Will Rogers Turnpike Toll Question

[apeman33]

And Texas has 85mph on the toll road around Austin south.  The toll authority has all but said the reason was for marketing.  They still are having trouble getting enough traffic on it.

On the other hand, I certainly didn't mind being able to do 80 (85?) legally on a four-lane road with low traffic counts.

[J N Winkler]

Maybe a little off-topic, but has anyone thought about the possibility of TA's tracking speed on those who use K-Tag, PikePass, etc., by estimating speed based on entrance and exit times in the system?

They could do that; this would be an average speed measure.  But actually they can nail you just by using the video cameras (every K-Tag lane has video surveillance) to measure how rapidly your vehicle clears the frame and comparing that to the regulatory speed limit on the plaza approach.  In fact, I suspect they can do that easily enough right now with human toll collectors, because I am sure the cash lanes have video surveillance as well; it would certainly be unsafe to assume that they do not.

However, toll authorities do not involve themselves in law enforcement.  Even after 20 years of K-Tag, Kansas is still very new to the concept of electronic tolling (as evidenced by KTA's very casual approach toward instructing users on how to fasten K-Tags to the windshield), but the Illinois Tollway is more sophisticated and sends out every transponder with a leaflet that explains its privacy policy, which requires law enforcement (with certain very limited exceptions) to obtain a subpoena to receive your toll plaza transit information.

Not that I am encouraging this, but since they have your address, etc., the local Highway Patrol could mail you a ticket, like they do with red-light cameras.

It would be deeply counterproductive to do that.  First, there would be all kinds of due-process concerns.  How do they know that the account holder was driving the car?  How do they account for stolen cars, stolen transponders, or cars sold or transferred without the transponder being removed?  (KTA, unlike some toll agencies like the Illinois Tollway, does not even require you to register a vehicle for use with electronic tolling.)  Second, toll agencies have shown little to no interest in exploring, let alone dealing with, the unintended consequences of dragnet enforcement, such as people stacking up and waiting in service areas to pull down their average speeds to the legal limit.  Third, people focused on avoiding pursuit for technical violations of the law are badly placed to help the police clear serious crimes without exposing themselves to legal liability.

Hoping they never do this... I like to fly a little low on the KTA.

At this point I have a K-Tag and an I-Pass, and I worry more about blown reads than about transponders being used for speed enforcement.  On the Illinois Tollway a video toll keeps you legal if your transponder fails to read, and your toll plaza transit history (downloadable as a CSV file when you log in to your account) explicitly marks video tolls as such, so you can see if your transponder is developing a problem.  KTA does not have a good way of handling blown reads:  the gate just stays down until someone comes out to ask you your entry point, while traffic stacks up behind you.  OTA does not have gates but does have lots of signs threatening effectively to hang you by your thumbs for toll evasion.  KTA, OTA, and the Illinois Tollway all have indicator lamps for successful reads at ramp plazas, but no agency has figured out how to give feedback for successful reads at ORT gantries.

It is a hassle to handle money and the car at the same time, but at least there is never any comeback for a cash toll paid in full.  A blown transponder read is a hostage to fortune:  you often can't tell when it has happened, let alone if or when it will result in surprise serious consequences like fines, blocks on license renewal, heavy interest charges, etc.  This is one reason I support the concept of a toll payer's bill of rights, to ensure that a transponder can be used with as much peace of mind as cash.

[lordsutch]

KTA, OTA, and the Illinois Tollway all have indicator lamps for successful reads at ramp plazas, but no agency has figured out how to give feedback for successful reads at ORT gantries.

It's ORT. They don't want you to have feedback, quite deliberately, because drivers will stop if the light doesn't turn green or slow down to look for the indicator. Or both. (The one exception is active tags, like FasTrak. It beeps when it is read by an ORT gantry, and the pattern is supposed to mean something. But even then they say don't stop if it doesn't beep.)

At least on all the toll systems I've used, every tag read shows up within a day at most in the online system--usually within a few minutes, unless inter-agency tolling is involved. As for blown reads, that's why you register your license plate with them; if they find it in the system, it gets billed like it was a tag read, and if they can't read your plate then they're not going to be able to track you down to pay the toll anyway (they'll go after some other poor sod if the OCR is wrong).

[J N Winkler]

(The one exception is active tags, like FasTrak. It beeps when it is read by an ORT gantry, and the pattern is supposed to mean something. But even then they say don't stop if it doesn't beep.)

I hadn't heard about FasTrak's in-car solution.  It sounds nice, but it wouldn't work for a deaf person and I don't know that a light would be a suitable supplemental solution since that would mean mounting the transponder where it can actually be seen by the driver (and thus occludes some of the viewing area through the windshield).

At least on all the toll systems I've used, every tag read shows up within a day at most in the online system--usually within a few minutes, unless inter-agency tolling is involved. As for blown reads, that's why you register your license plate with them; if they find it in the system, it gets billed like it was a tag read, and if they can't read your plate then they're not going to be able to track you down to pay the toll anyway (they'll go after some other poor sod if the OCR is wrong).

This description matches how the Illinois Tollway works.  With KTA it is more bare-bones.  Toll plaza transit history is available online only as part of the monthly statement, and there is no ability to register a vehicle to permit video tolling.

