EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)

[kalvado]

NYC crossings are basically priced to help build the new PANYNJ-owed World Trade Center.  Remove that from the equation and the tolls fall nearly in half.

I believe legally it is for the PATH, which "reduces crossings congestion, thus benefiting tollpayers"  or something along those lines..

[jeffandnicole]

NYC crossings are basically priced to help build the new PANYNJ-owed World Trade Center.  Remove that from the equation and the tolls fall nearly in half.

I believe legally it is for the PATH, which "reduces crossings congestion, thus benefiting tollpayers"  or something along those lines..

There's nothing, legal wise, saying that's what tolls are used for.

Their press releases thru the past decade/15 years detail a relation to increased costs for buildings, security, maintenance, airport expansions and other items as reasons to raise both tolls and fares.

[roadman]

Just looking at that from the other side: many toll roads don't get outside financing - but I still pay tax on the gas I burn on that road. This is called "double dipping". Works a bit different for trucks, but I am talking about commuters.

Actually, it's not "double dipping" unless the toll road agency receives a portion of the gas tax revenue to fund their operations.  I don't believe this situation currently exists with any toll road agency in the country.

[MikeTheActuary]

I'm not opposed to the concept of transponder discrimination when it's used to account for revenue/cost differences, or as an admittedly imperfect proxy for volume discounts.

However, once the discrimination rises to a level beyond what those considerations would reasonably justify...I think there's a problem.  The tit-for-tat de-discounting are a sign of such a problem.  And I'd love to hear how the Newport Bridge toll differential is justified.

[hotdogPi]

And I'd love to hear how the Newport Bridge toll differential is justified.

Maybe because there are only two ways to leave the island containing Jamestown, RI, and the residents of that island would be using that bridge extremely often. (The other way out was tolled temporarily, and then the toll was removed.)

I believe there's a similar discount for the Thousand Islands bridge in New York.

[kalvado]

Just looking at that from the other side: many toll roads don't get outside financing - but I still pay tax on the gas I burn on that road. This is called "double dipping". Works a bit different for trucks, but I am talking about commuters.

Actually, it's not "double dipping" unless the toll road agency receives a portion of the gas tax revenue to fund their operations.  I don't believe this situation currently exists with any toll road agency in the country.

Well, it may not be "double dipping" per se - but definitely I am being charged twice for same drive. But I assume we all get the idea...

[jeffandnicole]

Just looking at that from the other side: many toll roads don't get outside financing - but I still pay tax on the gas I burn on that road. This is called "double dipping". Works a bit different for trucks, but I am talking about commuters.

Actually, it's not "double dipping" unless the toll road agency receives a portion of the gas tax revenue to fund their operations.  I don't believe this situation currently exists with any toll road agency in the country.

Well, it may not be "double dipping" per se - but definitely I am being charged twice for same drive. But I assume we all get the idea...

Yeah, it's a well-worn argument.  I guess I could say the same when I buy gas to use in my lawnmower to mow the lawn - I'm already paying taxes on my property...why do I need to pay a fuel tax to mow the lawn I'm already paying a tax on?

[MikeTheActuary]

And I'd love to hear how the Newport Bridge toll differential is justified.

Maybe because there are only two ways to leave the island containing Jamestown, RI, and the residents of that island would be using that bridge extremely often. (The other way out was tolled temporarily, and then the toll was removed.)

I believe there's a similar discount for the Thousand Islands bridge in New York.

The OP's comment made it seem like all Rhode Islanders got a deep discount using the bridge.

If it were just folks local to the bridge who "have" to use it getting the price break, that would make a certain amount of sense.  But if it's all Rhode Islanders....that feels excessive (although Rhode Island is, I guess, just about small enough for the entire state to be considered "local").

[kalvado]

Just looking at that from the other side: many toll roads don't get outside financing - but I still pay tax on the gas I burn on that road. This is called "double dipping". Works a bit different for trucks, but I am talking about commuters.

