Dodge Challenger Demon

[Max Rockatansky]

Apparently this is a thing now, a regular production sub-10 drag car:

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/dodge/challenger/2018/2018-dodge-challenger-srt-demon-first-look-review/

Supposedly you need 100 octane to get the full 840hp but you still get 808hp from 91 octane pump gas.  Kind of makes think that these are going to go for at least 100k with dealer mark ups for sure, although 3,300 units is a surprisingly high number for a car that is meant really just to go fast in a straight line.

[nexus73]

$100K, pffft!  For that much equine motivation, this car is a bargain.  1000 Secretariats under the hood runs around $2 mil.  840, close enough for government work...LOL!

I wonder if the MPG on the highway is in single digits?

Rick

[Takumi]

I just want to see someone take it to Laguna Seca.

[Max Rockatansky]

$100K, pffft!  For that much equine motivation, this car is a bargain.  1000 Secretariats under the hood runs around $2 mil.  840, close enough for government work...LOL!

I wonder if the MPG on the highway is in single digits?

Rick

It would probably be pretty similar to the Hellcat when 91 octane is being used.  That's actually why I'm surprised it is 3,000 units in the U.S. since it large enough not to really have a positive impact on the EPA score for Dodge.  I'm curious to see what the MSRP would be, it is awfully tempting to go talk to a dealer, but again I own my 2016 outright...485hp at the end of the day ain't bad for what I have.  I guess this kind of replaces the brand halo that the Viper was.

quote author=Takumi link=topic=20006.msg2217843#msg2217843 date=1492011933]
I just want to see someone take it to Laguna Seca.
[/quote]

Yeah we should take over/unders.

[cpzilliacus]

Apparently this is a thing now, a regular production sub-10 drag car:

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/dodge/challenger/2018/2018-dodge-challenger-srt-demon-first-look-review/

Supposedly you need 100 octane to get the full 840hp but you still get 808hp from 91 octane pump gas.  Kind of makes think that these are going to go for at least 100k with dealer mark ups for sure, although 3,300 units is a surprisingly high number for a car that is meant really just to go fast in a straight line.

Given a choice, and a whole lot of money that I do not have, I would much prefer the 1964 Super Stock Dodge (famously featured in The Little Old Lady (from Pasadena) track by Jan and Dean).

The hyperlinked Wikipedia article above about the song has a picture of a Super Stock Dodge embedded.

[Henry]

As if the SRT and Hellcat weren't enough, they had to pull out the Demon too! Then again, this is Dodge, so we were kind of expecting it to happen.

[Max Rockatansky]

Apparently this is a thing now, a regular production sub-10 drag car:

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/dodge/challenger/2018/2018-dodge-challenger-srt-demon-first-look-review/

Supposedly you need 100 octane to get the full 840hp but you still get 808hp from 91 octane pump gas.  Kind of makes think that these are going to go for at least 100k with dealer mark ups for sure, although 3,300 units is a surprisingly high number for a car that is meant really just to go fast in a straight line.

Given a choice, and a whole lot of money that I do not have, I would much prefer the 1964 Super Stock Dodge (famously featured in The Little Old Lady (from Pasadena) track by Jan and Dean).

The hyperlinked Wikipedia article above about the song has a picture of a Super Stock Dodge embedded.

Yeah I would too given the right amount of money, those Super Stocks were all-time classics and have been for awhile.  Really what is interesting to me is if a car like the Challenger Demon will hold its value or really become a true classic in time.  Supposedly increases in power output were going to subside with all the EPA economy hikes but nowadays 400 to 500hp is somewhat common place and very easily obtainable.  Who's to say that the progression won't continue for another 20 years with improving power train technology that an 800hp car would be something obtainable by the "every man" from the dealer.

[cjk374]

The NHRA is not going to allow the Demon on its tracks because it is too fast. 

Too fast for safety concerns or they fear it will be bad for competition? 

[Max Rockatansky]

The NHRA is not going to allow the Demon on its tracks because it is too fast. 

Too fast for safety concerns or they fear it will be bad for competition? 

Cars that can run the quarter mile in under 10 seconds are required to have a roll cage by NHRA rules.

[cpzilliacus]

Yeah I would too given the right amount of money, those Super Stocks were all-time classics and have been for awhile.

I am especially partial to the 1964 models, which have attractive styling for some reason.  A combination of a "sleeper" car with an assertive look anyway.

[Max Rockatansky]

Yeah I would too given the right amount of money, those Super Stocks were all-time classics and have been for awhile.

I am especially partial to the 1964 models, which have attractive styling for some reason.  A combination of a "sleeper" car with an assertive look anyway.

