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Ring road tunnel for London

Started by rschen7754, May 12, 2014, 10:30:42 PM

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realjd

Never going to happen, but it's an interesting academic exercise.

jakeroot

This plan is just about as mental as Scotland's plan to switch to the right-hand side of the road. I love any new roads...but in London?? No way. This has to be bullshit.

Chris

It could spur the debate about the problems with road traffic in London. An average trip within M25 takes twice the time as a similar distance trip in Paris.

I was checking some Google Map routes at 10 p.m. last night (GMT) and even at that hour the average speed within London does not reach 20 mph. The M25 is too far out for most trips within it, especially if your origin and/or destination is not close to one of the motorway spurs.

For example, a current (as of 8:49 a.m. local time) trip from Croydon to Central London takes 1 hour and 9 minutes. It's under 12 miles! Another example: Wembley - Romford (using A406) is 25 miles and takes 1 hour and 13 minutes (1h40m by transit). You see the benefit of a controlled-access highway, even though the average speed is still low.

realjd

Quote from: jake on May 14, 2014, 02:49:14 AM
This plan is just about as mental as Scotland's plan to switch to the right-hand side of the road. I love any new roads...but in London?? No way. This has to be bullshit.

Scotland isn't actually planning on switching to the right. The Guardian ran that as an April fools joke article.

english si

Quote from: realjd on May 12, 2014, 11:41:41 PMNever going to happen, but it's an interesting academic exercise.
Some unlucky people got asked by TfL to do a study into what's needed to sort out London's road problems, which include maintenance, severance and congestion. It wasn't meant to be academic.

Looking at the small city of Worcester's plans for an urban motorway network, almost, but not quite, demolishing the historic cathedral with Truvelo (who found them) the other week at the SABRE AGM, someone said that the 60s plans were possibly deliberately crazily over the top so that, watered down, people would accept them as they weren't the expensive destructive original plans, but they still made a big difference. This might be that, though - other than the price tag - this is quite clearly not OTT.

One big problem is creating a through route from the A40 to the A12 - those radials are busy enough as it is. It would be worse with an A4 tunnel to Earls Court, and a tunnel under Wandsworth linking the A3 into Battersea. I'd imagine a tolling structure to strongly discourage such journeys
Quote from: jake on May 14, 2014, 02:49:14 AMI love any new roads...but in London?? No way. This has to be bullshit.
It's from TfL.

Sure, the only new road built in London in the last 20 years was the Coulsden Relief Road (and some minor upgrades of the A13). But that complete lack of improvement is why it is much more likely that new roads will be built. Certainly 60s viaducts (Hammersmith, Westway, possibly the M4 and the North Circular at Brent Cross/Staples Corner) will be replaced with tunnels. Tower Bridge being bypassed by the Bricklayers Arms - Wapping section of this ring is also likely.

With this tunnelled ring road scheme, I imagine that at least £1bn of the price tag will be doing stuff to make the Inner Ring Road less of a barrier.

Zeffy

Wait, I'm not too familiar with British roadways yet, so this plan is asking for a 22 mile beltway (that's a ring road, right?) entirely underground?

That sounds insane.
Life would be boring if we didn't take an offramp every once in a while

A weird combination of a weather geek, roadgeek, car enthusiast and furry mixed with many anxiety related disorders

jakeroot

Quote from: realjd on May 14, 2014, 06:12:05 AM
Quote from: jake on May 14, 2014, 02:49:14 AM
This plan is just about as mental as Scotland's plan to switch to the right-hand side of the road. I love any new roads...but in London?? No way. This has to be bullshit.

Scotland isn't actually planning on switching to the right. The Guardian ran that as an April fools joke article.


english si

14km northern tunnel (9-3 on the map), 17km southern tunnel (Holland Park Roundabout to north of 4 on the map, via Battersea and Bricklayers Arms), short surface bit on the West Cross Route, that makes 19.2 miles, not 22!

OK it's 20 miles if you bury the West Cross Route too, but there's still something missing with that figure!

If I add in the longest Hammersmith bypass tunnel (Earls Court to Hogarth) that gives you the three miles.

Putting it anywhere other than underground sounds insane! Not building it and leaving the Marylebone Road, Euston Road, Tower Bridge, etc all horrible to be near is also not that clever.

The A86 duplex tunnel in Paris is about 10 miles long and Paris didn't blink at such a tunnel being built.

Bickendan

Whereas, if such a tunnel were proposed here in the States, it'd go nowhere fast. :(

jakeroot

#10
english si, I understand the proposal was put forward by TfL, and as such, would not be able to achieve motorway status (what a stupid oversight). Could they perhaps change the abilities of TfL to allow this new ring road to be a motorway? Or is that too much power given to one entity? Not sure how Socialist England is.

Also, could they finish the M1 past Staples Corner and connect it to the new ring road?.

