New North Dakota state route marker design

[J N Winkler]

The speculation is cultural appropriation, but I am not aware NDDOT has released anything public to confirm.

[Brandon]

So what was the issue with the native american head design? Didnt they use a similar design for decades?

Yes, and it's actually a Sioux headdress.

[SD Mapman]

So what was the issue with the native american head design? Didnt they use a similar design for decades?

Yes, and it's actually a Sioux headdress.

Actually, it's the profile of Marcellus Red Tomahawk, the guy who killed Sitting Bull (and they use his profile for other things as well): http://bismarcktribune.com/news/columnists/curt-eriksmoen/the-man-behind-the-highway-patrol-logo/article_d77f6384-c106-11de-b9d6-001cc4c03286.html

[SD Mapman]

Doesn't North Dakota know that shield backgrounds aren't to be used on guide signs?  Yuk.  Looks like we have a new New Jersey on our hands.

It might be a "Distinguish from SD" thing, as SD doesn't use shield backgrounds.


Yay, 700th Post!

[Brandon]

So what was the issue with the native american head design? Didnt they use a similar design for decades?

Yes, and it's actually a Sioux headdress.

Actually, it's the profile of Marcellus Red Tomahawk, the guy who killed Sitting Bull (and they use his profile for other things as well): http://bismarcktribune.com/news/columnists/curt-eriksmoen/the-man-behind-the-highway-patrol-logo/article_d77f6384-c106-11de-b9d6-001cc4c03286.html

Then removing him from the state route markers and replacing those with a generic state-shape shield is a grave mistake, IMHO.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

So what was the issue with the native american head design? Didnt they use a similar design for decades?

Maybe they just wanted a rebrand. But it's likely not a coincidence it came about around the same time as the end of the bitter years-long battle over U of ND's nickname and mascot.

[paulthemapguy]

Actually, it's the profile of Marcellus Red Tomahawk, the guy who killed Sitting Bull (and they use his profile for other things as well): http://bismarcktribune.com/news/columnists/curt-eriksmoen/the-man-behind-the-highway-patrol-logo/article_d77f6384-c106-11de-b9d6-001cc4c03286.html

Then removing him from the state route markers and replacing those with a generic state-shape shield is a grave mistake, IMHO.

If he belongs to the Lakota, maybe communicating with the actual Lakota is the most responsible thing to do.  If the Lakota have expressed concerns that it's insensitive, maybe it's time to change it.  But maybe they would like the recognition as being such important part of the state that they were put on the road markers!  It could go either way, but the only way to know their stance is to talk to them directly!

[SD Mapman]

So what was the issue with the native american head design? Didnt they use a similar design for decades?

Maybe they just wanted a rebrand. But it's likely not a coincidence it came about around the same time as the end of the bitter years-long battle over U of ND's nickname and mascot.

I think it's more of a preventative measure, to try to avoid any controversy whatsoever. This would keep in line with the fact that it was never officially announced (to try to avoid riling up the people opposed to change).

[M86]

I came across this in my travels today.  This is at I-29 & ND 11, just east of the interchange looking west. The overpass over I-29 is closed, so a detour onto I-29 is posted.

I've never posted a photo here before, so hopefully I did it correctly.

[SD Mapman]

I came across this in my travels today.  This is at I-29 & ND 11, just east of the interchange looking west. The overpass over I-29 is closed, so a detour onto I-29 is posted.

I've never posted a photo here before, so hopefully I did it correctly.

~snipped~

Yes, it worked. Did you happen to notice any non-detour signs in the area?

[jbnv]

It appears route markers aren't the only things North Dakota is about to change:

http://www.aashtojournal.org/Pages/12232015ndakota.aspx

What is this? The linked page isn't loading today.

[M86]

Yes, it worked. Did you happen to notice any non-detour signs in the area?

Nope, all the signs I saw were associated with the detour.  There was this, some on the ramps, and some on I-29 at the next exit to the north for the detour.  I'll keep my eye out though, I venture up to ND quite a bit.

[M86]

It looks like more are starting to pop up.  These were in the town of Forman:




(Sorry about the blurriness in that one)

I also saw some for ND 1804 north of Bismarck but didn't get a photo.

[rte66man]

It looks like more are starting to pop up.  These were in the town of Forman:

Compared to South Dakota:



I think its interesting they decided to cram the state name in there. 

[paulthemapguy]

I think its interesting they decided to cram the state name in there.

They had the space for it, considering that ND is wider than it is tall.  They could have done the same for SD, because the state's overall proportions are similar.  Instead, they stretched the state's shape vertically so it could cover more of the square sign panel.  Which is the better choice?  I'm not sure.  But ND's shape is a bit less distinctive so I think that adding the state name was a useful thing to do.

[M86]

Compared to South Dakota:



I think its interesting they decided to cram the state name in there. 

Good grief, SDDOT needs a sign engineer... or an engineer that knows signs and fonts. There needs to be some consistency!

