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What will happen first, AZ 85 freeway or I-11 "Phoenix Bypass" segment?

Started by swbrotha100, August 22, 2016, 02:36:34 PM

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swbrotha100

Both seem to be years, if not decades, away. One possibility is that a segment of I-11 gets built over current SR 85 between I-8 and I-10. Any thoughts?


brad2971

Quote from: swbrotha100 on August 22, 2016, 02:36:34 PM
Both seem to be years, if not decades, away. One possibility is that a segment of I-11 gets built over current SR 85 between I-8 and I-10. Any thoughts?

The SR 85 will be full freeway before I-11, easily. The current plans for I-11 in the Phoenix area depend on banks willing to finance the development of Douglas Ranch. As metro Phoenix slowly but surely embraces infill development, the economic case for Douglas Ranch, and the section of I-11 that goes thru it, gets thrown in the trash.

In fact, SR 85 can be I-11, as well as the north-south portion of the Sun Valley Pkwy, for much less the cost. Even with the traffic light in Gila Bend, it's already a serviceable bypass of Phoenix, in conjunction with I-8.

kdk

Definitely SR 85.  Some parts are already close to or up to freeway standards- such as the interchange near the prison.  Other parts are actually on the frontage roads for now, similar to the Loop 101 was in Chandler back in the late 90's.  I forsee it actually being more/less used as part of I-11 for a period of time unofficially.  I really believe that I-11 will make its way down to I-10 in the forseeable future, but the segment south of I-10 will take a lot longer, therefore traffic off I-11 will dump onto I-10 and will then head south on the 85.

One thing I haven't heard or found anything about- once the 85 is a freeway will it always dump traffic through Gila Bend, or is there a bypass plan of the town.  With that new alignment done where 85 and Maricopa Road intersect it seems that the long term plan is to send traffic through town, I know a bypass will kill most of what's left there other than maybe what's closer to the 8.

The Ghostbuster

Although I've never been to Arizona, the AZ 85 freeway sounds more realistic than the I-11 bypass.

swbrotha100

Quote from: kdk on August 22, 2016, 03:50:37 PM
Definitely SR 85.  Some parts are already close to or up to freeway standards- such as the interchange near the prison.  Other parts are actually on the frontage roads for now, similar to the Loop 101 was in Chandler back in the late 90's.  I forsee it actually being more/less used as part of I-11 for a period of time unofficially.  I really believe that I-11 will make its way down to I-10 in the forseeable future, but the segment south of I-10 will take a lot longer, therefore traffic off I-11 will dump onto I-10 and will then head south on the 85.

One thing I haven't heard or found anything about- once the 85 is a freeway will it always dump traffic through Gila Bend, or is there a bypass plan of the town.  With that new alignment done where 85 and Maricopa Road intersect it seems that the long term plan is to send traffic through town, I know a bypass will kill most of what's left there other than maybe what's closer to the 8.

I have seen renderings of a freeway connection online before of a connection from I-8 to the 4 lane divided highway section of 85 to the north. I can't find it now, but it was part of the long range plan on improvements ADOT had for 85.

Max Rockatansky

85 way more quickly.  The route has been substantially built up the last two decades and doesn't need a whole lot to make a substantial freeway.

coatimundi

Quote from: swbrotha100 on August 22, 2016, 07:09:25 PM
I have seen renderings of a freeway connection online before of a connection from I-8 to the 4 lane divided highway section of 85 to the north. I can't find it now, but it was part of the long range plan on improvements ADOT had for 85.

Could this have been an alternative considered when the 85/Business 8 intersection in Gila Bend was rebuilt? It seems like someone with some foresight would have at least put that on paper.

swbrotha100

Quote from: coatimundi on August 23, 2016, 01:04:52 AM
Quote from: swbrotha100 on August 22, 2016, 07:09:25 PM
I have seen renderings of a freeway connection online before of a connection from I-8 to the 4 lane divided highway section of 85 to the north. I can't find it now, but it was part of the long range plan on improvements ADOT had for 85.

Could this have been an alternative considered when the 85/Business 8 intersection in Gila Bend was rebuilt? It seems like someone with some foresight would have at least put that on paper.

