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New York State Thruway

Started by Zeffy, September 22, 2014, 12:00:32 AM

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kalvado

Quote from: Brandon on August 22, 2017, 09:38:36 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 22, 2017, 08:27:38 PM
I'm surprised we haven't seen anything on the Yonkers, Spring Valley, and New Rochelle barriers yet.  I would have thought they would have gone first before Tonawanda and Niagara (the official barrier names for the Grand Island bridges), given that downstate is already getting used to AET.  Especially Spring Valley, which I would think would just be a software change.

The Erie ticket system wouldn't be hard to convert either.  The mainline - THAT will be interesting!

I'll be more impressed when they're finally forced to follow proper exit numbering with I-90 and I-87.  Distance-based exit numbering.
They are holding on so that they can go directly to km based numbers as would be required some day...


Brandon

Quote from: kalvado on August 23, 2017, 07:41:38 AM
Quote from: Brandon on August 22, 2017, 09:38:36 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 22, 2017, 08:27:38 PM
I'm surprised we haven't seen anything on the Yonkers, Spring Valley, and New Rochelle barriers yet.  I would have thought they would have gone first before Tonawanda and Niagara (the official barrier names for the Grand Island bridges), given that downstate is already getting used to AET.  Especially Spring Valley, which I would think would just be a software change.

The Erie ticket system wouldn't be hard to convert either.  The mainline - THAT will be interesting!

I'll be more impressed when they're finally forced to follow proper exit numbering with I-90 and I-87.  Distance-based exit numbering.

They are holding on so that they can go directly to km based numbers as would be required some day...

There's no law, and nothing in the MUTCD that says they cannot have km-based numbers right now.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

Buffaboy

Quote from: thenetwork on August 22, 2017, 09:54:05 PM
I'll throw this out for curiosity:  If the Thruway powers that be go AET on the Grand Island Bridges (and perhaps the Erie Section), would they consider returning to inbound tolls through downtown Buffalo on I-190, seeing that the only thing they would need to do is to is install overhead gantries?  Or is there an agreement that once they took off the inbound tolls, it was guaranteed to be permanent?

Personally, I wouldn't care if they put them back as I use it a lot. That stretch of road could use extra maintenance. If they made it 25¢ or something, would it really be a big deal? I don't know, but as cl94 said politics would prevent that from happening.

I agree that this is throwing a bone, because when you think about it, WNY/Erie Section doesn't need AET. All of those backups at the Williamsville barrier are the result of people not using EZPass as they should. If you look at the Yonkers barrier, they have 4 dedicated EZPass lanes because they know just about everyone that goes through them or commutes uses it. Part of the reason (I think) why that's not actually a thing here is that people are generally entering from the Exit 48/Transit Road a few miles away.
What's not to like about highways and bridges, intersections and interchanges, rails and planes?

My Wikipedia county SVG maps: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Buffaboy

roadman

Quote from: Brandon on August 23, 2017, 07:44:55 AM
There's no law, and nothing in the MUTCD that says they cannot have km-based numbers right now.

We'll see kilometer posts once Congress agrees to abolish the penny.  In other words, it'll never happen.  Especially since the government has tried twice before to force the metric system on the public, and has failed both times.
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

Brandon

Quote from: roadman on August 23, 2017, 11:15:39 AM
Quote from: Brandon on August 23, 2017, 07:44:55 AM
There's no law, and nothing in the MUTCD that says they cannot have km-based numbers right now.

We'll see kilometer posts once Congress agrees to abolish the penny.  In other words, it'll never happen.  Especially since the government has tried twice before to force the metric system on the public, and has failed both times.

I'd say that signing highways is up to the states themselves.  A perfect example is how I-19 was signed for many years.  The NYS Thruway could sign everything in SI tomorrow if they so chose.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

kalvado

Quote from: roadman on August 23, 2017, 11:15:39 AM
We'll see kilometer posts once Congress agrees to abolish the penny.  In other words, it'll never happen.
Here is how this should be done: Trump has to propose a law which would keep penny forever. Once everyone is furious over such an idea, abolishing penny would become natural next step.

kalvado

Quote from: Brandon on August 23, 2017, 11:20:31 AM
Quote from: roadman on August 23, 2017, 11:15:39 AM
Quote from: Brandon on August 23, 2017, 07:44:55 AM
There's no law, and nothing in the MUTCD that says they cannot have km-based numbers right now.

