Designated, but not Signed

[nwi_navigator_1181]

Good day to you all.

On my way back from Grand Rapids last week, I have been noticing distance signs that regularly mention Chicago on I-196, starting from M-6 all the way to the end. However, not once is Chicago signed as a control city for West/South I-196, with Holland and Benton Harbor getting the mentions.

It all makes sense, don't get me wrong. My question to the group is this: does an instance like this occur anywhere else?

Thank you in advance for your responses.

[GaryV]

I've often seen smaller non-control cities listed on signs, when they are closer than the control city.  For example, if a sign listed both South Haven and Benton Harbor as you left Holland.  But I don't think that's what you're asking.

Chicago is often mentioned on I-94 westbound as well.  And Detroit distance is listed quite far north on I-75, north of both Flint and Saginaw.

Then there's the few cross-country distances listed at signs where the route begins, but I recall that happening more for US routes than Interstates.

[NE2]

Just because it's on a mileage sign, that doesn't make it a control city.
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part2/part2e.htm#section2E13

Control city legends should be used in the following situations along a freeway:
On the bottom line of post-interchange distance signs.

(bolding added)

[nwi_navigator_1181]

NE2 got the essence of the thread.

I'm looking for instances when the bottom line of the post-interchange distance sign (a major city that can serve as a control city...in my example, Chicago) is NOT mentioned as a control city on the Interstate from where the sign was read, for whatever reason (in the case of my example, closer cities on the route). I know it's confusing, so I hope this clears it up.

[NE2]

mentioned as a control city on the Interstate from where the sign was read

What do you mean by this?

[nwi_navigator_1181]

mentioned as a control city on the Interstate from where the sign was read

What do you mean by this?

Once you're south(west) of the Grand Rapids Bypass (M-6) on I-196, the first distance sign south of that interchange mentions Chicago (~170 miles from that point). No guidance sign from M-6 to the terminus at I-94 has Chicago as a control city for I-196, though all city distance signs have Chicago at the bottom.

Chicago is always mentioned on distance signs on I-196, though it is NOT a designated control city for I-196 (the highway from which I read these signs). I hope that makes sense.

[NE2]

Chicago is a designated control city for I-196: http://web.archive.org/web/20140821161155/http://home.roadrunner.com/~pwolf/controlcities.html
That's why it's on the bottom line of distance signs.

[WNYroadgeek]

Not sure if it counts, but many a Thruway distance sign includes New York, despite it not being signed as a control city west of Albany.

[Brandon]

Chicago is a designated control city for I-196: http://web.archive.org/web/20140821161155/http://home.roadrunner.com/~pwolf/controlcities.html
That's why it's on the bottom line of distance signs.

However, "Chicago" is not used on the signs as a control city for I-196.

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=42.301968,-86.31016&spn=0.006785,0.009645&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=42.302039,-86.31081&panoid=UNZT8rzkEFqqBnrCrCufng&cbp=12,232.03,,2,2.08

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=42.403495,-86.255025&spn=0.006774,0.009645&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=42.403462,-86.254836&panoid=GQvsY2U24L1e3Uv-6GXpVA&cbp=12,231.47,,1,2

[NE2]

Chicago is a designated control city for I-196: http://web.archive.org/web/20140821161155/http://home.roadrunner.com/~pwolf/controlcities.html
That's why it's on the bottom line of distance signs.

However, "Chicago" is not used on the signs as a control city for I-196.

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=42.301968,-86.31016&spn=0.006785,0.009645&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=42.302039,-86.31081&panoid=UNZT8rzkEFqqBnrCrCufng&cbp=12,232.03,,2,2.08

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=42.403495,-86.255025&spn=0.006774,0.009645&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=42.403462,-86.254836&panoid=GQvsY2U24L1e3Uv-6GXpVA&cbp=12,231.47,,1,2

Those are "major destinations", not control cities. There is little difference except that control cities are supposed to be on the bottom line of distance signs, with major destinations on the middle line: http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part2/part2d.htm#section2D41 http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part2/part2e.htm#section2E39 The MUTCD does say that control cities should be used on "directional signs on intersecting routes", but it's not mentioned in the section on these signs, only in the section on control cities.