This link has it:

https://azdot.gov/docs/default-source/environmental-planning-library/sr85_gila_bend_final_ea.pdf?sfvrsn=2

Rendering of a potential freeway interchange between I-8 and SR 85 is on page 18 of the file.

sparker

From the comments of the Gila Bend-based respondents, it seems that they prefer the present "Breezewood-esque" situation re San Diego/Yuma-Phoenix traffic, which is certainly understandable from a local point of view; a slog through the town (which I've done on several occasions) does have the potential to elicit travel-related business (as long as they're going slow through town, they may decide to stop and eat/get refreshments/etc.).  But if I-11 is extended at least as far south as I-10 near the AZ 85 junction at Buckeye -- and if plans for the Casa Grande extension of I-11 don't materialize in short order -- then almost certainly AZ 85 will bear the brunt of through traffic wishing to avoid Phoenix and environs (for good reason!).  Since the direct route to I-8 east (Biz I-8) diverges from AZ 85 prior to the town center, additional business from south-to-east traffic wouldn't likely materialize -- and the likely traffic situations at the AZ 85/Biz 8 intersection stemming from increased flow to and from southeast Business 8 would likely prompt re-thinking of the direct freeway connection as depicted in the documents. 

But all this is speculation, dependent upon the eventual scheduling of I-11 development.  But I'd place odds that the Phoenix-Vegas corridor will see construction long before the Casa Grande extension route is even finalized, with AZ 85 as a virtual extension. 

The Ghostbuster

Maybe Interstate 11 could meet Interstate 10 at the AZ 85 junction. Or is that too far west to be practical?

Sonic99

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 23, 2016, 06:34:29 PM
Maybe Interstate 11 could meet Interstate 10 at the AZ 85 junction. Or is that too far west to be practical?

I wouldn't be surprised if AZ 85 became I-11 to around Gila Bend, but there is a large mountain just north of the AZ 85/I-10 T-interchange that would prohibit I-11 from properly intersecting there. It would most likely come down around Sun Valley Parkway and have a short duplex with I-10 for the few miles between the two.
If you used to draw freeways on your homework and got reprimanded by your Senior English teacher for doing so, you might be a road geek!

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Sonic99 on August 23, 2016, 08:41:10 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 23, 2016, 06:34:29 PM
Maybe Interstate 11 could meet Interstate 10 at the AZ 85 junction. Or is that too far west to be practical?

I wouldn't be surprised if AZ 85 became I-11 to around Gila Bend, but there is a large mountain just north of the AZ 85/I-10 T-interchange that would prohibit I-11 from properly intersecting there. It would most likely come down around Sun Valley Parkway and have a short duplex with I-10 for the few miles between the two.

So many people really want that Interstate west of the White Tanks, what a waste...at least in my opinion.  I don't think anyone would seriously be even looking at it if Buckeye had annexed so much land.  Really if the purpose is to serve Phoenix and Vegas I-11 ought to follow Grand/US 60 to the 303 and cut south to I-10.  Either routing I-11 down AZ 85 or the Estrella bypass to Maricopa/Casa Grande would still be viable.

Sonic99

I do just want to say though that I have found it interesting that ADOT has built AZ-85 as frontage roads with the space in the middle for a freeway from what would be Elliot Rd up to the I-10 interchange, and actually has southward extending stubs of concrete roadbed just north of Broadway Rd as a future freeway.
If you used to draw freeways on your homework and got reprimanded by your Senior English teacher for doing so, you might be a road geek!

Sonic99

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 23, 2016, 08:48:14 PM
Quote from: Sonic99 on August 23, 2016, 08:41:10 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 23, 2016, 06:34:29 PM
Maybe Interstate 11 could meet Interstate 10 at the AZ 85 junction. Or is that too far west to be practical?

I wouldn't be surprised if AZ 85 became I-11 to around Gila Bend, but there is a large mountain just north of the AZ 85/I-10 T-interchange that would prohibit I-11 from properly intersecting there. It would most likely come down around Sun Valley Parkway and have a short duplex with I-10 for the few miles between the two.

So many people really want that Interstate west of the White Tanks, what a waste...at least in my opinion.  I don't think anyone would seriously be even looking at it if Buckeye had annexed so much land.  Really if the purpose is to serve Phoenix and Vegas I-11 ought to follow Grand/US 60 to the 303 and cut south to I-10.  Either routing I-11 down AZ 85 or the Estrella bypass to Maricopa/Casa Grande would still be viable.