We'll see kilometer posts once Congress agrees to abolish the penny.  In other words, it'll never happen.  Especially since the government has tried twice before to force the metric system on the public, and has failed both times.

I'd say that signing highways is up to the states themselves.  A perfect example is how I-19 was signed for many years.  The NYS Thruway could sign everything in SI tomorrow if they so chose.
And they choose to keep it sequential. Any problems with that?

Brandon

Quote from: kalvado on August 23, 2017, 11:38:27 AM
Quote from: roadman on August 23, 2017, 11:15:39 AM
We'll see kilometer posts once Congress agrees to abolish the penny.  In other words, it'll never happen.

Here is how this should be done: Trump has to propose a law which would keep penny forever. Once everyone is furious over such an idea, abolishing penny would become natural next step.

Good luck getting the Illinois delegation to go along with abolishing the penny.  That's a bipartisan issue for them.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

SignBridge

I agree with Roadman. I don't think we will ever see a complete conversion to metric in the USA. It would just be too big of a change for a lot of people. But, on the other hand I'm often wrong about stuff like this (LOL) and many professions already use metric measurements. That includes car manufacturers and the pharmaceutical/medical profession to name a few.........

cpzilliacus

Quote from: SignBridge on August 23, 2017, 08:32:55 PM
I agree with Roadman. I don't think we will ever see a complete conversion to metric in the USA. It would just be too big of a change for a lot of people. But, on the other hand I'm often wrong about stuff like this (LOL) and many professions already use metric measurements. That includes car manufacturers and the pharmaceutical/medical profession to name a few.........

Metric is the rule at the medical doctors that see me.  And all or very nearly all medications that require a prescription are in metric units now.   No more fluid ounces and no more grains.

Hard liquor sold in the U.S. is in metric bottles now (750 ml being about the same as a "fifth" of a gallon).
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

dgolub

Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 24, 2017, 12:17:16 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on August 23, 2017, 08:32:55 PM
I agree with Roadman. I don't think we will ever see a complete conversion to metric in the USA. It would just be too big of a change for a lot of people. But, on the other hand I'm often wrong about stuff like this (LOL) and many professions already use metric measurements. That includes car manufacturers and the pharmaceutical/medical profession to name a few.........

Metric is the rule at the medical doctors that see me.  And all or very nearly all medications that require a prescription are in metric units now.   No more fluid ounces and no more grains.

Hard liquor sold in the U.S. is in metric bottles now (750 ml being about the same as a "fifth" of a gallon).

Yeah, but those aren't things where the average person has to have an intuitive feel for them.  The dose of a medication is at most a number to memorize.  (And far too many people just take whatever they're handed by the pharmacist without even concerning themselves with whether or not it's the correct dose, which is a whole separate issue...)  I can things like that continuing to go metric.  I don't see us switching to kilometer or especially degrees Celsius any time soon.

froggie

Quote from: dgolubI don't see us switching to kilometer or especially degrees Celsius any time soon.

We already have with the latter.  You'll never see it on TV or in the broadcast world, but professional meteorology and official weather observations** are done in Celsius instead of Fahrenheit.  Several meteorological calculation formulas, both academic and operational, are actually in Kelvin (same scale as Celsius but with zero equal to "absolute zero").


** For example, here's the latest (as of this post) weather observation from JFK:

KJFK 250151Z 35007KT 10SM SCT090 23/09 A2996 RMK AO2 SLP147 T02280094

Temperature is reported in both the 23/09 group and the T-group at the end.  As you can see, these temperatures are definitely not in Fahrenheit.

Alps

Quote from: froggie on August 24, 2017, 10:12:27 PM
Quote from: dgolubI don't see us switching to kilometer or especially degrees Celsius any time soon.

We already have with the latter.  You'll never see it on TV or in the broadcast world, but professional meteorology and official weather observations** are done in Celsius instead of Fahrenheit.  Several meteorological calculation formulas, both academic and operational, are actually in Kelvin (same scale as Celsius but with zero equal to "absolute zero").


** For example, here's the latest (as of this post) weather observation from JFK:

KJFK 250151Z 35007KT 10SM SCT090 23/09 A2996 RMK AO2 SLP147 T02280094

Temperature is reported in both the 23/09 group and the T-group at the end.  As you can see, these temperatures are definitely not in Fahrenheit.

