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Alternatives to the flashing yellow arrow

Started by Pink Jazz, August 14, 2014, 04:31:11 PM

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roadfro

Quote from: jake on September 18, 2014, 02:25:46 PM
If it were me, I would change all the emergency signals to a standard three-head setup with a flashing green orb. It doesn't have a standard meaning yet (within the US), and it would avoid confusion with the amber orb apparently giving the right of way (which isn't true in Washington anyways). This way, the only time you'd see a flashing yellow is at give-way point.

Of course, a standard solid green orb with standard phasing would work. I just want to make sure people don't get used to never seeing it red. I think a different signal type for emergency signals is a good idea.

As a whole, a flashing green orb would mean "you may go but stay alert to crossing traffic". British Columbia uses a flashing green orb to mean 'Ped Crossing' or 'side street has stop signs', and I think a signal with that meaning could come in handy in the US.



Standard steady green would work here. Nevada used to have red/yellow/flashing yellow for emergency signals, but many of these have been converted to standard red/yellow/green.

However, I think you are on to something. I can see making a case for changing red/yellow flash mode (low-volume or night mode) to a red/green flash mode. Flashing green indicates right of way priority, but there may be cross traffic. Then, all flashing yellow would be more reserved for yield situations, such as permitted turns.

With flashing yellow meaning yield, this could allow getting rid of the abysmal "Hawk" ped crossing signals--using a standard 3-section head with flashing yellow displayed during part of the flashing don't walk time (so vehicles can go if peds have cleared early).

Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.


froggie

It was mentioned earlier as an argument against the FYA that flashing yellow generally means you have the right-of-way but proceed with caution.

What got missed is the basics of intersection right-of-way.  Yes, most drivers ed classes teach you that you have the right-of-way on a flashing yellow.  But what they also teach you (or, if not, SHOULD be teaching) is that opposing drivers have right-of-way over you if you are turning left.

Roadrunner75

Quote from: froggie on September 19, 2014, 08:22:17 AM
It was mentioned earlier as an argument against the FYA that flashing yellow generally means you have the right-of-way but proceed with caution.

What got missed is the basics of intersection right-of-way.  Yes, most drivers ed classes teach you that you have the right-of-way on a flashing yellow.  But what they also teach you (or, if not, SHOULD be teaching) is that opposing drivers have right-of-way over you if you are turning left.
Yes but now you've added an arrow to the mix.  If it was a flashing ball, most drivers would understand the above.  The flashing yellow ball means you have the right-of-way in your (straight) direction of travel (use caution, pedestrians have ROW, etc etc).  The arrow is now indicating a specific direction of travel (left), and one could assume that if the ball says I have the ROW to go straight, then the arrow indicates I have the ROW to go left.


Pete from Boston

#128
Quote from: froggie on September 19, 2014, 08:22:17 AM
It was mentioned earlier as an argument against the FYA that flashing yellow generally means you have the right-of-way but proceed with caution.

What got missed is the basics of intersection right-of-way.  Yes, most drivers ed classes teach you that you have the right-of-way on a flashing yellow.  But what they also teach you (or, if not, SHOULD be teaching) is that opposing drivers have right-of-way over you if you are turning left.

They did.  A green light means you have the right of way until you cross someone else's, at which point you cede yours to them until they pass. 

This is also what a full flashing yellow means, with the urging of caution any yellow traffic sign or light connotes.

This is also what no signal means. 

A signal that means the same as no signal, in my opinion, confuses things unnecessarily.  A "just confirming what you should already know" signal is not super helpful, and because it's extraneous, adds driver confusion potential, the opposite of what road devices and signs ought to achieve. 

Quote from: Roadrunner75 on September 19, 2014, 09:48:27 AM
Yes but now you've added an arrow to the mix.  If it was a flashing ball, most drivers would understand the above.  The flashing yellow ball means you have the right-of-way in your (straight) direction of travel (use caution, pedestrians have ROW, etc etc).  The arrow is now indicating a specific direction of travel (left), and one could assume that if the ball says I have the ROW to go straight, then the arrow indicates I have the ROW to go left.

This is how I tend to think about it. 

When people use a word in a way that diverges from its proper meaning, it bugs me when it's said that we should defer to what most people now know that meaning to be, even if it's incorrect as a literal meaning.

However, in the case of a probably very large segment of the driving public considering "flashing yellow anything" to mean "I have the right of way," it might be best to not contradict that, because the technicality that's being missed can get people killed.  (Using "literally" wrong, by comparison, will only get you a punch in the face.)

vdeane

Quote from: cl94 on September 18, 2014, 09:20:21 PM
Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 18, 2014, 07:52:22 PM
Here in Arizona, fire stations use standard red/yellow/green signals rather than the red/solid yellow/flashing yellow setup.