From a toll payer's perspective these are minor concerns as long as blown reads are administratively forgiven and unpaid tolls do not interfere with vehicle immatriculation.  In Kansas the latter will soon no longer apply since a new law (which entered in force at the start of this month) allows KTA to block registration renewal for unpaid tolls in excess of $100.

http://www.kslegislature.org/li/b2015_16/measures/documents/sb373_enrolled.pdf

The law is unclear as to whether "turnpike project" means a toll road only in Kansas, or includes toll roads in other states.  It also grants KTA rulemaking authority but is less than clear as to the scope.  My fear is that this will allow states with dysfunctional and one-sided toll collection regimes, such as Texas, to hold Kansas drivers hostage.  Most of the video tolling horror stories I have heard (such as misidentification of license plate issuing state) have come from Texas.

[US 41]

I've been that way three times. When heading westbound on I-44 I always get off at MO 43 (Exit 4 I think) and head south to US 60. Then I take US 60 west to Vinita where it hooks up to OK 66. It's not a bad toll free route. The speed limit is 65 on those routes in rural areas of course. I've always taken OK 66 all the way to OKC. Obviously you wouldn't be traveling near that far west.

A few notes.
1) In Seneca, MO take Alt US 60. It's a shortcut to westbound US 60.
2) When you get to US 59 there is a cloverleaf. Take the second right to stay on US 60 westbound. If you go straight you will end up on the tollway.
3) In Vinita follow OK 66 to US 69.

[Sykotyk]

I've been that way three times. When heading westbound on I-44 I always get off at MO 43 (Exit 4 I think) and head south to US 60. Then I take US 60 west to Vinita where it hooks up to OK 66. It's not a bad toll free route. The speed limit is 65 on those routes in rural areas of course. I've always taken OK 66 all the way to OKC. Obviously you wouldn't be traveling near that far west.

A few notes.
1) In Seneca, MO take Alt US 60. It's a shortcut to westbound US 60.
2) When you get to US 59 there is a cloverleaf. Take the second right to stay on US 60 westbound. If you go straight you will end up on the tollway.
3) In Vinita follow OK 66 to US 69.

I've done this same route. It's also nice, to me, to get off the freeways and explore the open middle of the country. East coast people don't seem to realize how fast roads move out west. 65mph with limited stops or slow downs and very little traffic.

[Avalanchez71]

I've been that way three times. When heading westbound on I-44 I always get off at MO 43 (Exit 4 I think) and head south to US 60. Then I take US 60 west to Vinita where it hooks up to OK 66. It's not a bad toll free route. The speed limit is 65 on those routes in rural areas of course. I've always taken OK 66 all the way to OKC. Obviously you wouldn't be traveling near that far west.

A few notes.
1) In Seneca, MO take Alt US 60. It's a shortcut to westbound US 60.
2) When you get to US 59 there is a cloverleaf. Take the second right to stay on US 60 westbound. If you go straight you will end up on the tollway.
3) In Vinita follow OK 66 to US 69.

So if one was to travel the aforementioned route this is the best way to "shunpike?"

[US 41]

Yes. Here's the link if you need a visual. https://goo.gl/maps/5cQ6HTCcX1B2

[US71]

I've been that way three times. When heading westbound on I-44 I always get off at MO 43 (Exit 4 I think) and head south to US 60. Then I take US 60 west to Vinita where it hooks up to OK 66. It's not a bad toll free route. The speed limit is 65 on those routes in rural areas of course. I've always taken OK 66 all the way to OKC. Obviously you wouldn't be traveling near that far west.

A few notes.
1) In Seneca, MO take Alt US 60. It's a shortcut to westbound US 60.
2) When you get to US 59 there is a cloverleaf. Take the second right to stay on US 60 westbound. If you go straight you will end up on the tollway.
3) In Vinita follow OK 66 to US 69.

BUSINESS 60 at Seneca. There is no Alt 60

[roadman65]

And Texas has 85mph on the toll road around Austin south.  The toll authority has all but said the reason was for marketing.  They still are having trouble getting enough traffic on it.

And they're still trying desperately to get trucks to take it by charging the 2-axle rate. The biggest issue for most trucks is that since most of the road is transponder/by-mail only, most won't take it because of how their company would handle the bill.

They are never going to market a toll road from word of mouth.  The GPS eliminated that as who needs to be informed when you can enter an address in your phone or GPS device.

I work at a toll plaza and believe me, most people are unaware that either toll roads exist or they did not know this one they are on was going to be on the way to wherever they are going.  Plus if it ain't on twiiter or FB, and the news is not from a member of your own clique, then you won't hear it.  Even if its something you see on the way to work, most minds consider you to be just on the road to get to work, and that looking at even homeless man on the side of the road is considered looking too far now.

Our modern world, with access to unlimited information, we are so uninformed.

[lordsutch]

I work at a toll plaza and believe me, most people are unaware that either toll roads exist or they did not know this one they are on was going to be on the way to wherever they are going.  Plus if it ain't on twiiter or FB, and the news is not from a member of your own clique, then you won't hear it.  Even if its something you see on the way to work, most minds consider you to be just on the road to get to work, and that looking at even homeless man on the side of the road is considered looking too far now.

Our modern world, with access to unlimited information, we are so uninformed.

This has got to be the one example where it's on the user and not the technology. Virtually every consumer GPS unit and app has a setting to avoid toll roads. Shunpiking has never been easier.

[J N Winkler]

Roy Turner was the governor the Tulsa to OKC pike was named for.

Yup.  Roy J. Turner, the J. standing for Joseph.

[rte66man]

Roy Turner was the governor the Tulsa to OKC pike was named for.

Yup.  Roy J. Turner, the J. standing for Joseph.

From ODOT:



Gov. Roy Turner cuts the ribbon to officially open the Turner Turnpike.