I can't see anything at all. Maybe you would do well to explain it to us. Is the temperature 22.8, rounding up to 23?

Buffaboy

Well I've been living under a rock. I had no idea downstate toll barriers are all AET now! I thought that was just a Tappan Zee Bridge thing.

I wish NYSTA were more uniform with their AET approach instead of taking piecemeal measures to convert the system. I get that those downstate barriers get more traffic, but they can't leave upstate behind anymore.
What's not to like about highways and bridges, intersections and interchanges, rails and planes?

My Wikipedia county SVG maps: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Buffaboy

kalvado

#1014
Quote from: Alps on August 24, 2017, 10:39:54 PM
Quote from: froggie on August 24, 2017, 10:12:27 PM
Quote from: dgolubI don't see us switching to kilometer or especially degrees Celsius any time soon.

We already have with the latter.  You'll never see it on TV or in the broadcast world, but professional meteorology and official weather observations** are done in Celsius instead of Fahrenheit.  Several meteorological calculation formulas, both academic and operational, are actually in Kelvin (same scale as Celsius but with zero equal to "absolute zero").


** For example, here's the latest (as of this post) weather observation from JFK:

KJFK 250151Z 35007KT 10SM SCT090 23/09 A2996 RMK AO2 SLP147 T02280094

Temperature is reported in both the 23/09 group and the T-group at the end.  As you can see, these temperatures are definitely not in Fahrenheit.

I can't see anything at all. Maybe you would do well to explain it to us. Is the temperature 22.8, rounding up to 23?
This is METAR (Meteorological Aerodrome Report) format. I believe it was adopted when each extra byte of data was a precious thing, and information is compressed as much as possible. You can use one of many online METAR decoders - for example http://heras-gilsanz.com/manuel/METAR-Decoder.html

Line up there parses into
Location: KJFK
Day of month: 25
Time: 01:51 UTC
Wind:  True direction = 350 degrees, Speed: 7 knots
Visibility: 10 Statute Miles
Clouds: Scattered , at 9000 feet above aerodrome level
Temperature: 23 degrees Celsius
Dewpoint: 09 degrees Celsius

QNH: 29.96 inHg


I find it quite funny that this example is actually a mixture of all possible unit. Wind speed is in knots (nautical miles per hour), while visibility is in statue miles. Altimeter setting is in in Hg, but SLP (sea level pressure) is in hPa - all within same line.
There are provisions for different units in format, e.g. in Hg or hPa for pressure, (kilo)meters or statue miles for visibility.

froggie

Quote from: AlpsI can't see anything at all. Maybe you would do well to explain it to us. Is the temperature 22.8, rounding up to 23?

Kalvado covered observation format in general.  To answer this question specifically, the answer is yes.

SignBridge

Why are we arguing about weather report formats on the NY Thruway forum?

Alps

Quote from: Buffaboy on August 26, 2017, 09:13:55 PM
Well I've been living under a rock. I had no idea downstate toll barriers are all AET now! I thought that was just a Tappan Zee Bridge thing.

I wish NYSTA were more uniform with their AET approach instead of taking piecemeal measures to convert the system. I get that those downstate barriers get more traffic, but they can't leave upstate behind anymore.
Not quite. The Tap is AET. They're working on two other barrier tolls. The entire ticketed system is going to follow, but they want to get it right first by having test cases at the few locations outside the system. The other AET bridges are all MTA.

kalvado

Quote from: Alps on August 26, 2017, 09:54:04 PM
Quote from: Buffaboy on August 26, 2017, 09:13:55 PM
Well I've been living under a rock. I had no idea downstate toll barriers are all AET now! I thought that was just a Tappan Zee Bridge thing.

I wish NYSTA were more uniform with their AET approach instead of taking piecemeal measures to convert the system. I get that those downstate barriers get more traffic, but they can't leave upstate behind anymore.
Not quite. The Tap is AET. They're working on two other barrier tolls. The entire ticketed system is going to follow, but they want to get it right first by having test cases at the few locations outside the system. The other AET bridges are all MTA.
How much testing is actually needed here, and what exactly is being tested? It's not that AET is something new, there are AET installations in NYC (MTA) and on MassPike. I assume Thruway is going to have basically same set of equipment installed in basically same way. Of course, mainline Thruway is a huge install which would take a lot of money - but not something fundamentally new for AET.

cl94

Quote from: Alps on August 26, 2017, 09:54:04 PM
Quote from: Buffaboy on August 26, 2017, 09:13:55 PM
Well I've been living under a rock. I had no idea downstate toll barriers are all AET now! I thought that was just a Tappan Zee Bridge thing.

