Washington

[Kacie Jane]

You're overthinking it.  If you're going to give it an east-west number, then make it 410, which is what it was before the freeways were built and back when 410 was a US highway.

But personally, I have zero problem with 167's J shape (current or future).  I-5 itself doesn't quite make a J, but definitely a backwards L as it goes around Puget Sound, and 167 is really just an outer beltway of I-5.  The continuity being served isn't all the way from Seattle to Tacoma, but from the Kent/Auburn area to Puyallup and the Port of Tacoma without having to zigzag over to I-5 via the steep hill on SR 18.  (P.S. The north end of 167 is in Renton, not Tukwila.)  Also, it's not suburb-to-exurb.  To get exurbs, you have to go out on 410, or down on the other side of 512.  Anything served by 167 is definitely suburban, not exurbs.

[sparker]

You're overthinking it.  If you're going to give it an east-west number, then make it 410, which is what it was before the freeways were built and back when 410 was a US highway.

But personally, I have zero problem with 167's J shape (current or future).  I-5 itself doesn't quite make a J, but definitely a backwards L as it goes around Puget Sound, and 167 is really just an outer beltway of I-5.  The continuity being served isn't all the way from Seattle to Tacoma, but from the Kent/Auburn area to Puyallup and the Port of Tacoma without having to zigzag over to I-5 via the steep hill on SR 18.  (P.S. The north end of 167 is in Renton, not Tukwila.)  Also, it's not suburb-to-exurb.  To get exurbs, you have to go out on 410, or down on the other side of 512.  Anything served by 167 is definitely suburban, not exurbs.

Once again, I stand corrected (and yes, I occasionally succumb to overthinking!).  In this instance, you're right; 410 would be the optimal number for this extension (it should have been designated over the surface-road section of 167 from the start).  And you're probably right about differentiating exurbs from suburbs -- but in a multiple-center area such as the composite SeaTac region, it can get a bit murky (is Lakewood a suburb of Tacoma -- but an exurb of Seattle?).  Finally, you're correct about the 405/167 interchange being in Renton, not Tukwila; my error (looked at the wrong color in the atlas insert -- my aging eyes aren't what they used to be!  Starting to feel like Arthur Carlson thinking that turkeys could fly (now that reference from 1978 dates me!)

[jakeroot]

Watching some old Almost Live! episodes; came across this bit from one of their 90s episodes. Skip to 31:28 to see the I-90 Floating Bridge before it was finished in the 90s. The EB lanes were using the express lanes while the old bridge was rebuilt (after sinking):

https://youtu.be/xSiSclHEr70

[Bruce]

Is that an HOV lane on the outside of the eastbound lanes? I'm guessing it functioned like the peak-only bus shoulders that I-405 has now.

[jakeroot]

Is that an HOV lane on the outside of the eastbound lanes? I'm guessing it functioned like the peak-only bus shoulders that I-405 has now.

Looks like it. Has a diamond symbol and everything. I don't know the history of HOV lanes in this area, but it may have been built as a bus lane (judging by the only vehicle in the lane), before being switched to a regular HOV lane. Or perhaps, it stayed as a bus lane until the express lanes opened.

[OCGuy81]

On a recent trip up to Tacoma, I noticed the concurrency of I-5 and US-12 has interesting signage I haven't seen elsewhere.  The shields are together on a large white sign (didn't get pictures).  The interstate shield is on the white background, not cut out.

Is that standard for concurrencies in Washington State, or is that just a particular WSDOT district?

[jakeroot]

On a recent trip up to Tacoma, I noticed the concurrency of I-5 and US-12 has interesting signage I haven't seen elsewhere.  The shields are together on a large white sign (didn't get pictures).  The interstate shield is on the white background, not cut out.

Is that standard for concurrencies in Washington State, or is that just a particular WSDOT district?

It seems to have been a one-off design. I haven't seen any others like it around the state.

Here's a photo I took 3+ years ago:

[thefraze_1020]

Speaking of particular districts, does anyone know why WSDOT's Southwest division make their own unique exit signs, with separate exit tabs and the universal gore point signs?