West of the White Tanks is the next westward surge in growth if the economy recovers enough to make it viable again. The recession in 2008 killed all that, but there was that one big subdivision out there that got partially built before the collapse and that was Tartesso. Dirt was carved out further north for another one, but it never made it beyond the grader. If I-11 got put in along Sun Valley Parkway, that would open that whole area back up again for development and jump start everything that died in 2008.
If you used to draw freeways on your homework and got reprimanded by your Senior English teacher for doing so, you might be a road geek!

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Sonic99 on August 23, 2016, 08:53:59 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 23, 2016, 08:48:14 PM
Quote from: Sonic99 on August 23, 2016, 08:41:10 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 23, 2016, 06:34:29 PM
Maybe Interstate 11 could meet Interstate 10 at the AZ 85 junction. Or is that too far west to be practical?

I wouldn't be surprised if AZ 85 became I-11 to around Gila Bend, but there is a large mountain just north of the AZ 85/I-10 T-interchange that would prohibit I-11 from properly intersecting there. It would most likely come down around Sun Valley Parkway and have a short duplex with I-10 for the few miles between the two.

So many people really want that Interstate west of the White Tanks, what a waste...at least in my opinion.  I don't think anyone would seriously be even looking at it if Buckeye had annexed so much land.  Really if the purpose is to serve Phoenix and Vegas I-11 ought to follow Grand/US 60 to the 303 and cut south to I-10.  Either routing I-11 down AZ 85 or the Estrella bypass to Maricopa/Casa Grande would still be viable.

West of the White Tanks is the next westward surge in growth if the economy recovers enough to make it viable again. The recession in 2008 killed all that, but there was that one big subdivision out there that got partially built before the collapse and that was Tartesso. Dirt was carved out further north for another one, but it never made it beyond the grader. If I-11 got put in along Sun Valley Parkway, that would open that whole area back up again for development and jump start everything that died in 2008.

Okay, how is that a reasonable commute for anyone to have AN ENTIRE mountain range obstructing them from the rest of the city.  It's not like we're talking about a bypass like the I-11 Estrella path or the 202 Bypass of South Mountain.  This would literally serve nobody with this whole flight of fancy that it's going to spur growth in an area that has none.  That's the problem with people in Phoenix these days, they seem to think that the massive urban sprawl will have no end.  Real estate development at the pace that Phoenix was seeing post recession was unhealthy and ultimately played a huge part in what caused it in the first place.  Peoria and Goodyear did the same thing Buckeye did annexing up parcels of land only to have them completely undeveloped.  At least with Peoria annexing land up to AZ 74 it will be in the actual Valley and with Goodyear it will still have short access to I-10.  I might be far less skeptical of the "West of the White Tanks plan" if it was say something along the lines of AZ Loop 404 or something.  Develop the Interstate route for what it's meant for....the west of Tucson jabber is equally inane.

sparker

Quote from: Sonic99 on August 23, 2016, 08:50:32 PM
I do just want to say though that I have found it interesting that ADOT has built AZ-85 as frontage roads with the space in the middle for a freeway from what would be Elliot Rd up to the I-10 interchange, and actually has southward extending stubs of concrete roadbed just north of Broadway Rd as a future freeway.
Essentially copying the Texas model, used on both the I-69C route along US 281 and the potential I-2 west extension along US 83.  Build the frontage roads first, let the local property owners establish their connections to such (ameliorating local objections), and then complete the freeway as funding allows.  On the minus side, it enables TXDOT to install "volleyball" interchanges between freeways (TXDOT is to volleyballs what Caltrans is to parclos!).

coatimundi

Quote from: sparker on August 24, 2016, 01:33:36 AM
Quote from: Sonic99 on August 23, 2016, 08:50:32 PM
I do just want to say though that I have found it interesting that ADOT has built AZ-85 as frontage roads with the space in the middle for a freeway from what would be Elliot Rd up to the I-10 interchange, and actually has southward extending stubs of concrete roadbed just north of Broadway Rd as a future freeway.
Essentially copying the Texas model, used on both the I-69C route along US 281 and the potential I-2 west extension along US 83.  Build the frontage roads first, let the local property owners establish their connections to such (ameliorating local objections), and then complete the freeway as funding allows.  On the minus side, it enables TXDOT to install "volleyball" interchanges between freeways (TXDOT is to volleyballs what Caltrans is to parclos!).