I wish NYSTA were more uniform with their AET approach instead of taking piecemeal measures to convert the system. I get that those downstate barriers get more traffic, but they can't leave upstate behind anymore.
Not quite. The Tap is AET. They're working on two other barrier tolls. The entire ticketed system is going to follow, but they want to get it right first by having test cases at the few locations outside the system. The other AET bridges are all MTA.

All of the barrier tolls will come before any of the ticket system. Grand Island is coming after Yonkers and New Rochelle get up and running.

Quote from: kalvado on August 26, 2017, 10:12:55 PM
How much testing is actually needed here, and what exactly is being tested? It's not that AET is something new, there are AET installations in NYC (MTA) and on MassPike. I assume Thruway is going to have basically same set of equipment installed in basically same way. Of course, mainline Thruway is a huge install which would take a lot of money - but not something fundamentally new for AET.

The main ticket system would be the largest converted to AET to date if done now. And I don't think NYSTA has even determined how it's being done (barrier tolls like MA or keeping a virtual ticket system).
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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Alps

Quote from: cl94 on August 26, 2017, 10:17:42 PM
Quote from: Alps on August 26, 2017, 09:54:04 PM
Quote from: Buffaboy on August 26, 2017, 09:13:55 PM
Well I've been living under a rock. I had no idea downstate toll barriers are all AET now! I thought that was just a Tappan Zee Bridge thing.

I wish NYSTA were more uniform with their AET approach instead of taking piecemeal measures to convert the system. I get that those downstate barriers get more traffic, but they can't leave upstate behind anymore.
Not quite. The Tap is AET. They're working on two other barrier tolls. The entire ticketed system is going to follow, but they want to get it right first by having test cases at the few locations outside the system. The other AET bridges are all MTA.

Quote from: kalvado on August 26, 2017, 10:12:55 PM
How much testing is actually needed here, and what exactly is being tested? It's not that AET is something new, there are AET installations in NYC (MTA) and on MassPike. I assume Thruway is going to have basically same set of equipment installed in basically same way. Of course, mainline Thruway is a huge install which would take a lot of money - but not something fundamentally new for AET.

The main ticket system would be the largest converted to AET to date if done now. And I don't think NYSTA has even determined how it's being done (barrier tolls like MA or keeping a virtual ticket system).
It's a matter of their internal procedures. Each agency is going to face its own challenges in converting its structure to AET. Challenges such as accounting for lost revenue (missed plate reads), going after photo tolls who don't pay, interstate agreements (which only used to matter for non-EZPass cars in the EZPass lanes), their own internal structure for dealing with new methods of tolling and the AET processors, external structure for dealing with the public, potential changes to fare structure... So yeah, they're going to want to test it small scale first, see what they've got right and what they need to adjust, before they roll it out to everyone.

kalvado

Quote from: cl94 on August 26, 2017, 10:17:42 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 26, 2017, 10:12:55 PM
How much testing is actually needed here, and what exactly is being tested? It's not that AET is something new, there are AET installations in NYC (MTA) and on MassPike. I assume Thruway is going to have basically same set of equipment installed in basically same way. Of course, mainline Thruway is a huge install which would take a lot of money - but not something fundamentally new for AET.

The main ticket system would be the largest converted to AET to date if done now. And I don't think NYSTA has even determined how it's being done (barrier tolls like MA or keeping a virtual ticket system).
Small scale individual barrier tests aren't going to help with project scaling. As for billing method... I-88 is going to be a headache. But again, that is something agency need to decide, tests are not going to help much. If they want to collect read fail statistics.. Again, I suspect that can be obtained from other agencies or equipment vendor.
I can see why they don't want to invest into entire system with almost 100 billing locations while dealing with... khm... Cuomo The First bridge. But that has nothing to do with testing.