Actually, it's not "double dipping" unless the toll road agency receives a portion of the gas tax revenue to fund their operations.  I don't believe this situation currently exists with any toll road agency in the country.

Well, it may not be "double dipping" per se - but definitely I am being charged twice for same drive. But I assume we all get the idea...

Yeah, it's a well-worn argument.  I guess I could say the same when I buy gas to use in my lawnmower to mow the lawn - I'm already paying taxes on my property...why do I need to pay a fuel tax to mow the lawn I'm already paying a tax on?

ANd farm fuel is tax exempt for that exact reason.
With lawn mower, you basically talking about maybe $1-2 per month (NY has about $0.60/gallon total tax - state, federal and local), or $10-20 for the year. Which is well within budgeting tolerance from my perspective.
Someone driving to work via toll road - I just looked up s0me stretch I know commute-heavy - $0.70 per trip, pretty modest for a toll road. 250 working days/year @2 one-way trips/day add up to $350, which is not quite negligible.
Things may be even more steep if we're talking about island residents and associated  bridge crossings...

[kalvado]

And I'd love to hear how the Newport Bridge toll differential is justified.

Maybe because there are only two ways to leave the island containing Jamestown, RI, and the residents of that island would be using that bridge extremely often. (The other way out was tolled temporarily, and then the toll was removed.)

I believe there's a similar discount for the Thousand Islands bridge in New York.

The OP's comment made it seem like all Rhode Islanders got a deep discount using the bridge.

If it were just folks local to the bridge who "have" to use it getting the price break, that would make a certain amount of sense.  But if it's all Rhode Islanders....that feels excessive (although Rhode Island is, I guess, just about small enough for the entire state to be considered "local").

Actually, I do have a link to a court case on that bridge crossing; it goes into some interesting and counter-intuitive details in discussion. But, interestingly enough, they changed policy - now one  has to live in RI _AND_ apply for the plan to get a discount. I assume that is done to select those, who actually travel often enough to bother - as opposed to once a year island visitors who happen to live in RI.

[SP Cook]

Actually, it's not "double dipping" unless the toll road agency receives a portion of the gas tax revenue to fund their operations. 

Well, "double dipping" is probably not exactly the right term, but it is something.

Let's use the WV Turnpike as an example.  A quick look at the map shows it location. and its importance.

Understand that all WVians pay the same gas tax, regardless of where they live.   Now, let's divide the state into several groups.  (Obviously there are nitpick exceptions and not everybody fits into a neat group, but work with me).

- Most people who live somewhere near or north of Charleston.  At best these people will use the road once or twice per year, such as a vaction trip south out-of-state.

- People in the eastern panhandle (or the extreme SW corner of the state) who will probably never drive on the road.

- People in Bluefield, Beckley, and Lewisburg and its hinterland.  They must use the road many times per year, to reach the state capital, financial center, and health care and shopping hub (Charleston) or to attend either of the two legitimate universities (Huntington or Morgantown) or, in fact, to reach about anywhere else in the state.  For a road that has been paid off since 1987 and for which the toll revenue (that which is not wasted or stolen) will be tossed into the general state pot for all to share.

Yet all will pay the same gas tax.   It may not be double dipping, but it is certainly double taxing.

BTW, if you care to, you can get tax exempt fuel or tax refunds for motor fuel not used for highway use.  That is what farmers, rivermen, construction outfits and such do.  For a lawn mower the amount involved is too trivial to worry about.  Maybe $3/year?

[vdeane]

I would call getting both gas tax revenue and tolls for driving on a certain road double dipping.  The gas tax is supposed to be used for highway maintenance.  It's basically the "user fee" for non-toll roads.  Same for tolls.  So, for a toll road, you're paying two "user fees", one of which is free money for the state.

[jeffandnicole]

Just looking at that from the other side: many toll roads don't get outside financing - but I still pay tax on the gas I burn on that road. This is called "double dipping". Works a bit different for trucks, but I am talking about commuters.