Maybe while they are at it, they could just go ahead and finish the M23 as originally planned. I visited England a few weeks ago and this is what I was presented with upon reaching the A23 from Gatwick Airport:


english si

Quote from: jake on May 15, 2014, 02:21:53 AM
english si, I understand the proposal was put forward by TfL, and as such, would not be able to achieve motorway status (what a stupid oversight). Could they perhaps change the abilities of TfL to allow this new ring road to be a motorway?
TfL can deal with motorways, the whole thing was bad wording that only related to the handover (something like "The GLA should take over all non-motorway trunk roads in Greater London"*). Plus the motorways that were downgraded in 2000 were isolated stretches of motorway (and it wasn't as if traffic was using them in preference to local routes purely as it was blue on maps and signs, rather than green). Every other UK local governmental body can maintain motorways: Lancashire, Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool, Newcastle and Portsmouth certainly do!

And there's no reason why this should be motorway, really. You don't want to attract traffic through London, only distribute traffic heading to the centre around it in ways that aren't Park Lane, Tower Bridge, Marylebone Road, etc. I doubt the speed limit will be higher than 40mph (Limehouse Link Tunnel is 30mph IIRC). There's also other ways of banning peds, cyclists, etc.

*The original act creating TfL doesn't block any road, except those that are trunk roads, can be a TfL road (rather than a borough road).
QuoteAlso, could they finish the M1 past Staples Corner and connect it to the new ring road?.

Maybe while they are at it, they could just go ahead and finish the M23 as originally planned. I visited England a few weeks ago and this is what I was presented with upon reaching the A23 from Gatwick Airport:
neither are likely, though I can't imagine that the full proposals of which this part of will not include some way of making vehicular access from the south easier (or at least put underground through Streatham, Norbury, Thornton Heath, etc.

The M23 is getting no further in than J7 - just north of there there would have been a massive viaduct, and all it would do is move the bottleneck along.

The M1 is fine ending where it does, though could possibly do with a better junction 4 (and an actual junction 3) to take traffic off the A1 and A41 through Mill Hill. The A5 and A41 really aren't too bad south of Brent Cross.

cpzilliacus

Other places in the EU have built (or are building) similar roads below-grade, including Madrid, Stockholm and (as mentioned above) Paris. 

If the new roads are priced correctly, they will move a lot of traffic (because they will not succumb to congestion which badly reduces capacity), and the resulting revenue should be able to pay for maintenance and operation, and part of the construction cost.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

jakeroot

Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 16, 2014, 04:31:39 PM
Other places in the EU have built (or are building) similar roads below-grade, including Madrid, Stockholm and (as mentioned above) Paris. 

If the new roads are priced correctly, they will move a lot of traffic (because they will not succumb to congestion which badly reduces capacity), and the resulting revenue should be able to pay for maintenance and operation, and part of the construction cost.

When I was proposing an alternative to I-5 in the fictional highways thread, I considered going through a number of tunnels east of Seattle. The tunneling methods that are prevalent in Europe inspired that concept.

This whole idea of a below-grade ring road around London sounds like the next generation of engineering. When complete, I think it's up there with the Bering Strait tunnel as one of the biggest engineering feats of all time. Paris' tunnel is pretty cool, but it's a measly 10 miles. Oh, and they're French, so immediate -10 points.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: jake on May 16, 2014, 04:38:01 PM
When I was proposing an alternative to I-5 in the fictional highways thread, I considered going through a number of tunnels east of Seattle. The tunneling methods that are prevalent in Europe inspired that concept.

In part it depends on what has to be tunneled through.  Solid rock can be easier for a TBM to work with than mud and clay.

Quote from: jake on May 16, 2014, 04:38:01 PM
This whole idea of a below-grade ring road around London sounds like the next generation of engineering. When complete, I think it's up there with the Bering Strait tunnel as one of the biggest engineering feats of all time.

Long segments of underground motorway are open in Madrid, and a shorter (but extremely busy) section is open in Stockholm.

Quote from: jake on May 16, 2014, 04:38:01 PM
Paris' tunnel is pretty cool, but it's a measly 10 miles. Oh, and they're French, so immediate -10 points.

No comment.  ;-)

But the French also built the Millau Viaduct - a project like that in (much of) the United States would be greeted with comments like "it can't be built" and "it will 'induce' demand" [for highway capacity] by groups like the Sierra Club.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

jakeroot

Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 16, 2014, 04:56:44 PM
Quote from: jake on May 16, 2014, 04:38:01 PM
Paris' tunnel is pretty cool, but it's a measly 10 miles. Oh, and they're French, so immediate -10 points.

No comment.  ;-)

But the French also built the Millau Viaduct - a project like that in (much of) the United States would be greeted with comments like "it can't be built" and "it will 'induce' demand" [for highway capacity] by groups like the Sierra Club.

That's true. The French have one of my favorite highway networks in the world, next to Germany. It's just...you know...France.

Brandon

Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 16, 2014, 04:56:44 PM
But the French also built the Millau Viaduct - a project like that in (much of) the United States would be greeted with comments like "it can't be built" and "it will 'induce' demand" [for highway capacity] by groups like the Sierra Club.