SignBridge

I think Alps summed it up pretty well. Each agency will have to work out the glitches in their own way. Makes sense to do it one step at a time, and not rush into it large scale and then be overwhelmed by all the resulting glitches. Especially as there is no major urgency in getting this done.

vdeane

Quote from: kalvado on August 26, 2017, 10:27:03 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 26, 2017, 10:17:42 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 26, 2017, 10:12:55 PM
How much testing is actually needed here, and what exactly is being tested? It's not that AET is something new, there are AET installations in NYC (MTA) and on MassPike. I assume Thruway is going to have basically same set of equipment installed in basically same way. Of course, mainline Thruway is a huge install which would take a lot of money - but not something fundamentally new for AET.

The main ticket system would be the largest converted to AET to date if done now. And I don't think NYSTA has even determined how it's being done (barrier tolls like MA or keeping a virtual ticket system).
Small scale individual barrier tests aren't going to help with project scaling. As for billing method... I-88 is going to be a headache. But again, that is something agency need to decide, tests are not going to help much. If they want to collect read fail statistics.. Again, I suspect that can be obtained from other agencies or equipment vendor.
I can see why they don't want to invest into entire system with almost 100 billing locations while dealing with... khm... Cuomo The First bridge. But that has nothing to do with testing.
Stick a gantry inside exit 25A and make 24-25 free (or put gantries on the ramps to/from the east).

Keep in mind that products like this aren't like buying a Windows PC.  It's not just "buy mass produced AET system from WalMart, unbox, configure a few settings with a wizard, place by side of road".  It's more like "hire consultant, buy hardware, have consultant customize software specifically for your specifications, test to make sure it works, deploy across system".

Quote from: cl94 on August 26, 2017, 10:17:42 PM
Quote from: Alps on August 26, 2017, 09:54:04 PM
Quote from: Buffaboy on August 26, 2017, 09:13:55 PM
Well I've been living under a rock. I had no idea downstate toll barriers are all AET now! I thought that was just a Tappan Zee Bridge thing.

I wish NYSTA were more uniform with their AET approach instead of taking piecemeal measures to convert the system. I get that those downstate barriers get more traffic, but they can't leave upstate behind anymore.
Not quite. The Tap is AET. They're working on two other barrier tolls. The entire ticketed system is going to follow, but they want to get it right first by having test cases at the few locations outside the system. The other AET bridges are all MTA.

All of the barrier tolls will come before any of the ticket system. Grand Island is coming after Yonkers and New Rochelle get up and running.

Quote from: kalvado on August 26, 2017, 10:12:55 PM
How much testing is actually needed here, and what exactly is being tested? It's not that AET is something new, there are AET installations in NYC (MTA) and on MassPike. I assume Thruway is going to have basically same set of equipment installed in basically same way. Of course, mainline Thruway is a huge install which would take a lot of money - but not something fundamentally new for AET.

The main ticket system would be the largest converted to AET to date if done now. And I don't think NYSTA has even determined how it's being done (barrier tolls like MA or keeping a virtual ticket system).
I think one of the barriers is Harriman, which is converting to AET as part of the exit 131 project.  I would suspect Yonkers is the other, since it was mentioned before New Rochelle as a candidate for conversion.

From what I've read here, the MassPike already bills as a virtual ticket system even though the hardware is set up as barriers.  I would consider that to be a virtual ticket system, and a system similar to 407's to still be a "true" ticket system, even if there is no physical ticket.  I suppose it's a question of what's considered more important - what citizens see when they're billed, or how the far schedule is programmed into the backend (since true ticket systems have individual fare schedules for each exit, it's possible to have two separate totals for the same trip depending on whether you get off and back on again at an intermediate exit or just drive straight through, which is impossible in a barrier system).
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

cl94

No urgency and they want to do it at a speed where tolltakers are eliminated through retirement instead of massive layoffs or reassignments. Do it slowly and people can be moved to nearby barriers or office jobs because people aren't hired to replace those that retired and, by the time it's fully AET, there are few enough tolltakers that people can be thrown in offices or service areas. Do it all at once and you have a couple hundred people without a job.

MassPike is billed as a ticket system, but set up as a barrier system. No word as to whether NYSTA will place gantries at exits or between them (or a combination thereof). I fully expect 23-26 and 34A-39 to become free once AET goes into operation because politics, plus 49/56 added to the Buffalo free zone. But we still have quite a bit of time until the main ticket system gets converted and NYSTA is still performing interim toll plaza upgrades.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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