It certainly is clean looking.  I love how cars looked right as the muscle car era was starting before all the more gawdy designs came to fruition.  Another favorite of mine would be the 409 Impalas.

Check this out:

[cpzilliacus]

Yeah I would too given the right amount of money, those Super Stocks were all-time classics and have been for awhile.

I am especially partial to the 1964 models, which have attractive styling for some reason.  A combination of a "sleeper" car with an assertive look anyway.

It certainly is clean looking.  I love how cars looked right as the muscle car era was starting before all the more gawdy designs came to fruition.  Another favorite of mine would be the 409 Impalas.

Check this out:

Given a choice between Dodge and Plymouth, I would prefer the late and lamented Plymouth.

[Rothman]

1970 Hemi 'Cuda.

[Max Rockatansky]

1970 Hemi 'Cuda.

10 years ago I probably would have said something similar.  The issue now for me is two-fold; one power from the era prior to 1972 is inflated because the automakers rates everything in gross, two the prices of vintage muscle cars have inflated way out of control. 

It's hard to really justify a muscle car as something that can compete with modern cars in terms of power when you take 20% reduction off he advertised gross rating down to the modern net ratings.  A good example would be a 450hp 1970 LS6 Chevelle suddenly becoming 360hp from the simple switch to net ratings.  A lot of those cars had substandard suspensions and often carried drum brakes as well, they honestly for the most part couldn't keep with even the majority of late 1990s cars. 

But then again I really think people buy vintage muscle cars for the image they present and the idea behind them.  Really that was an era when almost model in a line could be made into the performance car of your dreams by getting the right options, something like that will never be truly repeated with the modern regulations.  I really hope with modern cars getting better and better that at some point that will tip the scales for stuff from the 1960s to early 1970s to come back down to a realistic price range. 

I'm not into the whole "resto-mod" thing that is such a bit deal these days.  It's a shame to see some vintage slant six cars butchered for the standard crate motors that anyone can get from GMPP.  Really the creative thing would be to take a car that was completely pedestrian and from the gas crisis era to trick out.  I'd love to see something obsurd like an LS7 in a Chevy Vega or an AMC Pacer with a modern 392 Hemi in it.

Hell I would love to overhaul my a Sonic once it reaches its expiration date.  Maybe something like a turbo-4 Ecotec, four wheel disc brakes, and a suspension upgrade?  I'd love to keep the paint the same to keep the Daily Driver look to it.  Silly yes, but I would love something that can be fun everyday that's cheap...my Challenger just sits in the garage most winters.

[nexus73]

"...the prices of vintage muscle cars have inflated way out of control."

Supply/demand.  Pure and simple.  Let me illustrate.  The production numbers for a 1971 Plymouth Hemi Cuda was in the 60's.  Not many, right?  Now figure only some of those survived.  From that, figure out how many stayed in mint condition?  See where this is going? 

Go to a Barrett Jackson auction or watch them on TV.  They get the primo stuff.  Primo + Rare = Expensive. 

Back In The Day: Kelly Blue Books would have an insurance symbol for the various models and those in the know paid attention to them.  You want cheap insurance?  You'd better show up with a 318 B-block in that 'Cuda.  Plenty of buyers did.  Oh, you want to step up to a 340?  Pay more.  A 383 Magnum?  Pay more than that.  A 440 Magnum?  Hope you got a deep wallet!  Hemi?  OMG $$$...LOL!  Insurance rates took the starch right out of the muscle car era as much as government regulation did.

So now having answered the supply side of this, let's look at demand.  When I was a teen, these were The Cars Everyone Drooled Over.  How many teens could afford to buy one?  I'm sure you know the answer to that question! *haha*  Now fast forward a few decades.  All those teens who survived their inexperience with life are now adults.  Some of them have money.  Some have Lotsa Money.  They see the toy of their dreams from back then.  Guess what?  They want to buy it. 

As buyers line up, sellers come along to meet the demand.  Barrett Jackson began as a classic (Thirties era) car auto auction.  Well, that's a fine market as far as it goes but if you're named Barrett or Jackson, you want to see if there's more moolah to be had.  The horizon of what you'll take in to put on the block expands.  Now you see Barrett Jackson bringing in thousands for a live audience and millions on TV.  Knowledgable commentators broadcast the auctions on Velocity, formerly Speed.  Everyone knows the rep of all involved. 

So with muscle cars combined with a generation aging and gaining wealth combined with live TV broadcasts of a high end auction that has an aura of honesty and a large audience, is it any wonder that even the recreations of rare muscle cars will bring 5 figures while the Real Deal hits for 6? 