[Lancaster6]

On a recent trip up to Tacoma, I noticed the concurrency of I-5 and US-12 has interesting signage I haven't seen elsewhere.  The shields are together on a large white sign (didn't get pictures).  The interstate shield is on the white background, not cut out.

Is that standard for concurrencies in Washington State, or is that just a particular WSDOT district?

I've only seen that weird signage in Lewis County. Concurrencies out by Tri-Cities are signed with individual signs.

GSV is a few years old but I know that those signs are still there.
Weird I-5/US-12 Signage

[jakeroot]

On a recent trip up to Tacoma, I noticed the concurrency of I-5 and US-12 has interesting signage I haven't seen elsewhere.  The shields are together on a large white sign (didn't get pictures).  The interstate shield is on the white background, not cut out.

Is that standard for concurrencies in Washington State, or is that just a particular WSDOT district?

I've only seen that weird signage in Lewis County. Concurrencies out by Tri-Cities are signed with individual signs.

GSV is a few years old but I know that those signs are still there.
Weird I-5/US-12 Signage

I don't think those signs are going anywhere. They're basically brand-new. They don't follow the typical MUTCD concurrency signage template, but they work fine.

[compdude787]

WSDOT's SW region does a few weird things with their signs. The most noticeable thing is how they sign exits at the gore point. Instead of saying "EXIT 44" on one sign, they have a sign that just says "EXIT" and then above that sign, they put another sign with the number "44." Really weird way to do it, and I haven't seen it anywhere else. Do they do this because they think it saves money or something?

[kkt]

WSDOT's SW region does a few weird things with their signs. The most noticeable thing is how they sign exits at the gore point. Instead of saying "EXIT 44" on one sign, they have a sign that just says "EXIT" and then above that sign, they put another sign with the number "44." Really weird way to do it, and I haven't seen it anywhere else. Do they do this because they think it saves money or something?

Were the exits not numbered before and the numbers added later?

[Lancaster6]

I don't think those signs are going anywhere. They're basically brand-new. They don't follow the typical MUTCD concurrency signage template, but they work fine.

They're definitely funky, but still get the point across just fine. WA state govt is big on the lean mentality, too, so two shields on one piece of metal is probably quicker and cheaper 

[thefraze_1020]

WSDOT's SW region does a few weird things with their signs. The most noticeable thing is how they sign exits at the gore point. Instead of saying "EXIT 44" on one sign, they have a sign that just says "EXIT" and then above that sign, they put another sign with the number "44." Really weird way to do it, and I haven't seen it anywhere else. Do they do this because they think it saves money or something?

Were the exits not numbered before and the numbers added later?

No, exits on Interstates have been numbered since the early 70's. These funky gore point signs have only been around within the last ten years.

[Revive 755]

WSDOT's SW region does a few weird things with their signs. The most noticeable thing is how they sign exits at the gore point. Instead of saying "EXIT 44" on one sign, they have a sign that just says "EXIT" and then above that sign, they put another sign with the number "44." Really weird way to do it, and I haven't seen it anywhere else. Do they do this because they think it saves money or something?

Assuming this gore sign on I-5 is an example of the gore sign setup you are referring to, it looks similar to the old gore sign design used in Iowa (example), Missouri (example), Texas (example), or West Virginia (example).

IIRC it was in the minutes of one of the National Committee on Uniform Traffic Control Devices meetings that gore signs with the number on a separate tab above the exit and arrow were preferred by some agencies as being faster to at least get the exit sign back in the field after being knocked down (apparently happening quite a bit), with the number tab being added later.

Now the exit gore signs of Nebraska on the other hand . . .

[jakeroot]

The Ridgefield Junction (14), which was redesigned only a couple of years ago, uses the exit gore number tabs. So it's definitely not an old standard.

There are quite a lot of signs in Clark County with full-width exit tabs. It seems like the SW region only went rogue in the past decade or two. Not sure what changed internally.

[roadfro]

WSDOT's SW region does a few weird things with their signs. The most noticeable thing is how they sign exits at the gore point. Instead of saying "EXIT 44" on one sign, they have a sign that just says "EXIT" and then above that sign, they put another sign with the number "44." Really weird way to do it, and I haven't seen it anywhere else. Do they do this because they think it saves money or something?