Actually, it's not "double dipping" unless the toll road agency receives a portion of the gas tax revenue to fund their operations.  I don't believe this situation currently exists with any toll road agency in the country.

Well, it may not be "double dipping" per se - but definitely I am being charged twice for same drive. But I assume we all get the idea...

Yeah, it's a well-worn argument.  I guess I could say the same when I buy gas to use in my lawnmower to mow the lawn - I'm already paying taxes on my property...why do I need to pay a fuel tax to mow the lawn I'm already paying a tax on?

ANd farm fuel is tax exempt for that exact reason.
With lawn mower, you basically talking about maybe $1-2 per month (NY has about $0.60/gallon total tax - state, federal and local), or $10-20 for the year. Which is well within budgeting tolerance from my perspective.
Someone driving to work via toll road - I just looked up s0me stretch I know commute-heavy - $0.70 per trip, pretty modest for a toll road. 250 working days/year @2 one-way trips/day add up to $350, which is not quite negligible.
Things may be even more steep if we're talking about island residents and associated  bridge crossings...

The point was it's still 'double-dipping'.  Now it only matters above/below a certain threshold?  Geez.

[kalvado]

The point was it's still 'double-dipping'.  Now it only matters above/below a certain threshold?  Geez.

Well, lets try full sentence.
Cost of differentiating potential usage and enforcement of proper use of tax-free gas would need to be factored into the price of tax-exempt fuel, and likely outweigh the amount of tax paid. As such, it is actually cheaper and more efficien to use taxable fuel for non-taxed applications especially for small-scale users.

[hbelkins]

I would call getting both gas tax revenue and tolls for driving on a certain road double dipping.  The gas tax is supposed to be used for highway maintenance.  It's basically the "user fee" for non-toll roads.  Same for tolls.  So, for a toll road, you're paying two "user fees", one of which is free money for the state.

How would one classify the gasoline taxes paid at a toll road service center? You've paid a toll for the privilege of being able to pay the gas tax at that location. Perhaps gas at service plazas should be exempt from state taxation?

[kalvado]

I would call getting both gas tax revenue and tolls for driving on a certain road double dipping.  The gas tax is supposed to be used for highway maintenance.  It's basically the "user fee" for non-toll roads.  Same for tolls.  So, for a toll road, you're paying two "user fees", one of which is free money for the state.

How would one classify the gasoline taxes paid at a toll road service center? You've paid a toll for the privilege of being able to pay the gas tax at that location. Perhaps gas at service plazas should be exempt from state taxation?

Good idea regarding tax-exempt fuel on a plaza! I already know where I would be getting all my gas in such a case, thank you!

[Duke87]

Now what doesn't make sense to me, is steep ($2-4) discount for NYC crossings (any EZpass, as far as I understand), where main goal of very steep toll is to push people into using public transportation to begin with?  If anything, those who come from further away - and likely would drive anyway - deserve to be treated easier.

The main goal of the very steep tolls is so that excess revenue from can be used to help subsidize public transit services. Not to encourage transit use.

Indeed, if you look at where the MTA's tolls are you may note that most of them are situated such that their average user does not have a reasonable public transit alternative.

If the purpose of the tolls were to encourage transit use, all the bridges into Manhattan (where there are lots of transit alternatives) would be heavily tolled and all of the bridges between The Bronx and Queens, Brooklyn and Staten Island, etc. (where there are no transit alternatives except a bus or two) would be free or tolled very lightly. Instead, there are a whole bunch of free bridges into Manhattan while people who want to go from Queens to The Bronx or Brooklyn to Staten Island have little choice but to pay up or stay home.

NYC crossings are basically priced to help build the new PANYNJ-owed World Trade Center.  Remove that from the equation and the tolls fall nearly in half.

This is a factor for PANYNJ crossings. Not for MTA crossings, since the MTA has nothing to do with the WTC.