Most of us have had chances in life to grab something cool when it was cheap before everyone else found out it was cool.  Well Max, you missed the boat apparently.  Don't feel too bad.  So did most of the rest of us...LOL!  "Oh if only I had held on to that 1966 Mustang 2+2 I had back in 1973!". 

Rick

[Max Rockatansky]

Yeah, we're talking E-Bodies though which in their time certainly were not desirable cars compared to the other pony car offerings.  One could argue that the E-Body in general really has inflated beyond the likes of the Mustang, Camaro, and Firebird simply because they didn't make that many...then throw on top something like a 440 or even a 426 Hemi it makes it even extra rare.  The crappy thing with the E-Body specifically given the low production numbers something like a 318, 340, and 383 command higher prices.

I guess the ironic thing for me is that the older muscle cars have become a symbol of wealth when they were original a symbol of affordable performance.  For me that's kind of a sad bit of irony.... 

I guess from that perspective I've tried to look at this as objectively as to what would suit my tastes to which I submit the following:

6a by Max Rockatansky, on Flickr

That's my 2016 Challenger Scat Pack that ordered brand new.  I could have probably found a 383 E-Body or even something like small block Camaro for the same money.  But here is the thing, those cars will never come close to out performing my car so long as they stock and if I got another vintage car I would want as close to stock as possible....but then that makes instantly afraid to drive whereas I'm not the with the 2016.  To put the gross to net conversion into to context, if you added a potential 20% to the 392 Hemi V8 that the Scat Pack uses that power rating jumps from 485hp net to 582hp in gross.  That's not even counting things like modern brakes, suspension, transmissions, or even the amenities that something new will provide  I much rather have something that was built specifically for me and is configured the way I want then spend a fortune on something that is just as expensive but I would have to trailer to a car show. 

Some more fun with numbers converting back 840 net horsepower out of a Challenger Demon gets you 1,008 at a 20% gain to gross or more conservatively 966 at 15%.  Could you imagine how people back in the 1960s would have reacted to figures like that out of the factory?

I guess from that extent the classic car market is something that I remember as being as more approachable.  Really it was shows like Barrett Jackson that really pushed the crank up in prices...but will those older muscle cars really hold the value 20 years from now?...I guess we'll have to see.  One thing is for sure being in the car hobby in any regard no matter the vintage is just a black hole for money, you never get back what you put in....never.  Funny to think in the context of now that my Dad treating his 396 Big Block 69 Camaro like it was just a used car back in the early 1980s....because it was!

I'm not saying that I would pass up on a project car that was just the right fit or even buying something vintage...but they need to be for the right price.  If I wanted to relive my childhood a G-Body Monte Carlo SS aero coupe would probably be on the short list....especially if that dog 305 could go buh-bye for something better ASAP.

Yeah I would too given the right amount of money, those Super Stocks were all-time classics and have been for awhile.

I am especially partial to the 1964 models, which have attractive styling for some reason.  A combination of a "sleeper" car with an assertive look anyway.

It certainly is clean looking.  I love how cars looked right as the muscle car era was starting before all the more gawdy designs came to fruition.  Another favorite of mine would be the 409 Impalas.

Check this out:

Given a choice between Dodge and Plymouth, I would prefer the late and lamented Plymouth.

I would too in most instances, although I would prefer a Challenger to a Cuda.  Regardless of what I owned I always preferred the Challenger's styling over the Cuda....odd considering I think Plymouths for most part look better than the Dodges.

[nexus73]

"...but will those older muscle cars really hold the value 20 years from now?"

The key is the generation to which a vehicle appeals to.  Collectors in the Sixties wanted the cars from the Thirties.  Obviously the value has plateaued for those with adjustment for inflation of course.  Today the Fifties cool cars are also plateaued.  Nomads, T-birds, 300 letter series cars and so on are past their generational appeal prime.  Time passes and the generations pass into the grave.

So about the time you and me are dead will be when what we like plateaus in its turn.  By then it will be too late for us to cash in...LOL!

If functionality is prized over collectability, then you chose the right path by buying the Challenger you did Max.  Another approach would be to do a restomod on an older car to make it modern in all aspects one desires.  Yet another is to go all original and live with the problem areas.  Just like shoes, there has to be a good fit between the driver and the vehicle!  You found yours and are happy.  On top of that, we're happy since you took your Dodge out of dodge and on da' road to provide us with a ton of cool pix!

Keep on cruisin',

Rick

[kkt]

The thing with the classics is that while they could be fast, their brakes and handling were really horrible by modern standards.  I wouldn't want to drive it hard at all.

[nexus73]

The thing with the classics is that while they could be fast, their brakes and handling were really horrible by modern standards.  I wouldn't want to drive it hard at all.

Don't forget the tires!  Z-rated stuff was later on down da' road!