Assuming this gore sign on I-5 is an example of the gore sign setup you are referring to, it looks similar to the old gore sign design used in Iowa (example), Missouri (example), Texas (example), or West Virginia (example).

IIRC it was in the minutes of one of the National Committee on Uniform Traffic Control Devices meetings that gore signs with the number on a separate tab above the exit and arrow were preferred by some agencies as being faster to at least get the exit sign back in the field after being knocked down (apparently happening quite a bit), with the number tab being added later.

The MUTCD allows this exit gore sign method as an option. However, the text makes it clear that it's really intended for when a highway without exit numbering is converted to numbered exits, so the number plaque can be placed on top of an existing exit gore sign.

[duaneu2]

Is that an HOV lane on the outside of the eastbound lanes? I'm guessing it functioned like the peak-only bus shoulders that I-405 has now.

Those are the westbound lanes, but yes, there was an HOV lane on the bridge and through the tunnel when it first opened in 1989. It was just a regular 2+ HOV lane. I believe it remained until the replacement eastbound bridge was completed and the express lanes opened a few years later.

[jakeroot]

Is that an HOV lane on the outside of the eastbound lanes? I'm guessing it functioned like the peak-only bus shoulders that I-405 has now.

Those are the westbound lanes, but yes, there was an HOV lane on the bridge and through the tunnel when it first opened in 1989. It was just a regular 2+ HOV lane. I believe it remained until the replacement eastbound bridge was completed and the express lanes opened a few years later.

Thanks for the info, Duane. Have you lived in the area for a while? If so, I feel like I could pick your brain apart for a few hours.

[duaneu2]

Is that an HOV lane on the outside of the eastbound lanes? I'm guessing it functioned like the peak-only bus shoulders that I-405 has now.

Those are the westbound lanes, but yes, there was an HOV lane on the bridge and through the tunnel when it first opened in 1989. It was just a regular 2+ HOV lane. I believe it remained until the replacement eastbound bridge was completed and the express lanes opened a few years later.

Thanks for the info, Duane. Have you lived in the area for a while? If so, I feel like I could pick your brain apart for a few hours.

Yep, lived in Tacoma or Bellevue or someplace in between my whole life (almost 50 years). Pick away all you'd like. :-)

[jakeroot]

Yep, lived in Tacoma or Bellevue or someplace in between my whole life (almost 50 years). Pick away all you'd like. :-)

Alright, I like it!

Did you ever get to drive in downtown Tacoma pre-I-705? I have family in the area, but no one remembers what it was like before the freeway. I'm more curious to know if it was hellish trying to get into the city proper from I-5.

[duaneu2]

Yep, lived in Tacoma or Bellevue or someplace in between my whole life (almost 50 years). Pick away all you'd like. :-)

Alright, I like it!

Did you ever get to drive in downtown Tacoma pre-I-705? I have family in the area, but no one remembers what it was like before the freeway. I'm more curious to know if it was hellish trying to get into the city proper from I-5.

No, I don't recall it being particular difficult. Pacific Avenue was the main route into downtown from the freeway.

[Thunderbyrd316]

Yep, lived in Tacoma or Bellevue or someplace in between my whole life (almost 50 years). Pick away all you'd like. :-)

Alright, I like it!

Did you ever get to drive in downtown Tacoma pre-I-705? I have family in the area, but no one remembers what it was like before the freeway. I'm more curious to know if it was hellish trying to get into the city proper from I-5.

   Back in the mid '80's ('83 to '87 in particular) me and my dad were going to Spanaway Speedway pretty frequently and on MANY of those trips, especially the Sunday afternoon races, we would come up (from the PDX metro area, we lived in Oak Grove at the time) early in the morning and we drove all over the Seattle - Tacoma area. And we frequently drove into downtown Tacoma and would then follow Pacific Ave. all the way back out to Spanaway.