I believe legally it is for the PATH, which "reduces crossings congestion, thus benefiting tollpayers"  or something along those lines..

There's nothing, legal wise, saying that's what tolls are used for.

Their press releases thru the past decade/15 years detail a relation to increased costs for buildings, security, maintenance, airport expansions and other items as reasons to raise both tolls and fares.

How about we let the budget do the talking. Numbers for 2017, ranked from most to least profitable.
Tolled Bridges and Tunnels: $758 million
Airports: $233 million
Non-WTC real estate: $10 million
Seaports: -$6 million
NJ 7 Wittpenn Bridge: -$100 million
PA Bus Terminal: -$157 million
Pulaski Skyway/Routes 1&9: -$160 million
PATH: -$341 million
WTC: -$412 million

Statistically, PATH and the WTC are both major drags on the Port Authority's budget. Of course, originally the WTC was intended to be a revenue source for the Port Authority that would cover the expenses of running PATH - great plan, but it required the WTC remain standing and functonal in order to work. So, you can blame Al Qaeda for the high tolls.

That said, also note the fifth and seventh items in my list. Paying to rebuild roadways that the Port Authority does not own, because NJ is too cheap to pay to do so themselves, also represents $260 million in expenditures for 2017.

[02 Park Ave]

The New Jersey Turnpike automatically gives a 25% discount to cars with NJ E-ZPasses during off-peak hours.  Peak hours are weekday rush hours and all day on weekends however.  The discount is given regardless of what state the car is from as long as it has a NJ E-ZPass.

[wanderer2575]

I would call getting both gas tax revenue and tolls for driving on a certain road double dipping.  The gas tax is supposed to be used for highway maintenance.  It's basically the "user fee" for non-toll roads.  Same for tolls.  So, for a toll road, you're paying two "user fees", one of which is free money for the state.

How would one classify the gasoline taxes paid at a toll road service center? You've paid a toll for the privilege of being able to pay the gas tax at that location. Perhaps gas at service plazas should be exempt from state taxation?

No, you've paid a toll solely for the privilege of driving on that road.  If you purchase gas, that's a completely separate transaction.  You don't necessarily have to buy gas on the toll road.  And if you do, likely you're not using it all there.

[cl94]

I would call getting both gas tax revenue and tolls for driving on a certain road double dipping.  The gas tax is supposed to be used for highway maintenance.  It's basically the "user fee" for non-toll roads.  Same for tolls.  So, for a toll road, you're paying two "user fees", one of which is free money for the state.

How would one classify the gasoline taxes paid at a toll road service center? You've paid a toll for the privilege of being able to pay the gas tax at that location. Perhaps gas at service plazas should be exempt from state taxation?

No, you've paid a toll solely for the privilege of driving on that road.  If you purchase gas, that's a completely separate transaction.  You don't necessarily have to buy gas on the toll road.  And if you do, likely you're not using it all there.

And nobody in their right mind would buy gas on the Thruway unless they have to because it's usually 5-10 cents more. Most of the exits have a gas station close by, several are truck stops. Exit 25A is a really good one, because if you get gas there and are getting on/off at 24, 25 or 26, you save half a buck by getting off and immediately back on compared to passing straight through.

[Brandon]

I would call getting both gas tax revenue and tolls for driving on a certain road double dipping.  The gas tax is supposed to be used for highway maintenance.  It's basically the "user fee" for non-toll roads.  Same for tolls.  So, for a toll road, you're paying two "user fees", one of which is free money for the state.

How would one classify the gasoline taxes paid at a toll road service center? You've paid a toll for the privilege of being able to pay the gas tax at that location. Perhaps gas at service plazas should be exempt from state taxation?

No, you've paid a toll solely for the privilege of driving on that road.  If you purchase gas, that's a completely separate transaction.  You don't necessarily have to buy gas on the toll road.  And if you do, likely you're not using it all there.

