I-41, An AASHTO Violation?

[Bickendan]

How so?

It is an intrastate spur that can easily be seen as a 3di off of I-43. 

Same logic could almost be applied to I-17 or I-19, and I-19's shorter than I-41's 'standalone' section.

[sparker]

At the risk of injecting my view into what appears to be an ongoing argument among various posters, I certainly don't see any point in substituting a relatively long 3di for a relatively short 2di except to satisfy the preference of that poster for "rules" that don't exist in statute nor in practice.  The Interstate system doesn't have the "just about anything goes" nature of the US network, where US 281 was always longer than its parent (a situation likely not anticipated back in the 1920's, when the system was being instituted).  If an Interstate route serves as a connector to or from a major traffic generator (and major ports of entry serve as such -- e.g. the I-19 rationale); or a connector between individual metro areas, then a trunk number, if one is available, would be appropriate.  It's not as if FHWA/AASHTO is playing "fantasy football" with the numbers, reserving them for corridors that may be built at a time TBD (increasingly unlikely); they're applying them as needed (see I-42).  Of course, there are exceptions like I-476, designated because nothing else was available in the area -- but by and large, the Interstate grid is holding up significantly better than the U.S. highway grid.

There are short U.S. 2dus routes (8, 46, 57, 73), but the grousing level seems to be much less regarding these than corresponding Interstates (OK, even I'll admit I-97's a bit pathetic!).  I-41 was probably the best of a bad lot of choices for the corridor on which it exists (blame '60's & '70's regional designation miscues for the dilemma), regardless of whether US 41 is "sunk" into the mix or not.  It's there, it's signed, it essentially does its job of giving a WI metro "swath" trunk Interstate access, and it's not going to go away -- a done deal.  Personally, I think they should have extended the I-designation up to the 41/141 split at Abrams, but that's certainly not my call (the HPC 57 inclusion in 2005's SAFETEA-LU ended the corridor at Green Bay, which likely carried the day regarding how far signage extended). 

"Interstate" functions as a trademark, not a requirement.  Always has, always will.       

 

[SEWIGuy]

How so?

It is an intrastate spur that can easily be seen as a 3di off of I-43. 

Yeah you keep saying this.  AASHTO disagrees.  You lose.

[Rothman]

How so?

It is an intrastate spur that can easily be seen as a 3di off of I-43. 

Same logic could almost be applied to I-17 or I-19, and I-19's shorter than I-41's 'standalone' section.

Sure, why not.  Also, I-12.

[Rothman]

How so?

It is an intrastate spur that can easily be seen as a 3di off of I-43. 

Yeah you keep saying this.  AASHTO disagrees.  You lose.

Never give up, never surrender!

[slorydn1]

At the risk of injecting my view into what appears to be an ongoing argument among various posters, I certainly don't see any point in substituting a relatively long 3di for a relatively short 2di except to satisfy the preference of that poster for "rules" that don't exist in statute nor in practice.  The Interstate system doesn't have the "just about anything goes" nature of the US network, where US 281 was always longer than its parent (a situation likely not anticipated back in the 1920's, when the system was being instituted).  If an Interstate route serves as a connector to or from a major traffic generator (and major ports of entry serve as such -- e.g. the I-19 rationale); or a connector between individual metro areas, then a trunk number, if one is available, would be appropriate.  It's not as if FHWA/AASHTO is playing "fantasy football" with the numbers, reserving them for corridors that may be built at a time TBD (increasingly unlikely); they're applying them as needed (see I-42).  Of course, there are exceptions like I-476, designated because nothing else was available in the area -- but by and large, the Interstate grid is holding up significantly better than the U.S. highway grid.

There are short U.S. 2dus routes (8, 46, 57, 73), but the grousing level seems to be much less regarding these than corresponding Interstates (OK, even I'll admit I-97's a bit pathetic!).  I-41 was probably the best of a bad lot of choices for the corridor on which it exists (blame '60's & '70's regional designation miscues for the dilemma), regardless of whether US 41 is "sunk" into the mix or not.  It's there, it's signed, it essentially does its job of giving a WI metro "swath" trunk Interstate access, and it's not going to go away -- a done deal.  Personally, I think they should have extended the I-designation up to the 41/141 split at Abrams, but that's certainly not my call (the HPC 57 inclusion in 2005's SAFETEA-LU ended the corridor at Green Bay, which likely carried the day regarding how far signage extended). 