Standard signals are also the standard in New York, but they're always on flashing yellow. I've only once seen one turn to solid yellow and then red, but I was unable to see what happened after the emergency cycle. They might go to green for a short while, but they definitely don't stay green. Signal-controlled railroad crossings here can be steady green or flashing yellow and I know that the flashing yellow ones go green after a train passes. I've never seen a red/yellow/flashing yellow setup here outside of certain T-intersections in New York City where one can only turn right.
There's an emergency signal on NY 21/NY 332 in Canandaigua that is red/yellow/flashing yellow.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.882092,-77.2772203,3a,75y,318.77h,73.63t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1stNYN377iF5mnMZrp03YPHg!2e0
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Mdcastle

In red/yellow flash mode in a normally protected-only setup, don't the left turn arrows flash yellow? Thus the same meaning for a flashing yellow arrow?

jakeroot

Quote from: vdeane on September 19, 2014, 12:43:15 PM
Quote from: cl94 on September 18, 2014, 09:20:21 PM
Quote from: Pink Jazz on September 18, 2014, 07:52:22 PM
Here in Arizona, fire stations use standard red/yellow/green signals rather than the red/solid yellow/flashing yellow setup.

Standard signals are also the standard in New York, but they're always on flashing yellow. I've only once seen one turn to solid yellow and then red, but I was unable to see what happened after the emergency cycle. They might go to green for a short while, but they definitely don't stay green. Signal-controlled railroad crossings here can be steady green or flashing yellow and I know that the flashing yellow ones go green after a train passes. I've never seen a red/yellow/flashing yellow setup here outside of certain T-intersections in New York City where one can only turn right.

There's an emergency signal on NY 21/NY 332 in Canandaigua that is red/yellow/flashing yellow.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.882092,-77.2772203,3a,75y,318.77h,73.63t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1stNYN377iF5mnMZrp03YPHg!2e0

Most emergency signals in Washington are (to my knowledge) red/amber/flashing amber. Take (this) example near Lakewood.

DaBigE

Quote from: Mdcastle on September 19, 2014, 03:17:50 PM
In red/yellow flash mode in a normally protected-only setup, don't the left turn arrows flash yellow? Thus the same meaning for a flashing yellow arrow?

Around Wisconsin, the arrows always flash red. And [not to be snarky, just an observation] unlike Michigan, drivers I've seen do come to a complete stop before making their turn.
"We gotta find this road, it's like Bob's road!" - Rabbit, Twister

tradephoric

The flashing red ball PPLT signal display had the highest level of driver comprehension based on a photographic driver study found in NCHRP 493.  Regardless, the project panel eliminated it from future consideration (from page 51):

QuoteThe flashing red arrow and circular red indications were eliminated by the project panel from future consideration after much discussion with the research team because of the message that these indications presented (i.e., "stop, then proceed if a gap is available"  rather than the more typical PPLT "proceed if a gap is available"  message). Additionally, the flashing permissive red indications may dilute the meaning of other red stop indications.

The stated objective of the report was to "evaluate the safety and effectiveness of different signal displays and phasing for PPLT control" .  Nowhere does the stated objective touch on the legal technicalities involved and one has to question why the flashing red indication was eliminated from future consideration.  The research board provided zero evidence that the flashing permissive red indication would dilute the meaning of other red stop indications.  There is, however, evidence that the flashing red would be a safer PPLT indication than the flashing yellow.  Based on the results of a driving simulator study (found in 2006 NCHRP 493 web-only doc.), drivers experience zero fail-critical responses at flashing red indications vs. 10 fail-critical responses at flashing yellow indications.  According to the study, the results were statistically significant.

Some of us are stuck on the legal issues of using a flashing red indication for a PPLT while others of us are stuck on safety.  It seems we have reached an impasse. 

Roadrunner75

Quote from: tradephoric on September 20, 2014, 01:18:54 PM
The flashing red ball PPLT signal display had the highest level of driver comprehension based on a photographic driver study found in NCHRP 493.  Regardless, the project panel eliminated it from future consideration (from page 51):

QuoteThe flashing red arrow and circular red indications were eliminated by the project panel from future consideration after much discussion with the research team because of the message that these indications presented (i.e., "stop, then proceed if a gap is available"  rather than the more typical PPLT "proceed if a gap is available"  message). Additionally, the flashing permissive red indications may dilute the meaning of other red stop indications.

