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3 work zone crashes in one week in Mass.

Started by mass_citizen, July 02, 2016, 03:56:01 AM

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mass_citizen

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/local_coverage/2016/07/cops_alarmed_by_increase_in_roadwork_site_crashes

some are trying to blame the fatal crash on the lack of a police detail but as is evident in the 3rd crash of the week, the drunks still crash into blue lights...


jeffandnicole

A lot of hyperbole in the article. Nearly 900 crashes...was really 860 (why not say nearly 1,000 accidents if they're going to round up?). They state there isn't a single source of causes for the accidents, but they certainly refer to texting and makeup as possible causes without any proof. Yet, the cause of the deadly accident: the DUI, barely gets referenced.

froggie

On that note, did they ever figure out the backstory behind the guy who plowed into the construction embankment at 93 and the Methuen Rotary last week?

SidS1045

A rag like The Boston Herald doesn't need facts to get in the way of a good emotionally-charged story.

Predictable response:  A petition to the legislature to automatically drop the speed limit in the area of road construction.  Doubling the speeding fines in a construction zone (as is the law now) will no longer be considered enough of a deterrent.
"A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves." - Edward R. Murrow

SectorZ

All drunk, the common thread. I bet all of them had at least one DUI prior and never went to jail for it.

mass_citizen

Quote from: SidS1045 on July 02, 2016, 03:31:01 PM


Predictable response:  A petition to the legislature to automatically drop the speed limit in the area of road construction. 

This law already exists as work zone speed limits on highways are 45 mph. The problem is its never enforced and people go 85 mph through a night time work zone. If I recall, the state police claim their details on site cannot perform enforcement since it would require them to leave their post.

RobbieL2415

In MA, do work zone speed limits apply even when the work zone isn't active?

mass_citizen

afaik, if the workzone is permanent (and not temporary i.e. night work) then yes the speed limit applies whether work is actually going on or not

jeffandnicole

Quote from: mass_citizen on July 03, 2016, 03:33:36 PM
Quote from: SidS1045 on July 02, 2016, 03:31:01 PM


Predictable response:  A petition to the legislature to automatically drop the speed limit in the area of road construction. 

This law already exists as work zone speed limits on highways are 45 mph. The problem is its never enforced and people go 85 mph through a night time work zone. If I recall, the state police claim their details on site cannot perform enforcement since it would require them to leave their post.

Just to clarify...is it a "law" that speed limits are automatically 45 mph in a construction zone, or is that what they are typically signed?

roadman

#9
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 04, 2016, 06:49:17 AM
Quote from: mass_citizen on July 03, 2016, 03:33:36 PM
Quote from: SidS1045 on July 02, 2016, 03:31:01 PM


Predictable response:  A petition to the legislature to automatically drop the speed limit in the area of road construction. 

This law already exists as work zone speed limits on highways are 45 mph. The problem is its never enforced and people go 85 mph through a night time work zone. If I recall, the state police claim their details on site cannot perform enforcement since it would require them to leave their post.

Just to clarify...is it a "law" that speed limits are automatically 45 mph in a construction zone, or is that what they are typically signed?
With rare exceptions, work zone speed limits in Massachusetts are advisory speeds, not regulatory - although I've heard stories that Troop E (MassPike State Police patrol) apparently doesn't understand the difference between the two.  The recent change to post all Interstate and freeway work zones with 45 mph advisory speeds was a MassDOT decision, and not based on or required by any new state law.

And the problem with repeat drunk drivers remaining on the road is not so much an issue of lax police enforcement as it is of clever defense attorneys getting charges reduced or thrown out and judges too afraid to actually hand down appropriate punishments.  As many of those same defense attorneys are members of the Legislature, it's highly unlikely you'll see any meaningful changes to the laws.  This is hardly a new problem, it's been an issue in Massachusetts for as long as I can remember.
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

RobbieL2415

Quote from: roadman on July 04, 2016, 09:57:31 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 04, 2016, 06:49:17 AM
Quote from: mass_citizen on July 03, 2016, 03:33:36 PM
Quote from: SidS1045 on July 02, 2016, 03:31:01 PM


Predictable response:  A petition to the legislature to automatically drop the speed limit in the area of road construction. 

This law already exists as work zone speed limits on highways are 45 mph. The problem is its never enforced and people go 85 mph through a night time work zone. If I recall, the state police claim their details on site cannot perform enforcement since it would require them to leave their post.