"Interstate" functions as a trademark, not a requirement.  Always has, always will.       

 

This sums up my feelings on this pretty much word for word.


I mean, yeah, I once stumped for I-42 to be an odd I-x40 (340 came to mind) but that was because compared to I-41, I-42 (when completed) functions more like a spur off of I-40 than a standalone trunkline interstate.  That said, I didn't lose any sleep over the I-42 designation, and I-41 definitely has more of a standalone trunkline feel to it than I-42 will have here.

[The Ghostbuster]

Like I said before, there are plenty of Interstate designations that are likely bigger violations of AASHTO than Interstate 41. My examples: Interstate 99, Interstate 238, Interstates 73/74 in NC, Interstate 180 (WY), Interstates 69E, 69C, 69W.

[hbelkins]

How so?

It is an intrastate spur that can easily be seen as a 3di off of I-43. 

Same logic could almost be applied to I-17 or I-19, and I-19's shorter than I-41's 'standalone' section.

Sure, why not.  Also, I-12.

12 should be 10 and that portion of 10 that 12 bypasses should be an x10.

An intrastate Interstate that connects to the same route at both ends should be a 3di.  But hey, maybe Pittsburgh should ask AASHTO and FHWA to redesignate I-376 and the eastern I-82 (and yes, I know that it connects to I-80 at its western terminus.) But I-41 being a 2di is just as logical as redesignating I-376 as a 2di would be.

[texaskdog]

How so?

It is an intrastate spur that can easily be seen as a 3di off of I-43. 

Same logic could almost be applied to I-17 or I-19, and I-19's shorter than I-41's 'standalone' section.

Sure, why not.  Also, I-12.

12 should be 10 and that portion of 10 that 12 bypasses should be an x10.

An intrastate Interstate that connects to the same route at both ends should be a 3di.  But hey, maybe Pittsburgh should ask AASHTO and FHWA to redesignate I-376 and the eastern I-82 (and yes, I know that it connects to I-80 at its western terminus.) But I-41 being a 2di is just as logical as redesignating I-376 as a 2di would be.

Exactly.  I also think routes like 10 should take the most logical route around a town instead of through it, like I-94 should follow the 694 routing through NE suburbs of Saint Paul.  Get more of the traffic OUT of the city.  If you want to go into the city then you have for example I-194

[SEWIGuy]

How so?

It is an intrastate spur that can easily be seen as a 3di off of I-43. 

Same logic could almost be applied to I-17 or I-19, and I-19's shorter than I-41's 'standalone' section.

Sure, why not.  Also, I-12.

12 should be 10 and that portion of 10 that 12 bypasses should be an x10.

An intrastate Interstate that connects to the same route at both ends should be a 3di.  But hey, maybe Pittsburgh should ask AASHTO and FHWA to redesignate I-376 and the eastern I-82 (and yes, I know that it connects to I-80 at its western terminus.) But I-41 being a 2di is just as logical as redesignating I-376 as a 2di would be.

That would be fine by me.

[The Ghostbuster]

I doubt Interstate 376 will be renumbered to a 2-digit Interstate, although I do find the proposition logical. 84.7 miles is quite lengthily for a 3 digit Interstate. As for Interstate 41, I think that was the correct number for the corridor.

[GaryV]

As for Interstate 41, I think that was the correct number for the corridor.

Correct number, just wrong (unneeded) shield.

[sparker]

12 should be 10 and that portion of 10 that 12 bypasses should be an x10.

Given the penchant for suffixed numbers during the first 1957-58 numbering iteration of the Interstate system, I'm surprised the 10/12 regional network in that part of LA wasn't originally dubbed "10S" and "10N".   

[Rothman]

Pfft.  Leave I-376 alone.  It is a spur into a city from its parent route.

[Anthony_JK]

And, leave I-10 and I-12 alone, too. They both serve their purposes. I-10 connects New Orleans to the most significant W-E Interstate highway; and I-12 serves as its bypass.

[Rothman]

And, leave I-10 and I-12 alone, too. They both serve their purposes. I-10 connects New Orleans to the most significant W-E Interstate highway; and I-12 serves as its bypass.

Nah.  Change I-12 to I-810.