   Downtown Tacoma was a TOTAL third world Hell hole back then. It has recovered about 1,000,000% from how it was in those dark days. The SR 7 freeway was open between I-5 and So. 38th but north of I-5 there was nothing at all. The '60's era structures just dead ended into nothingness. Pacific Ave. from the south and Pacific Highway from Fife to Pacific Ave. were the main ways into downtown. As I recall SR 509 came in on the 11th St. Bridge. And no, it was not "Hellish" to try to get into downtown for the simple reason that almost nobody really had a reason to go there. It really was like a bombed out ghost town. That is probably why nobody in your family remembers it. Though there was a Salvation Army thrift store that used to have a LOTS of cool old maps that was on the side of the hill a few blocks west of Pacific in a particularly depressing neighborhood. (Among the gems I found in that particular store were a '50's era map of Europe that showed "Super Highways" and an Official 1959 Oregon State Centennial map that showed what is now I-5 through Salem as a "Super 2" called US 99 Bypass, the US 99 Baldock Freeway between Salem and Tigard and the US 30 Banfield Expressway between downtown and Fairview. Oh, how I wish I still had those!)

   I remember when they started building I-705. It was super exciting. Once in the late '80's when it was really beginning to take shape but not open yet, I even got to see it from the train tracks. (Me and my dad had ridden Amtrak up to Tacoma to pick up a car.) I also remember when they started converting SR 16 between the Nally Valley Viaduct and the Narrows Bridge to freeway. They did it in sections. And at first built just half of the freeway and crowded 4 lanes onto it. I remember that for what seemed like a long time after construction had begun there was still a signal near the stadium by the curve. The way I remember it, Highway 16 ran between the bridge and 6th Ave. by way of what Google Maps now calls Scott Pierson Trail. My memory is pretty foggy about the specific routing beyond 6th Ave. but I want to say that Pearl Street may have been used at least part way. (I would have to look at a map from back then though to know for sure.)

   One other thing I remember was how SR 167 was 2 lanes between SR 410 and SR 18. There were extra large Botts Dotts down the center with a solid yellow line on each side and passing was strictly prohibited.

   I could tell you a lot more stories about driving around the Puget Sound area in the '80's if you ever want to hear them. (But I got a LOT going on between now and the 4th so I probably will not be back online until the 5th, at least for any length of time.)

[duaneu2]

Yep, lived in Tacoma or Bellevue or someplace in between my whole life (almost 50 years). Pick away all you'd like. :-)

Alright, I like it!

Did you ever get to drive in downtown Tacoma pre-I-705? I have family in the area, but no one remembers what it was like before the freeway. I'm more curious to know if it was hellish trying to get into the city proper from I-5.

   I remember when they started building I-705. It was super exciting. Once in the late '80's when it was really beginning to take shape but not open yet, I even got to see it from the train tracks. (Me and my dad had ridden Amtrak up to Tacoma to pick up a car.) I also remember when they started converting SR 16 between the Nally Valley Viaduct and the Narrows Bridge to freeway. They did it in sections. And at first built just half of the freeway and crowded 4 lanes onto it. I remember that for what seemed like a long time after construction had begun there was still a signal near the stadium by the curve. The way I remember it, Highway 16 ran between the bridge and 6th Ave. by way of what Google Maps now calls Scott Pierson Trail. My memory is pretty foggy about the specific routing beyond 6th Ave. but I want to say that Pearl Street may have been used at least part way. (I would have to look at a map from back then though to know for sure.)

Speaking of Amtrak, I-705 spelled the end of Union Station as train depot, as it cut off the station from the railroad tracks. You'll notice how the freeway dips down as it passes the station. Originally the roadway was supposed to be elevated all the way, but it was redesigned so as not to block the views to/from the station.

As far as SR-16 goes, the diagonal part between Cheney Stadium and 6th Avenue was called Bantz Blvd. There were stoplights at Center Street, South 19th Street and South 12th Street. From Bantz, 6th Avenue was SR-16 until it turned toward the bridge on what was then called Olympic Blvd. During the mid to late 80's, Bantz was upgraded to a freeway and the new freeway alignment north of 6th on Highland Hill was built. The last stoplight was removed with the opening of the 19th/Orchard interchange in 1991.

[sp_redelectric]

On a recent trip up to Tacoma, I noticed the concurrency of I-5 and US-12 has interesting signage I haven't seen elsewhere.  The shields are together on a large white sign (didn't get pictures).  The interstate shield is on the white background, not cut out.

Those signs replaced even more interesting signs, that had both the Interstate 5 and U.S. 12 shields against a BLUE (!!!) background.