The old ND route sign had N and D in the corners, with the headdress.  And now, they're mimicking Minnesota's route marker.

[SD Mapman]

The old ND route sign had N and D in the corners, with the headdress.  And now, they're mimicking Minnesota's route marker.

That's 'cause ND is the failed hybrid of SD and MN.

Good grief, SDDOT needs a sign engineer... or an engineer that knows signs and fonts. There needs to be some consistency!

My guess is the sign on the left was part of a different project.

Back to the subject at hand, I took a trip through Western ND recently and did not notice any new signs (and I looked too). Just guessing, but were those two photos on the eastern side of the state?

[7/8]

I personally think the old shields looked a lot better. The old ones had character, the new ones look more generic.

Back to the subject at hand, I took a trip through Western ND recently and did not notice any new signs (and I looked too). Just guessing, but were those two photos on the eastern side of the state?

Maybe they plan on only replacing older worn-out signs; that would certainly make more sense economically then replacing perfectly good signs.

[Scott5114]

He meant nobody uses a North Dakota state shape but North Dakota...

[kphoger]

I've got no problem with them looking nearly identical on guide signs anyway.  So what if they do?  If you have trouble navigating because you thought you were in a different state, then you shouldn't be on the highway.

[J N Winkler]

I've got no problem with them looking nearly identical on guide signs anyway.  So what if they do?  If you have trouble navigating because you thought you were in a different state, then you shouldn't be on the highway.

Even at a distance, I think they are sufficiently easy to distinguish since only SD has that rather conspicuous "tail" on the southeast corner.  SD also has just the one width for guide signs.

My biggest objection to the ND design is the use of the independent-mount shield as the guide-sign shield.  This puts black directly on top of green, which is a rule-of-tincture violation.  I would adapt the design concept for guide signs by having "NORTH DAKOTA" in white floating above the state shape, whose width would vary with digit count (Texas/Louisiana/old Caltrans style) to allow the use of Series D at a consistent height and normal intercharacter spacing regardless of number of digits in the route number.

An alternate and simpler solution that avoids a rule-of-tincture violation is simply to invert the colors of the independent-mount shield.  This is very similar to what Idaho does with guide-sign state route shields, except that the state shape appears in outline rather than solid black, presumably to avoid a black blob that would obscure the digits at a distance.

[WestDakota]

We finally had some official stories about why the change is being made. 

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2016/08/10/north-dakota-faced-complaints-over-sioux-image-signs

Basically, a former North Dakota resident who is not Native American threatened to sue the state.

Red Tomahawk descendants are upset about the change, and are quoted in the story complaining about "Indian wannabes" causing problems.

[Brandon]

We finally had some official stories about why the change is being made. 

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2016/08/10/north-dakota-faced-complaints-over-sioux-image-signs

Basically, a former North Dakota resident who is not Native American threatened to sue the state.

Red Tomahawk descendants are upset about the change, and are quoted in the story complaining about "Indian wannabes" causing problems.

Basically a white twit is pissy because they use the image of a person who was Amerindian?  I'm getting just a bit sick of this whitewashing of our history, removing tribal images and names because some white asshole finds them offensive.

[SD Mapman]

We finally had some official stories about why the change is being made. 

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2016/08/10/north-dakota-faced-complaints-over-sioux-image-signs

Basically, a former North Dakota resident who is not Native American threatened to sue the state.

Red Tomahawk descendants are upset about the change, and are quoted in the story complaining about "Indian wannabes" causing problems.

Aaaand I thought as much.

[paulthemapguy]

We finally had some official stories about why the change is being made. 

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2016/08/10/north-dakota-faced-complaints-over-sioux-image-signs

Basically, a former North Dakota resident who is not Native American threatened to sue the state.

Red Tomahawk descendants are upset about the change, and are quoted in the story complaining about "Indian wannabes" causing problems.

Basically a white twit is pissy because they use the image of a person who was Amerindian?  I'm getting just a bit sick of this whitewashing of our history, removing tribal images and names because some white asshole finds them offensive.

White people on both the political left and the right need to stop trying to speak for people and groups they know nothing about.
This is how I explained it to my friend:
North Dakota's state highway markers have featured the cut out of a Native Sioux Chief for the last century, as shown in the picture.
White people complained about it saying it's a misappropriation of Native culture. They threaten the state with legal action, so the state decides to change their state highway marker to a boring cutout shape of North Dakota.
Now the Native American chiefs at the Sioux reservation are seeing the changed signs, and they're actually disappointed about it! Now it's clear. The people who complained about the signs were white SJW-types trying to speak for minorities they had no business speaking for.

I posted this quote too from the article, which I love: 

According to one chief's perception, the Native American symbology on the original signs cited a partnership between cultures. To quote, "'The reason why Red Tomahawk is on those signs was to honor that tribal relationship,' Standing Rock Sioux Chairman Dave Archambault II said. 'All of the sudden, they want to take that honoring away. We're not happy.'