[sparker]

And, leave I-10 and I-12 alone, too. They both serve their purposes. I-10 connects New Orleans to the most significant W-E Interstate highway; and I-12 serves as its bypass.

Nah.  Change I-12 to I-810.

Yeah...spend a boatload of $$ re-signing a route that's been in existence for about 50 years and is ingrained in both local lore and the minds of every trucker traveling in that neck of the woods!  All joking aside, it's perfectly fine as is; if anyone wants to do another I-12 in TX or elsewhere (just peruse the I-14 thread!), they can knock themselves out!

[LoveFishChicken7577]

I think an exception can be made due to the fact that I-41 is really just a long freeway section of US-41. The regulation in reference here is meant to avoid confusion between US routes and Interstate routes. Given the fact that it is just a differently designated section of US-41, this confusion is nonexistent. If they weren't related in this way, it's likely that AASHTO wouldn't have been okay with keeping both routes concurrent and would've gone with a different number.

[Darkchylde]

12 should be 10 and that portion of 10 that 12 bypasses should be an x10.

Given the penchant for suffixed numbers during the first 1957-58 numbering iteration of the Interstate system, I'm surprised the 10/12 regional network in that part of LA wasn't originally dubbed "10S" and "10N".   

Considering how the Northshore's exploded in population since the Interstates were built, I'd argue they're of equal enough importance to be designated such now... but that's a topic for Fictional or Southeast, probably.

As to I-41, I don't like it. I really wish it would have been designated as an I-55 extension or as a 3di. But I don't see what other corridor likely to become an Interstate in the near future could have used that number instead.

[jwolfer]

12 should be 10 and that portion of 10 that 12 bypasses should be an x10.

Given the penchant for suffixed numbers during the first 1957-58 numbering iteration of the Interstate system, I'm surprised the 10/12 regional network in that part of LA wasn't originally dubbed "10S" and "10N".   

Considering how the Northshore's exploded in population since the Interstates were built, I'd argue they're of equal enough importance to be designated such now... but that's a topic for Fictional or Southeast, probably.

As to I-41, I don't like it. I really wish it would have been designated as an I-55 extension or as a 3di. But I don't see what other corridor likely to become an Interstate in the near future could have used that number instead.

If i recall 12 was originally planned to be longer... Probably just kept original planning numbers...

10/12 is like 55/57. The x0 or x5 number went to the "big city". New Orleans and St Louis... Both cities were much more prominent in 1950 (no offense to civic boosters, my home city Jacksonville has been eclipsed by the upstart Orlando since 1970)

New Orleans has been eclipsed by Houston, Dallas and Atlanta as the most important Southern cities. 100 years ago the ONLY big city in the South was NO

St Louis has just lost a lot of prestige to sunbelt cities like Phoenix

LGMS428

[sparker]

If i recall 12 was originally planned to be longer... Probably just kept original planning numbers...

LGMS428

IIRC, the original I-12 alignment veered ENE from its present routing somewhere near Covington, LA, and terminated at I-59 north of Picayune, MS.  This always surprised me, as it effectively prevented I-12 from being an efficient bypass of NO vis-a-vis I-10; perhaps at the time it was thought that there would be more commercial Texas-bound/originating traffic from & to I-59 than from eastward I-10, and this would save that traffic a few miles.  Obviously, by the time the original system was finalized circa '58, a change of mind had occurred. 

[The Ghostbuster]

I still think the Interstate 41 designation is the right one for the corridor. That's the number that was chosen, and that's the number it will remain.

[Flint1979]

I think this is the part of the country where the US highways and Interstate highways have issues where they use the same number which wasn't suppose to be allowed. This is why there is no I-50 or I-60 because those highways would travel through the same states as US 50 and US 60 do. I am not sure why they are allowing this to happen now though.

[Milwaukee, WY]

I still think the Interstate 41 designation is the right one for the corridor. That's the number that was chosen, and that's the number it will remain.

I still would have personally preferred 55 or even 45. But it's all a moot point now anyways.

[SEWIGuy]

I think this is the part of the country where the US highways and Interstate highways have issues where they use the same number which wasn't suppose to be allowed. This is why there is no I-50 or I-60 because those highways would travel through the same states as US 50 and US 60 do. I am not sure why they are allowing this to happen now though.

It's been in place for awhile now and I doubt it has caused a single bit of confusion - mostly since US-41 and I-41 are the same highway.