins

Plans are to overnight north of the river and take US 31 all the way from the point where it splits with I-65 after a short concurrency to I-465, then loop around and resume traveling north on US 31 where it leaves I-465. I already have all of 465 clinched so it doesn't matter which way I go around the city; just looking for the easiest and fastest way.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

The Ghostbuster

#8
Here is a question: Was it the right decision to remove all state and US highways from going through Indianapolis and routing them all on the 465 beltway, although there are too many to signpost?

US 41

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 03, 2016, 04:23:48 PM
Here is a question: Was it the right decision to remove all state and US highways from going through Indianapolis and routing them all on the 465 beltway, although they are too many to signpost?

Maybe. Some of these highways ran through some sketchy areas however. Indianapolis is currently around the 10th most dangerous city in the US right now. In Terre Haute they rerouted 40 onto SR 46 / I-70. I don't think overall it was the best thing for the city though. I don't think INDOT rerouted highways around Indy (or other towns) because of bad neighborhoods, but it is a valid reason. It was because INDOT simply didn't want to take care of them anymore. I wish the highways still ran through the cities, but it really doesn't make any difference either way I suppose.
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mukade

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 03, 2016, 04:23:48 PM
Here is a question: Was it the right decision to remove all state and US highways from going through Indianapolis and routing them all on the 465 beltway, although they are too many to signpost?

Yes, it absolutely was the right decision. I live north of Indy and was not real happy at first about US 31 leaving Meridian Street thru Indy, but I think there has been no downside at all. There are several things to look at:
- Meridian Street itself is not a of highway quality - the lanes are narrow, left turn lanes are rare, and it travels through residential areas. Some areas have historical significance, so it never could be widened. Other former US and state routes also could never have been significantly upgraded.
- When going to downtown Indy, taking US 31 to I-465 to either I-65 or I-70 is actually faster coming from the north so I never take Meridian anymore.
- Travellers always use freeways so my opinion is that there is no value to maintaining redundant surface street alternates as marked routes. Can you imagine anyone choosing to take US 40 over I-70 from I-465 to downtown Indy, for example?
- I think the city was very much onboard and willingly accepted the INDOT cash. The City of Indianapolis has been upgrading Meridian as fast as INDOT would have.
- The decision to use I-465 for all routes allowed INDOT to completely focus its highway improvement budget on the freeway system.
- As for marked routes going thru higher crime areas at night, that may be true, but that is not a problem unique to Indy. I have not studied crime maps in Indy to see how the old highways overlay those areas, and I don't think that was a major factor in the decision.

The only change I would have liked to have seen would be using Binford Blvd. as a highway and extending that to I-70. I don't think that will ever happen.

As awkward as some of the execution of the INDOT decommissionings through cities have been, the overall concept really does make sense.

NWI_Irish96

Unless you are hitting rush hour, following the routing of 31 around the East side is about 5 minutes faster.
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silverback1065

#12
Quote from: mukade on October 04, 2016, 07:20:00 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 03, 2016, 04:23:48 PM
Here is a question: Was it the right decision to remove all state and US highways from going through Indianapolis and routing them all on the 465 beltway, although they are too many to signpost?

Yes, it absolutely was the right decision. I live north of Indy and was not real happy at first about US 31 leaving Meridian Street thru Indy, but I think there has been no downside at all. There are several things to look at:
- Meridian Street itself is not a of highway quality - the lanes are narrow, left turn lanes are rare, and it travels through residential areas. Some areas have historical significance, so it never could be widened. Other former US and state routes also could never have been significantly upgraded.
- When going to downtown Indy, taking US 31 to I-465 to either I-65 or I-70 is actually faster coming from the north so I never take Meridian anymore.
- Travellers always use freeways so my opinion is that there is no value to maintaining redundant surface street alternates as marked routes. Can you imagine anyone choosing to take US 40 over I-70 from I-465 to downtown Indy, for example?
- I think the city was very much onboard and willingly accepted the INDOT cash. The City of Indianapolis has been upgrading Meridian as fast as INDOT would have.
- The decision to use I-465 for all routes allowed INDOT to completely focus its highway improvement budget on the freeway system.
- As for marked routes going thru higher crime areas at night, that may be true, but that is not a problem unique to Indy. I have not studied crime maps in Indy to see how the old highways overlay those areas, and I don't think that was a major factor in the decision.

The only change I would have liked to have seen would be using Binford Blvd. as a highway and extending that to I-70. I don't think that will ever happen.

As awkward as some of the execution of the INDOT decommissionings through cities have been, the overall concept really does make sense.