Texas uses that model for everything. The northeast portion of Beltway 8 was frontage roads only for at least 30 years. Red Bluff Road in Pasadena has such a wide median because it was supposed to be a freeway. Arizona is so sparse with frontage roads though that it seems strange that they would build it like this. Without any connections, there's no real reason why it couldn't just mostly use the existing roadway and go into that large median for overpasses. Who knows though.

Gila Bend is pretty much only travel-related businesses; that's the town. But, in the end, I think that most of the customers are coming off I-8. It's a pretty good distance to the next gas option in either direction. I almost ran out of gas once trying to make it to slightly cheaper gas in Stanfield, and I don't believe that's even signed.

Sonic99

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 23, 2016, 09:45:03 PM
Quote from: Sonic99 on August 23, 2016, 08:53:59 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 23, 2016, 08:48:14 PM
Quote from: Sonic99 on August 23, 2016, 08:41:10 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 23, 2016, 06:34:29 PM
Maybe Interstate 11 could meet Interstate 10 at the AZ 85 junction. Or is that too far west to be practical?

I wouldn't be surprised if AZ 85 became I-11 to around Gila Bend, but there is a large mountain just north of the AZ 85/I-10 T-interchange that would prohibit I-11 from properly intersecting there. It would most likely come down around Sun Valley Parkway and have a short duplex with I-10 for the few miles between the two.

So many people really want that Interstate west of the White Tanks, what a waste...at least in my opinion.  I don't think anyone would seriously be even looking at it if Buckeye had annexed so much land.  Really if the purpose is to serve Phoenix and Vegas I-11 ought to follow Grand/US 60 to the 303 and cut south to I-10.  Either routing I-11 down AZ 85 or the Estrella bypass to Maricopa/Casa Grande would still be viable.

West of the White Tanks is the next westward surge in growth if the economy recovers enough to make it viable again. The recession in 2008 killed all that, but there was that one big subdivision out there that got partially built before the collapse and that was Tartesso. Dirt was carved out further north for another one, but it never made it beyond the grader. If I-11 got put in along Sun Valley Parkway, that would open that whole area back up again for development and jump start everything that died in 2008.

Okay, how is that a reasonable commute for anyone to have AN ENTIRE mountain range obstructing them from the rest of the city.  It's not like we're talking about a bypass like the I-11 Estrella path or the 202 Bypass of South Mountain.  This would literally serve nobody with this whole flight of fancy that it's going to spur growth in an area that has none.  That's the problem with people in Phoenix these days, they seem to think that the massive urban sprawl will have no end.  Real estate development at the pace that Phoenix was seeing post recession was unhealthy and ultimately played a huge part in what caused it in the first place.  Peoria and Goodyear did the same thing Buckeye did annexing up parcels of land only to have them completely undeveloped.  At least with Peoria annexing land up to AZ 74 it will be in the actual Valley and with Goodyear it will still have short access to I-10.  I might be far less skeptical of the "West of the White Tanks plan" if it was say something along the lines of AZ Loop 404 or something.  Develop the Interstate route for what it's meant for....the west of Tucson jabber is equally inane.

If people are willing to live all the way out in effing San Tan Valley, I don't see any reason west of the White Tanks would be any worse. At least from there the entire corridor could develop from I-11, along with the corridor along the 303. There's the Amazon DC and all kinds of other stuff out there, so anyone living out there wouldn't exactly have to drive to Downtown Phoenix for anything.

Now whether or not it makes sense to sprawl out that far is a completely logical argument, one I'm with you on. But I do think that if I-11 went along Sun Valley Parkway on that side of the White Tanks, it would really open up that entire area for legitimate development.
If you used to draw freeways on your homework and got reprimanded by your Senior English teacher for doing so, you might be a road geek!