Rick

[Max Rockatansky]

The thing with the classics is that while they could be fast, their brakes and handling were really horrible by modern standards.  I wouldn't want to drive it hard at all.

Don't forget the tires!  Z-rated stuff was later on down da' road!

Rick

A good set of retro-styled radials will always beat bias-ply.

[Max Rockatansky]

Found a fresh review on the Demon:

I'm a little disappointed that I haven't seen any test websites or magazines drop a 1/4 mile in the 9s.

[formulanone]

I'm a little disappointed that I haven't seen any test websites or magazines drop a 1/4 mile in the 9s.

Still impressive, though.

Media hype and press releases nearly always create faster track times than properly evaluated performance.

[PHLBOS]

$100K, pffft!  For that much equine motivation, this car is a bargain.  1000 Secretariats under the hood runs around $2 mil.  840, close enough for government work...LOL!
I wonder if the MPG on the highway is in single digits?
Rick

It would probably be pretty similar to the Hellcat when 91 octane is being used.  That's actually why I'm surprised it is 3,000 units in the U.S. since it large enough not to really have a positive impact on the EPA score for Dodge.  I'm curious to see what the MSRP would be, it is awfully tempting to go talk to a dealer, but again I own my 2016 outright...485hp at the end of the day ain't bad for what I have.  I guess this kind of replaces the brand halo that the Viper was.

From Dodge's website, the MSRP for the Challenger Demon is about $85K (actually lists $84,999).  Such was mentioned at last summer's Chrysler Nationals in Carlisle, PA.

Fuel Mileage-wise & FWIW; the Hellcat Challenger has a listed EPA highway fuel economy of 21 mpg/13 mpg city (not too shabby considering what the vehicle is IMHO).  I couldn't find any ratings for the Demon version (such may not have been yet published).  However, in all honesty, nobody is going to buy one of these type of cars for its fuel economy.

[Max Rockatansky]

$100K, pffft!  For that much equine motivation, this car is a bargain.  1000 Secretariats under the hood runs around $2 mil.  840, close enough for government work...LOL!
I wonder if the MPG on the highway is in single digits?
Rick

It would probably be pretty similar to the Hellcat when 91 octane is being used.  That's actually why I'm surprised it is 3,000 units in the U.S. since it large enough not to really have a positive impact on the EPA score for Dodge.  I'm curious to see what the MSRP would be, it is awfully tempting to go talk to a dealer, but again I own my 2016 outright...485hp at the end of the day ain't bad for what I have.  I guess this kind of replaces the brand halo that the Viper was.

From Dodge's website, the MSRP for the Challenger Demon is about $85K (actually lists $84,999).  Such was mentioned at last summer's Chrysler Nationals in Carlisle, PA.

Fuel Mileage-wise & FWIW; the Hellcat Challenger has a listed EPA highway fuel economy of 21 mpg/13 mpg city (not too shabby considering what the vehicle is IMHO).  I couldn't find any ratings for the Demon version (such may not have been yet published).  However, in all honesty, nobody is going to buy one of these type of cars for its fuel economy.

Yeah thing is that almost every dealer is going mark those Demons above 100k for sure.  The same thing happened when the Hellcat came out, might be a decent time to grab one of those at MSRP.  Hell, I'm averaging only 14.2 MPG over 3,900 miles in my Scat Pack....maybe single digits is possible in the Demon?

I'm a little disappointed that I haven't seen any test websites or magazines drop a 1/4 mile in the 9s.

Still impressive, though.

Media hype and press releases nearly always create faster track times than properly evaluated performance.

Supposedly that 9.65 quarter mile run is NHRA certified, so someone actually really went and ran that somewhere.  It just makes me wonder what the configuration of the car was and what the weather was like. 

[PHLBOS]

Yeah thing is that almost every dealer is going mark those Demons above 100k for sure.  The same thing happened when the Hellcat came out, might be a decent time to grab one of those at MSRP.  Hell, I'm averaging only 14.2 MPG over 3,900 miles in my Scat Pack....maybe single digits is possible in the Demon?

IIRC & on one car forum; Dodge supposedly warned dealerships not to go bonkers with marking-up the prices on the Hellcat versions when they first rolled out (they wanted the cars to be actually sold & on the road).  Whether or not the dealerships complied w/such is unknown. 

Given the 3000 production ceiling on the Demon; Dodge may not have issued a similar warning to the dealers.

Is that 14.2 mpg average you're getting mostly around-town driving or highway.  It's probably a reasonable assumption that the 23 mph highway rating was not obtained doing 80+ mph.  Most of today's overdrive transmissions hit the fuel economy sweetspot (i.e. highest) between 65-75 mph.