Just to clarify...is it a "law" that speed limits are automatically 45 mph in a construction zone, or is that what they are typically signed?
With rare exceptions, work zone speed limits in Massachusetts are advisory speeds, not regulatory - although I've heard stories that Troop E (MassPike State Police patrol) apparently doesn't understand the difference between the two.  The recent change to post all Interstate and freeway work zones with 45 mph advisory speeds was a MassDOT decision, and not based on or required by any new state law.

And the problem with repeat drunk drivers remaining on the road is not so much an issue of lax police enforcement as it is of clever defense attorneys getting charges reduced or thrown out and judges too afraid to actually hand down appropriate punishments.  As many of those same defense attorneys are members of the Legislature, it's highly unlikely you'll see any meaningful changes to the laws.  This is hardly a new problem, it's been an issue in Massachusetts for as long as I can remember.
This brings up another question:  I know that advisory speed limits are not enforceable (except under the basic speed law), but on roads that are signed as "Thickly settled" and have no posted speed limit, is the thickly settled speed limit enforceable as a posted speed limit?

AMLNet49

Quote from: RobbieL2415 on July 04, 2016, 10:11:39 AM
Quote from: roadman on July 04, 2016, 09:57:31 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 04, 2016, 06:49:17 AM
Quote from: mass_citizen on July 03, 2016, 03:33:36 PM
Quote from: SidS1045 on July 02, 2016, 03:31:01 PM


Predictable response:  A petition to the legislature to automatically drop the speed limit in the area of road construction. 

This law already exists as work zone speed limits on highways are 45 mph. The problem is its never enforced and people go 85 mph through a night time work zone. If I recall, the state police claim their details on site cannot perform enforcement since it would require them to leave their post.

Just to clarify...is it a "law" that speed limits are automatically 45 mph in a construction zone, or is that what they are typically signed?
With rare exceptions, work zone speed limits in Massachusetts are advisory speeds, not regulatory - although I've heard stories that Troop E (MassPike State Police patrol) apparently doesn't understand the difference between the two.  The recent change to post all Interstate and freeway work zones with 45 mph advisory speeds was a MassDOT decision, and not based on or required by any new state law.

And the problem with repeat drunk drivers remaining on the road is not so much an issue of lax police enforcement as it is of clever defense attorneys getting charges reduced or thrown out and judges too afraid to actually hand down appropriate punishments.  As many of those same defense attorneys are members of the Legislature, it's highly unlikely you'll see any meaningful changes to the laws.  This is hardly a new problem, it's been an issue in Massachusetts for as long as I can remember.
This brings up another question:  I know that advisory speed limits are not enforceable (except under the basic speed law), but on roads that are signed as "Thickly settled" and have no posted speed limit, is the thickly settled speed limit enforceable as a posted speed limit?

A thickly settled advisory speed is 30 MPH, but the default limit for a residential area with no posted speed limit in Mass is also 30 MPH. So technically no, but effectively yes.

roadman

Quote from: AMLNet49 on July 04, 2016, 10:55:20 AM

A thickly settled advisory speed is 30 MPH, but the default limit for a residential area with no posted speed limit in Mass is also 30 MPH. So technically no, but effectively yes.

Actually, Massachusetts prima facie speed law (MGL Chapter 90, Section 17), specifically references "thickly settled" districts, which have a 30 MPH prima facie speed limit.  And, although some cities and towns post advisory speed plates that match the prima facie speed limit, police cannot legally use the signs as a basis for writing tickets.  Those officers who do that anyway usually have the citations thrown out if the driver appeals to the magistrate.

BTW, in Massachusetts cites and towns cannot legally post regulatory speed limit signs that match the prima facie speed limit, unless a special speed regulation has been issued for that section of street per MGL, Chapter 90, Section 18.
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

hotdogPi

Quote from: roadman on July 04, 2016, 12:45:55 PM
BTW, in Massachusetts cites and towns cannot legally post regulatory speed limit signs that match the prima facie speed limit, unless a special speed regulation has been issued for that section of street per MGL, Chapter 90, Section 18.

I believe the default is 40 for undivided roads that aren't thickly settled. Does this mean that most "Speed limit 40" signs are placed there illegally?
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

kalvado

Quote from: roadman on July 04, 2016, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: AMLNet49 on July 04, 2016, 10:55:20 AM

A thickly settled advisory speed is 30 MPH, but the default limit for a residential area with no posted speed limit in Mass is also 30 MPH. So technically no, but effectively yes.