Europe has similar, and even more militant groups.  We managed, locally, to tell the Sierra Club to find a short pier to take a long walk off when we got I-355 completed through Will County.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

jakeroot

Quote from: Brandon on May 16, 2014, 05:40:44 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 16, 2014, 04:56:44 PM
But the French also built the Millau Viaduct - a project like that in (much of) the United States would be greeted with comments like "it can't be built" and "it will 'induce' demand" [for highway capacity] by groups like the Sierra Club.

Europe has similar, and even more militant groups.  We managed, locally, to tell the Sierra Club to find a short pier to take a long walk off when we got I-355 completed through Will County.

The Sierra Club:




realjd

Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 16, 2014, 04:31:39 PM
Other places in the EU have built (or are building) similar roads below-grade, including Madrid, Stockholm and (as mentioned above) Paris. 

If the new roads are priced correctly, they will move a lot of traffic (because they will not succumb to congestion which badly reduces capacity), and the resulting revenue should be able to pay for maintenance and operation, and part of the construction cost.

Or it could end up a traffic jammed mess like the M5 freeway tunnel in Sydney, or any of the tunnels in the Hampton Roads area that jam up simply because tunnels are scary and people slam on their brakes.


cpzilliacus

Quote from: realjd on May 16, 2014, 09:19:38 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 16, 2014, 04:31:39 PM
Other places in the EU have built (or are building) similar roads below-grade, including Madrid, Stockholm and (as mentioned above) Paris. 

If the new roads are priced correctly, they will move a lot of traffic (because they will not succumb to congestion which badly reduces capacity), and the resulting revenue should be able to pay for maintenance and operation, and part of the construction cost.

Or it could end up a traffic jammed mess like the M5 freeway tunnel in Sydney, or any of the tunnels in the Hampton Roads area that jam up simply because tunnels are scary and people slam on their brakes.

Based on my own (informal) observations while driving through tunnels, mostly in my home state of Maryland, but also in the District of Columbia and Virginia, tunnels are generally scary to people that do not drive through them regularly, especially tunnels that a driver from out of town is not expecting. 

But the regulars seem to do just fine driving through them.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

jakeroot

Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 16, 2014, 11:24:08 PM
Quote from: realjd on May 16, 2014, 09:19:38 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 16, 2014, 04:31:39 PM
Other places in the EU have built (or are building) similar roads below-grade, including Madrid, Stockholm and (as mentioned above) Paris. 

If the new roads are priced correctly, they will move a lot of traffic (because they will not succumb to congestion which badly reduces capacity), and the resulting revenue should be able to pay for maintenance and operation, and part of the construction cost.

Or it could end up a traffic jammed mess like the M5 freeway tunnel in Sydney, or any of the tunnels in the Hampton Roads area that jam up simply because tunnels are scary and people slam on their brakes.

Based on my own (informal) observations while driving through tunnels, mostly in my home state of Maryland, but also in the District of Columbia and Virginia, tunnels are generally scary to people that do not drive through them regularly, especially tunnels that a driver from out of town is not expecting. 

But the regulars seem to do just fine driving through them.

Of all the times I've thought about tunnels, never have I considered that people are "scared of them" and "slam on their breaks" upon entering. Never had that experience in the PNW. We don't have very many, granted, but there are quite a few near Seattle and, honestly, people tend to go really fast through them because there's no place for cops to hide (though legally, WSP isn't allowed to hide).

cpzilliacus

Quote from: jake on May 16, 2014, 11:33:31 PM
Of all the times I've thought about tunnels, never have I considered that people are "scared of them" and "slam on their breaks" upon entering. Never had that experience in the PNW. We don't have very many, granted, but there are quite a few near Seattle and, honestly, people tend to go really fast through them because there's no place for cops to hide (though legally, WSP isn't allowed to hide).

There's no place for police to hide in the tunnels under Baltimore's harbor (I-95, Fort McHenry Tunnel and I-895, Baltimore Harbor Tunnel); nor are there any places for police to hide in the tunnel parts of the bridge-tunnels in the Hampton Roads area of Virginia (I-64, Hampton Roads Bridge Tunnel, I-664, Monitor—Merrimac Memorial Bridge Tunnel and U.S. 13, Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel).

The U.S. 13 Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel is extremely long, with two relatively short tunnels, and I have seen the CBBT Police (the crossing has its own cops) looking for speeders on the four transition islands, but there's no place to hide inside the tunnels.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Tom958

Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 16, 2014, 04:31:39 PM
Other places in the EU have built (or are building) similar roads below-grade, including Madrid, Stockholm and (as mentioned above) Paris.

Prague, too. From Wikipedia:
QuoteInner Ring Road (The City Ring "MO"): Once completed it will surround the wider central part of the city. The longest city tunnel in Europe with a proposed length of 5.5 kilometres (3.4 mi) and five interchanges is now being built to relieve congestion in the north-western part of Prague. Called Tunel Blanka and to be part of the City Ring Road, it is estimated that it will now cost — after several increases — 38 billion CZK. Construction started in 2007 and the tunnel is scheduled to be completed in 2013/2014. This tunnel complex will complete major part of the inner ring road. The entire City Ring is estimated to be finished after 2020.



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