Max Rockatansky

Yeah I had a guy who worked for me that lived out in Queen Creek before the 202 was finished it and getting cliche for it to be the lower-middle class bedroom community for the Phoenix Area.  It took him about an hour or hour and fifteen minutes to get to work in Chandler in those days.  Now San Tan has basically become the newer version of the same thing and there isn't even a foreseeable freeway extension planned that way.  It's just hard to see all those empty tracs of land along US 60 (excluding former Socialist Circle City, Wittmann, and Morristown) and seeing how not trying to develop that corridor first doesn't make more sense.  You're right though, it probably will develop the White Tank area for good or bad

Interstate Trav

So if this happens will I-11 be about 30 miles west of Phoenix, similiar to how I-15 is about 40 miles East of Los Angeles?

kdk

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 24, 2016, 07:59:04 AM
Yeah I had a guy who worked for me that lived out in Queen Creek before the 202 was finished it and getting cliche for it to be the lower-middle class bedroom community for the Phoenix Area.  It took him about an hour or hour and fifteen minutes to get to work in Chandler in those days.  Now San Tan has basically become the newer version of the same thing and there isn't even a foreseeable freeway extension planned that way.  It's just hard to see all those empty tracs of land along US 60 (excluding former Socialist Circle City, Wittmann, and Morristown) and seeing how not trying to develop that corridor first doesn't make more sense.  You're right though, it probably will develop the White Tank area for good or bad

Agree.  When the closer in areas get too expensive then the new developments way out go up.  Sun Valley Parkway was actually built in the early 90s for the wave of development that was planned out there then, and still hasn't really come but will eventually.  It is just like San Tan Valley in the east or even Anthem up north, seems far but it will develop one of these cycles.

kdk

Quote from: swbrotha100 on August 23, 2016, 01:17:26 PM
Quote from: coatimundi on August 23, 2016, 01:04:52 AM
Quote from: swbrotha100 on August 22, 2016, 07:09:25 PM
I have seen renderings of a freeway connection online before of a connection from I-8 to the 4 lane divided highway section of 85 to the north. I can't find it now, but it was part of the long range plan on improvements ADOT had for 85.

Could this have been an alternative considered when the 85/Business 8 intersection in Gila Bend was rebuilt? It seems like someone with some foresight would have at least put that on paper.

This link has it:

https://azdot.gov/docs/default-source/environmental-planning-library/sr85_gila_bend_final_ea.pdf?sfvrsn=2

Rendering of a potential freeway interchange between I-8 and SR 85 is on page 18 of the file.

Thanks for finding that.  It looks like that new road alignment that was done north of town was actually designed in order to accommodate the freeway to freeway connection with the 8 now that I see this.  I was wondering why they designed what looked to be to direct traffic more towards Maricopa Road when 80% of the traffic was heading up the 85.  Now I see why with 85 becoming the freeway it would now intersect essentially Maricopa Road, with the old 85 connection essentially an access road for the airport. 

707

Quote from: kdk on August 24, 2016, 02:48:55 PM
Quote from: swbrotha100 on August 23, 2016, 01:17:26 PM
Quote from: coatimundi on August 23, 2016, 01:04:52 AM
Quote from: swbrotha100 on August 22, 2016, 07:09:25 PM
I have seen renderings of a freeway connection online before of a connection from I-8 to the 4 lane divided highway section of 85 to the north. I can't find it now, but it was part of the long range plan on improvements ADOT had for 85.

Could this have been an alternative considered when the 85/Business 8 intersection in Gila Bend was rebuilt? It seems like someone with some foresight would have at least put that on paper.

This link has it:

https://azdot.gov/docs/default-source/environmental-planning-library/sr85_gila_bend_final_ea.pdf?sfvrsn=2

Rendering of a potential freeway interchange between I-8 and SR 85 is on page 18 of the file.

Thanks for finding that.  It looks like that new road alignment that was done north of town was actually designed in order to accommodate the freeway to freeway connection with the 8 now that I see this.  I was wondering why they designed what looked to be to direct traffic more towards Maricopa Road when 80% of the traffic was heading up the 85.  Now I see why with 85 becoming the freeway it would now intersect essentially Maricopa Road, with the old 85 connection essentially an access road for the airport.

I've noticed around the Lewis prison, it appears the old 85 past the freeway grade interchange is now a local frontage road.

swbrotha100

There are a few older segments in this corridor that are just frontage roads now.

707

Quote from: swbrotha100 on August 25, 2016, 02:52:58 PM
There are a few older segments in this corridor that are just frontage roads now.

Are you talking about the segments near Buckeye?



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