Actually, Massachusetts prima facie speed law (MGL Chapter 90, Section 17), specifically references "thickly settled" districts, which have a 30 MPH prima facie speed limit.  And, although some cities and towns post advisory speed plates that match the prima facie speed limit, police cannot legally use the signs as a basis for writing tickets.  Those officers who do that anyway usually have the citations thrown out if the driver appeals to the magistrate.

BTW, in Massachusetts cites and towns cannot legally post regulatory speed limit signs that match the prima facie speed limit, unless a special speed regulation has been issued for that section of street per MGL, Chapter 90, Section 18.

So how prima facie limits are enforced? Do they have to write a different law section in the ticket to make it valid, or what?

roadman

Quote from: kalvado on July 04, 2016, 05:34:43 PM
Quote from: roadman on July 04, 2016, 12:45:55 PM

Actually, Massachusetts prima facie speed law (MGL Chapter 90, Section 17), specifically references "thickly settled" districts, which have a 30 MPH prima facie speed limit.  And, although some cities and towns post advisory speed plates that match the prima facie speed limit, police cannot legally use the signs as a basis for writing tickets.  Those officers who do that anyway usually have the citations thrown out if the driver appeals to the magistrate.

BTW, in Massachusetts cites and towns cannot legally post regulatory speed limit signs that match the prima facie speed limit, unless a special speed regulation has been issued for that section of street per MGL, Chapter 90, Section 18.

So how prima facie limits are enforced? Do they have to write a different law section in the ticket to make it valid, or what?

That is correct.  For violations of prima facie speed limits, the officer has to reference MGL Ch 90, Section 17 on the ticket.  For violations of posted regulatory speed limits, the officer has to reference MGL Ch 90, Section 18 on the ticket.
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

cpzilliacus

[Emphasis added below]

Quote from: roadman on July 04, 2016, 09:57:31 AM
And the problem with repeat drunk drivers remaining on the road is not so much an issue of lax police enforcement as it is of clever defense attorneys getting charges reduced or thrown out and judges too afraid to actually hand down appropriate punishments.  As many of those same defense attorneys are members of the Legislature, it's highly unlikely you'll see any meaningful changes to the laws.  This is hardly a new problem, it's been an issue in Massachusetts for as long as I can remember.

This is a major problem in my state of Maryland.  One of the biggest drunk driving attorneys in the state, Delegate Joe Vallario (D-District 23B, Prince George's County) represents drunk drivers in our state courts (nothing wrong with  that, they are entitled to an effective defense in court against criminal charges brought by the State), but looking out for the interests of his drunk clients (and drunk driving attorneys statewide) in Annapolis as Chair of the Judiciary Committee is wrong.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

AMLNet49

Quote from: roadman on July 04, 2016, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: AMLNet49 on July 04, 2016, 10:55:20 AM

A thickly settled advisory speed is 30 MPH, but the default limit for a residential area with no posted speed limit in Mass is also 30 MPH. So technically no, but effectively yes.

Actually, Massachusetts prima facie speed law (MGL Chapter 90, Section 17), specifically references "thickly settled" districts, which have a 30 MPH prima facie speed limit.  And, although some cities and towns post advisory speed plates that match the prima facie speed limit, police cannot legally use the signs as a basis for writing tickets.  Those officers who do that anyway usually have the citations thrown out if the driver appeals to the magistrate.

BTW, in Massachusetts cites and towns cannot legally post regulatory speed limit signs that match the prima facie speed limit, unless a special speed regulation has been issued for that section of street per MGL, Chapter 90, Section 18.
Oh thank you for the insight as always, that's interesting I was not aware of that.

mass_citizen


roadman

#19
Quote from: 1 on July 04, 2016, 12:52:23 PM
Quote from: roadman on July 04, 2016, 12:45:55 PM
BTW, in Massachusetts cites and towns cannot legally post regulatory speed limit signs that match the prima facie speed limit, unless a special speed regulation has been issued for that section of street per MGL, Chapter 90, Section 18.

I believe the default is 40 for undivided roads that aren't thickly settled. Does this mean that most "Speed limit 40" signs are placed there illegally?

Not necessarily.  Although cities and towns cannot legally post regulatory speed limit signs for prima facie speeds without a special speed regulation (SSR), AFAIK there's nothing in state law or MassDOT speed zoning procedures that specifically prevents the issuance of a SSR that matches the prima facie speed limit for a given roadway.