The stated objective of the report was to "evaluate the safety and effectiveness of different signal displays and phasing for PPLT control" .  Nowhere does the stated objective touch on the legal technicalities involved and one has to question why the flashing red indication was eliminated from future consideration.  The research board provided zero evidence that the flashing permissive red indication would dilute the meaning of other red stop indications.  There is, however, evidence that the flashing red would be a safer PPLT indication than the flashing yellow.  Based on the results of a driving simulator study (found in 2006 NCHRP 493 web-only doc.), drivers experience zero fail-critical responses at flashing red indications vs. 10 fail-critical responses at flashing yellow indications.  According to the study, the results were statistically significant.

Some of us are stuck on the legal issues of using a flashing red indication for a PPLT while others of us are stuck on safety.  It seems we have reached an impasse.
I don't see what's wrong with 'stop, then proceed if a gap is available' in all of these situations.  The flashing red arrow then works just fine.  If an intersection has enough volume to warrant a full left turn signal, then have traffic stop before turning when they otherwise don't have a green arrow. 

cl94

Quote from: tradephoric on September 20, 2014, 01:18:54 PM
The flashing red ball PPLT signal display had the highest level of driver comprehension based on a photographic driver study found in NCHRP 493.  Regardless, the project panel eliminated it from future consideration (from page 51):

QuoteThe flashing red arrow and circular red indications were eliminated by the project panel from future consideration after much discussion with the research team because of the message that these indications presented (i.e., "stop, then proceed if a gap is available"  rather than the more typical PPLT "proceed if a gap is available"  message). Additionally, the flashing permissive red indications may dilute the meaning of other red stop indications.

The stated objective of the report was to "evaluate the safety and effectiveness of different signal displays and phasing for PPLT control" .  Nowhere does the stated objective touch on the legal technicalities involved and one has to question why the flashing red indication was eliminated from future consideration.  The research board provided zero evidence that the flashing permissive red indication would dilute the meaning of other red stop indications.  There is, however, evidence that the flashing red would be a safer PPLT indication than the flashing yellow.  Based on the results of a driving simulator study (found in 2006 NCHRP 493 web-only doc.), drivers experience zero fail-critical responses at flashing red indications vs. 10 fail-critical responses at flashing yellow indications.  According to the study, the results were statistically significant.

Some of us are stuck on the legal issues of using a flashing red indication for a PPLT while others of us are stuck on safety.  It seems we have reached an impasse.

That's because a red indication always means stop. A yellow could function as a caution (while retaining the right of way) or a yield in the case of an FYA. A flashing red as a permissive works because you want people to pay attention to oncoming traffic before turning and understand that oncoming traffic has the right of way.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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roadfro

Quote from: tradephoric on September 20, 2014, 01:18:54 PM
The flashing red ball PPLT signal display had the highest level of driver comprehension based on a photographic driver study found in NCHRP 493.  Regardless, the project panel eliminated it from future consideration (from page 51):

QuoteThe flashing red arrow and circular red indications were eliminated by the project panel from future consideration after much discussion with the research team because of the message that these indications presented (i.e., "stop, then proceed if a gap is available"  rather than the more typical PPLT "proceed if a gap is available"  message). Additionally, the flashing permissive red indications may dilute the meaning of other red stop indications.

The stated objective of the report was to "evaluate the safety and effectiveness of different signal displays and phasing for PPLT control" .  Nowhere does the stated objective touch on the legal technicalities involved and one has to question why the flashing red indication was eliminated from future consideration.  The research board provided zero evidence that the flashing permissive red indication would dilute the meaning of other red stop indications.  There is, however, evidence that the flashing red would be a safer PPLT indication than the flashing yellow.  Based on the results of a driving simulator study (found in 2006 NCHRP 493 web-only doc.), drivers experience zero fail-critical responses at flashing red indications vs. 10 fail-critical responses at flashing yellow indications.  According to the study, the results were statistically significant.

Some of us are stuck on the legal issues of using a flashing red indication for a PPLT while others of us are stuck on safety.  It seems we have reached an impasse.

According to your previous posts, the evidence clearly exists in Michigan. 

This thread has discussed the common custom in Michigan that drivers do not come to a complete stop at a flashing red when making the permitted left turn on a flashing red left turn signal. That very behavior dilutes the meaning of a flashing red signal, which is supposed to invoke a full stop regardless of ball or arrow.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

tradephoric

The optimum word is "other" .  There is no evidence that Michigan drivers who roll through a PPLT flashing red ball are more likely to roll through other red stop indications (IE. non-PPLT red indications).   The only thing diluted is the effectiveness of the project panel's argument.

Pete from Boston

I would expect a "stop, then proceed if a gap is available" to potentially needlessly back up traffic in situations where there's no conflicting traffic for an extended period.  Safety is always the primary requirement, but there are operational considerations as well.