So the actual question is: where do directional signs use a major destination rather than a control city?

[GaryV]

Chicago is a designated control city for I-196: http://web.archive.org/web/20140821161155/http://home.roadrunner.com/~pwolf/controlcities.html
That's why it's on the bottom line of distance signs.

As it is for I-94, so my mistake in an earlier post above.

But that doesn't change the fact that there are distance signs for Detroit on I-75 north of Saginaw and Flint.

Also, question, is the control city supposed to be included on ALL mileage signs?  Because I'm not sure that Chicago appears on all signs across MI on I-94.  I can't think of specific examples, just going by recollection (and we know that can be faulty).

[pianocello]

Toledo is used on the bottom line for distance signs on EB I-80 as far west as the southwest suburbs of Chicago (Between US-45 and I-355, to be precise). Since the early 2000s, Toledo has been dropped as a control city in favor of Indiana. In northwest Indiana, "Ohio" is the control city.


iPhone

[nwi_navigator_1181]

Toledo is used on the bottom line for distance signs on EB I-80 as far west as the southwest suburbs of Chicago (Between US-45 and I-355, to be precise). Since the early 2000s, Toledo has been dropped as a control city in favor of Indiana. In northwest Indiana, "Ohio" is the control city.


iPhone

Good one. I had that one in the back of my mind, but you nailed it.

If I could, I would rename this thread "Designated but not Signed" (which I did). While Chicago is designated to I-196 (per MUTCD), it is not signed to I-196, which is basically what I was looking for all along.

[J N Winkler]

However, "Chicago" is not used on the signs as a control city for I-196.

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=42.301968,-86.31016&spn=0.006785,0.009645&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=42.302039,-86.31081&panoid=UNZT8rzkEFqqBnrCrCufng&cbp=12,232.03,,2,2.08

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=42.403495,-86.255025&spn=0.006774,0.009645&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=42.403462,-86.254836&panoid=GQvsY2U24L1e3Uv-6GXpVA&cbp=12,231.47,,1,2

These are ramp signs.  Is this a context where control cities must be used?

[NE2]

These are ramp signs.  Is this a context where control cities must be used?

See my links - the MUTCD says they "should" be used, but only in the section on control cities, not in the section on these signs.

[J N Winkler]

These are ramp signs.  Is this a context where control cities must be used?

See my links - the MUTCD says they "should" be used, but only in the section on control cities, not in the section on these signs.

I think these sections are capable of divergent interpretations when read in conjunction, since conventional road for purposes of placing Entrance Direction signs (the MUTCD term) as laid out in § 2D.45 does not have to mean the same as route in § 2E.13.

But in this particular case, I think the control cities list is just out of date.  Wolf's page has a last-updated timestamp in 2004--10 years ago now.  Michigan DOT replaced a large number of signs (probably the majority) on I-196 somewhat more recently than that, and has been very consistent about using "Benton Harbor" instead of "Chicago" in the signing plans I have collected from them since full online availability began in mid-2006.

[bassoon1986]

Eastbound I-20 from Dallas. Bottom line on mileage signs shows Shreveport, pullthrough signs in Dallas say Shreveport, but many of the ramp signs say Longview.

[roadman65]

Go to North Carolina and you will be more confused.  On I-40 for the Northbound I-95 exit you have Rocky Mount/ Smithfield, yet the first mileage sign does not include Rocky Mount, but already Richmond, VA and uses Wilson as well as Smithfield.  In this case Richmond is like Chicago, but the control city signed from I-40  is Rocky Mount (and I believe that is FHWA pick for Control City for that region of NC) yet not Richmond is not used until US 64 (future I-595) and only at two locations north of their as GSV shows Roanoke Rapids as ramp signage north of Gold Rock at Exit 145.