And nobody in their right mind would buy gas on the Thruway unless they have to because it's usually 5-10 cents more. Most of the exits have a gas station close by, several are truck stops. Exit 25A is a really good one, because if you get gas there and are getting on/off at 24, 25 or 26, you save half a buck by getting off and immediately back on compared to passing straight through.

Yeah, that was odd, out east with the higher prices at the service areas.  Around here, sometimes the tollway oasis can be cheaper than just off the tollway.  As an example, I paid $2.149/gallon for regular on I-88 at the DeKalb Oasis on Wednesday.  Off the tollway, it was more typically $2.199/gallon.  Even the food was pricier there.  Here, the tollway oasis restaurants typically respect the promotions and sales (like Monopoly at McDonald's, or the 6 inch meal deal at Subway).

[cl94]

The Thruway Mobils in particular are ridiculous. NYSTA lets them set prices at a few cents higher than the area average of that brand. However, Mobil stations in much of New York are typically a good 5-10 cents more expensive than everything else. Some of them are 15-20 cents more expensive than gas at a nearby exit. I don't eat at Thruway service areas either because prices are generally 20-30% higher and promotions aren't honored. The Sunocos aren't as ridiculous, but still more expensive than the Speedway, Cumberland Farms/Stewart's/Byrne Dairy/7-Eleven or truck stop near an exit.

[vdeane]

I would call getting both gas tax revenue and tolls for driving on a certain road double dipping.  The gas tax is supposed to be used for highway maintenance.  It's basically the "user fee" for non-toll roads.  Same for tolls.  So, for a toll road, you're paying two "user fees", one of which is free money for the state.

How would one classify the gasoline taxes paid at a toll road service center? You've paid a toll for the privilege of being able to pay the gas tax at that location. Perhaps gas at service plazas should be exempt from state taxation?

No, you've paid a toll solely for the privilege of driving on that road.  If you purchase gas, that's a completely separate transaction.  You don't necessarily have to buy gas on the toll road.  And if you do, likely you're not using it all there.

Seems to me it would be similar to the situation that exists now with buying out of state.  I remember when I had my internship in Sidney, back when gas was cheaper in PA than NY.  Every time I'd drive to/from Rochester, I'd refuel at exit 61 near where NY 17 dips into PA.  Essentially all of the gas I'd purchase for the trips was from PA, even though I couldn't have spent more than a tenth of mile on PA-maintained road each time.

[kalvado]

I would call getting both gas tax revenue and tolls for driving on a certain road double dipping.  The gas tax is supposed to be used for highway maintenance.  It's basically the "user fee" for non-toll roads.  Same for tolls.  So, for a toll road, you're paying two "user fees", one of which is free money for the state.

How would one classify the gasoline taxes paid at a toll road service center? You've paid a toll for the privilege of being able to pay the gas tax at that location. Perhaps gas at service plazas should be exempt from state taxation?

No, you've paid a toll solely for the privilege of driving on that road.  If you purchase gas, that's a completely separate transaction.  You don't necessarily have to buy gas on the toll road.  And if you do, likely you're not using it all there.

Seems to me it would be similar to the situation that exists now with buying out of state.  I remember when I had my internship in Sidney, back when gas was cheaper in PA than NY.  Every time I'd drive to/from Rochester, I'd refuel at exit 61 near where NY 17 dips into PA.  Essentially all of the gas I'd purchase for the trips was from PA, even though I couldn't have spent more than a tenth of mile on PA-maintained road each time.

This is, if you will, somewhat similar to gas for lawnmower situation we discussed above. Not all gas is used where it is sold, or for public roads. For a big state like NY having higher tax compensates for small revenue loss at the borders (and loss of revenue from reduced consumption). I wonder how that works in RI or DC, though...
Abuse of tax-free gas on Thruway is much more likely - and it will never happen.  And since gas tax doesn't pay for highway expenses any more - no tax rebates for toll roads as well.

[vdeane]

Plus not all toll roads have service areas.