Kacie Jane

Quote from: jake on September 18, 2014, 02:25:46 PM
If it were me, I would change all the emergency signals to a standard three-head setup with a flashing green orb. It doesn't have a standard meaning yet (within the US), and it would avoid confusion with the amber orb apparently giving the right of way (which isn't true in Washington anyways)...

I'm not certain this is a meaningful distinction.  I believe "proceed with caution" is how flashing yellow is interpreted everywhere. It still means you have the right if way, just be extra careful for people either flat out running their flashing red, or stopping but still turning in front of you after misjudging the distance.

Although yes, the use of a flashing amber at otherwise unsignalized crosswalks (that is, unsignalized for the pedestrians), which I've seen both in Washington and elsewhere, does muddle this quite a bit.  (If you see a flashing amber at a crosswalk, and there's a pedestrian in the crosswalk, you don't have the right of way.)

roadfro

Quote from: Kacie Jane on September 21, 2014, 04:00:48 AM
Although yes, the use of a flashing amber at otherwise unsignalized crosswalks (that is, unsignalized for the pedestrians), which I've seen both in Washington and elsewhere, does muddle this quite a bit.  (If you see a flashing amber at a crosswalk, and there's a pedestrian in the crosswalk, you don't have the right of way.)

Are you talking about a flashing yellow beacon? Cause that's a completely different thing.

But if talking about a red/yellow/flashing yellow crosswalk signal, and a pedestrian is in the crosswalk during flashing yellow, then you technically would have the right of way based on how I understand such signals to work (since that would mean the ped is violating the signal).
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

Kacie Jane

Quote from: roadfro on September 22, 2014, 05:20:23 AM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on September 21, 2014, 04:00:48 AM
Although yes, the use of a flashing amber at otherwise unsignalized crosswalks (that is, unsignalized for the pedestrians), which I've seen both in Washington and elsewhere, does muddle this quite a bit.  (If you see a flashing amber at a crosswalk, and there's a pedestrian in the crosswalk, you don't have the right of way.)

Are you talking about a flashing yellow beacon? Cause that's a completely different thing.

Why?  How is a four-way intersection where one street has only a flashing yellow, and the cross street has only a flashing red (in other words, not 3-lens traffic signals, just one or two lenses of the appropriate color), appreciably different from an overhead flashing yellow at a crosswalk?

vdeane

Quote from: Kacie Jane on September 21, 2014, 04:00:48 AM
Although yes, the use of a flashing amber at otherwise unsignalized crosswalks (that is, unsignalized for the pedestrians), which I've seen both in Washington and elsewhere, does muddle this quite a bit.  (If you see a flashing amber at a crosswalk, and there's a pedestrian in the crosswalk, you don't have the right of way.)
If there's a pedestrian in a crosswalk, I'm pretty sure the law says you don't have the right of way regardless of what the signal says, so no conflict there.  The yellow serves to make people look at the crosswalk to see if a pedestrian is there rather than just blowing through, and many areas will have "stop/yield to pedestrians" signs too.

The city of Canandaigua actually has a couple crosswalks on NY 332 that have push buttons that activate square yellow flashers on the bottom of the "crosswalk ahead" signs.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Kacie Jane

Quote from: vdeane on September 22, 2014, 12:59:19 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on September 21, 2014, 04:00:48 AM
Although yes, the use of a flashing amber at otherwise unsignalized crosswalks (that is, unsignalized for the pedestrians), which I've seen both in Washington and elsewhere, does muddle this quite a bit.  (If you see a flashing amber at a crosswalk, and there's a pedestrian in the crosswalk, you don't have the right of way.)
If there's a pedestrian in a crosswalk, I'm pretty sure the law says you don't have the right of way regardless of what the signal says, so no conflict there.

Even if your signal is green, and their signal says don't walk?  (Keep in mind that saying you have the right of way is not the same as saying you have the right to mindlessly run over pedestrians.)

jakeroot

Quote from: Kacie Jane on September 22, 2014, 07:13:45 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 22, 2014, 12:59:19 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on September 21, 2014, 04:00:48 AM
Although yes, the use of a flashing amber at otherwise unsignalized crosswalks (that is, unsignalized for the pedestrians), which I've seen both in Washington and elsewhere, does muddle this quite a bit.  (If you see a flashing amber at a crosswalk, and there's a pedestrian in the crosswalk, you don't have the right of way.)

If there's a pedestrian in a crosswalk, I'm pretty sure the law says you don't have the right of way regardless of what the signal says, so no conflict there.