I agree, but I would have kept 37 and 31 inside the loop, everything else can go.  kind of surprised west street isn't still a state road between 65 and 70, sign it as SR 270

silverback1065

Quote from: cabiness42 on October 04, 2016, 08:05:03 AM
Unless you are hitting rush hour, following the routing of 31 around the East side is about 5 minutes faster.

people on the east side drive a lot faster than on the west side i feel.  most people are going at least 65 which helps.

Rothman

Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

amroad17

Isn't the main reason all US and state routes were put on I-465 around the city was because of the "capped" mileage that Indiana has with its highways?  Or was it because INDOT wanted to unload these streets that these routes were on to local maintenance?  Ft. Wayne, South Bend, and Muncie have also routed most US and state highways around their cities--not to mention the recent re-routing of US 40 in Terre Haute.
I don't need a GPS.  I AM the GPS! (for family and friends)

mukade

Quote from: amroad17 on October 06, 2016, 03:49:03 AM
Isn't the main reason all US and state routes were put on I-465 around the city was because of the "capped" mileage that Indiana has with its highways?  Or was it because INDOT wanted to unload these streets that these routes were on to local maintenance?  Ft. Wayne, South Bend, and Muncie have also routed most US and state highways around their cities--not to mention the recent re-routing of US 40 in Terre Haute.

That was not a factor at all. The number of miles in the system are not near the cap.

silverback1065

it's just the cost of maintenance and redundancy.

amroad17

Basically INDOT just wanted to unload some of the maintenance to Indianapolis/Marion County for upkeep, correct?  And also to keep through travellers from using the local streets?
I don't need a GPS.  I AM the GPS! (for family and friends)

silverback1065

Quote from: amroad17 on October 07, 2016, 03:32:54 AM
Basically INDOT just wanted to unload some of the maintenance to Indianapolis/Marion County for upkeep, correct?  And also to keep through travellers from using the local streets?

yep, and basically everywhere else for that matter.  in certain instances they couldn't make a deal, like in kokomo with old 31, kokomo wanted to make it like keystone pkwy, INDOT didn't want to give so much money for that to happen, the deal fell through and now we have 931.

Life in Paradise

I'm surprised that they haven't tried this in Evansville yet.  (Of course they may have tried and been rebuffed).  I could see them try to move the east portion of IN 62 to I-69 and Lloyd Expressway, and return Morgan Ave to local control.  They are putting a lot of money into US 41 repavement through town, so they may not want to do that yet.  If they tried and I was a local official, I would howl long and loud, since that would be a money pit for the local government, even if just half of the heavy traffic moved off the road to I-69.

Captain Jack

Quote from: Life in Paradise on October 07, 2016, 01:20:13 PM
I'm surprised that they haven't tried this in Evansville yet.  (Of course they may have tried and been rebuffed).  I could see them try to move the east portion of IN 62 to I-69 and Lloyd Expressway, and return Morgan Ave to local control.  They are putting a lot of money into US 41 repavement through town, so they may not want to do that yet.  If they tried and I was a local official, I would howl long and loud, since that would be a money pit for the local government, even if just half of the heavy traffic moved off the road to I-69.

This has come up before. I personally think the biggest reason they haven't, is there is no other name currently for the road. US 40 in Terre Haute is Wabash, in Indy it's Washington, etc. US 41 through Evansville is only that, and is so entrenched into the local mindset, it would take generations for people to quit referring to it as that. I don't think you can take a road, that is like US 41 in Evansville, and just turn it over to the local government. Seems like it would have to retain at least a state route designation, and is there any real benefit to INDOT to do such a thing if they still have to maintain it as a state highway?

silverback1065

i think i remember seeing somewhere that they want to get rid of diamond and morgan ave. idk what that means for routings, maybe 66 will go down university pkwy to the lloyd and be cosigned to 69 where they'll split off.  isn't 41 known as dixie bee road?

dvferyance

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 03, 2016, 04:23:48 PM
Here is a question: Was it the right decision to remove all state and US highways from going through Indianapolis and routing them all on the 465 beltway, although there are too many to signpost?
I have wondered the same thing myself. It if was such a good idea then why hasn't any other city that has a beltway done it? Columbus has a beltway so does Cincinnati, St Louis, Kansas City, Atlanta ect. none of them did it. Although there are some routes that it made sense like US 52 and US 421 they took an angle route through the city it would be shorter for them to be duplexed on the beltway. However I think US 31 US 36 US 40 IN 37 and IN 67 should have remained going through the city.

Life in Paradise

I think Indiana was foolish to remove state highways through cities.  Sure, the locals mostly know where they are going, but for those that are traveling through, visiting, etc., its a true cluster when you are trying to go to a town the first time, looking at your GPS which shows the highway, but all the signs have been removed!



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