In the past, a number of cities and towns have intentionally done this, as it makes enforcement easier.  Enforcement of a prima facie speed limit, per MGL Ch. 90, Sec. 17, requires the officer to pace the vehicle for a given distance before pulling them over (the exact distance varies based on the speed limit for the area).  Enforcement of a speed limit posted in accordance with a SSR, per MGL Ch. 90, Sec. 18, only requires the officer to verify that the vehicle is exceeding the limit posted on the sign before pulling them over.  One of the most common "got out of a ticket" scenarios I've heard over the years is when an officer cites MGL Ch. 90, Sec. 18, instead of Sec. 17, when writing up somebody for exceeding a prima facie limit.

Of course, there are cities and towns who still try to post regulatory signs that are not legally supported by a SSR - this was a huge problem in Lynn when I was living there in the 1970s and 1980s.  You could usually tell these illegal speed zones by the signs, as they didn't quite meet MUTCD standards for font or color tint.

Personally, I have never had any issues with the concept of allowing local municipalities to post regulatory speed limit signs that mirror the prima facie speed limit for a given section of street or road.  To distinguish these speed limits from those limits established by special speed regulation, all you would need is a simple "Prima Facie" banner attached to the bottom of the sign.  Allowing this would encourage speed enforcement (which is badly needed in many areas), and would also likely eliminate the annual circus where at least a half dozen cities and towns petition the Legislature for a special state law or Act that would enable them to bypass the special speed regulation process by permitting them to either a) establish their own speed limits on roads under their jurisdiction without state approval or b) set up special "traffic safety" areas (like the one enacted a few years back in part of Melrose) with reduced speed limits on specific streets and roads in their community,
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

RobbieL2415

Quote from: roadman on July 11, 2016, 06:39:21 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 04, 2016, 12:52:23 PM
Quote from: roadman on July 04, 2016, 12:45:55 PM
BTW, in Massachusetts cites and towns cannot legally post regulatory speed limit signs that match the prima facie speed limit, unless a special speed regulation has been issued for that section of street per MGL, Chapter 90, Section 18.

I believe the default is 40 for undivided roads that aren't thickly settled. Does this mean that most "Speed limit 40" signs are placed there illegally?

Not necessarily.  Although cities and towns cannot legally post regulatory speed limit signs for prima facie speeds without a special speed regulation (SSR), AFAIK there's nothing in state law or MassDOT speed zoning procedures that specifically prevents the issuance of a SSR that matches the prima facie speed limit for a given roadway.

In the past, a number of cities and towns have intentionally done this, as it makes enforcement easier.  Enforcement of a prima facie speed limit, per MGL Ch. 90, Sec. 17, requires the officer to pace the vehicle for a given distance before pulling them over (the exact distance varies based on the speed limit for the area).  Enforcement of a speed limit posted in accordance with a SSR, per MGL Ch. 90, Sec. 18, only requires the officer to verify that the vehicle is exceeding the limit posted on the sign before pulling them over.  One of the most common "got out of a ticket" scenarios I've heard over the years is when an officer cites MGL Ch. 90, Sec. 18, instead of Sec. 17, when writing up somebody for exceeding a prima facie limit.

Of course, there are cities and towns who still try to post regulatory signs that are not legally supported by a SSR - this was a huge problem in Lynn when I was living there in the 1970s and 1980s.  You could usually tell these illegal speed zones by the signs, as they didn't quite meet MUTCD standards for font or color tint.

Personally, I have never had any issues with the concept of allowing local municipalities to post regulatory speed limit signs that mirror the prima facie speed limit for a given section of street or road.  To distinguish these speed limits from those limits established by special speed regulation, all you would need is a simple "Prima Facie" banner attached to the bottom of the sign.  Allowing this would encourage speed enforcement (which is badly needed in many areas), and would also likely eliminate the annual circus where at least a half dozen cities and towns petition the Legislature for a special state law or Act that would enable them to bypass the special speed regulation process by permitting them to either a) establish their own speed limits on roads under their jurisdiction without state approval or b) set up special "traffic safety" areas (like the one enacted a few years back in part of Melrose) with reduced speed limits on specific streets and roads in their community,

Is MassDOT the only government entity with the only authority to determine speed limits for municipally-owned streets?

roadman

Quote from: RobbieL2415 on July 11, 2016, 08:16:42 PM
Is MassDOT the only government entity with the only authority to determine speed limits for municipally-owned streets?

With the exception of those instances (such as the Melrose example I mentioned above) where a city or town has obtained a special Legislative Act to establish speed limits on specific streets or roads, that is correct.  Special speed regulations require approval of the MassDOT Traffic Engineer and the Registrar of Motor Vehicles before they can become effective and signs legally posted.
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)



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