Even if your signal is green, and their signal says don't walk?  (Keep in mind that saying you have the right of way is not the same as saying you have the right to mindlessly run over pedestrians.)

Washington State Law requires all users of public right-of-way to heed all traffic control devices, including pedestrians.

Great (well) example of this is an incident involving a pedestrian near the South Hill Mall in Puyallup a few months ago. A pedestrian was crossing Meridian (which is 8 lanes through there) against a red hand, and was hit by a car. The driver was devastated, but was never charged. The final investigation concluded that the pedestrian was A) ignoring their control device which said not to cross, and B) was likely insane anyway because crossing there without due care is suicidal; therefore the driver was in no way at fault.

cl94

Quote from: Kacie Jane on September 22, 2014, 07:13:45 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 22, 2014, 12:59:19 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on September 21, 2014, 04:00:48 AM
Although yes, the use of a flashing amber at otherwise unsignalized crosswalks (that is, unsignalized for the pedestrians), which I've seen both in Washington and elsewhere, does muddle this quite a bit.  (If you see a flashing amber at a crosswalk, and there's a pedestrian in the crosswalk, you don't have the right of way.)
If there's a pedestrian in a crosswalk, I'm pretty sure the law says you don't have the right of way regardless of what the signal says, so no conflict there.

Even if your signal is green, and their signal says don't walk?  (Keep in mind that saying you have the right of way is not the same as saying you have the right to mindlessly run over pedestrians.)

Depends on the state. In New York, the pedestrian has the right of way no matter what. They could get a ticket for jaywalking, but a driver would be held responsible for hitting a jaywalking pedestrian, likewise a driver who fails to stop for a pedestrian in the road on their side of the centerline could be fined for failing to yield. Just another one of the crazy laws we have here.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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roadfro

Quote from: Kacie Jane on September 22, 2014, 08:00:06 AM
Quote from: roadfro on September 22, 2014, 05:20:23 AM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on September 21, 2014, 04:00:48 AM
Although yes, the use of a flashing amber at otherwise unsignalized crosswalks (that is, unsignalized for the pedestrians), which I've seen both in Washington and elsewhere, does muddle this quite a bit.  (If you see a flashing amber at a crosswalk, and there's a pedestrian in the crosswalk, you don't have the right of way.)

Are you talking about a flashing yellow beacon? Cause that's a completely different thing.

Why?  How is a four-way intersection where one street has only a flashing yellow, and the cross street has only a flashing red (in other words, not 3-lens traffic signals, just one or two lenses of the appropriate color), appreciably different from an overhead flashing yellow at a crosswalk?

Per the MUTCD, these are completely different types of beacons: "intersection control" beacon versus "warning beacon". I guess it really depends on the context and operation.

A flashing yellow beacon on a pedestrian crossing (with pedestrian crossing sign) doesn't translate the same to me as a flashing yellow beacon over the center of an intersection. Yes, both convey the message that you should proceed with caution. However, several people (not I) would interpret the intersection beacon as indicating you have the right of way, while that is not necessarily the case for the warning beacon at a pedestrian crossing (especially if that beacon is pedestrian activated).

I've never seen intersection control beacons at an intersection that had different colors in different directions. And really, this would be a 2-way stop...and I don't see a reason for an overhead yellow beacon on the main road for such a case (but clearly there is some historical need as this is an allowed application in the MUTCD).
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

Pete from Boston

Flashing yellow in the perpendicular direction to flashing red is pretty much the rule at intersections here that have flashing red at a two-way stop, as you put it.  So much so that it's surprising to me that it isn't the case everywhere. 

roadfro

^ Clarifying that not talking about a signalized intersection, but just plain beacons over a stop-controlled intersection.

Out in Nevada, you just don't see a whole lot of beacons over intersections period. The few I have seen are all-way stops with red beacons in all directions. (And many of these have been switched to using a solar-powered beacon mounted on top of the stop sign, instead of an overhead intersection beacon.)
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

cl94

Quote from: roadfro on September 23, 2014, 08:31:46 PM
^ Clarifying that not talking about a signalized intersection, but just plain beacons over a stop-controlled intersection.

Out in Nevada, you just don't see a whole lot of beacons over intersections period. The few I have seen are all-way stops with red beacons in all directions. (And many of these have been switched to using a solar-powered beacon mounted on top of the stop sign, instead of an overhead intersection beacon.)

NYSDOT seems to be adopting the solar-powered stop sign beacons, at least in Regions 4 and 5. The newest section of the US 219 expressway has them at its two exits in R5 and NY 77 has them at US 20A in R4. In each of these occasions, they are facing an expressway ramp or a high-speed road with no traffic interruptions for several miles approaching the intersection.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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