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Would the cost of the I-4 ultimate widening be able to pay the SR 417 bonds?

Started by roadman65, April 02, 2016, 08:56:22 AM

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roadman65

I was often wondering about mainly if FL State Road 417 if it were a free road alternative to the ever busy Interstate 4 through Orlando,  would it accomplish what the I-4 ultimate is supposed to eventually do? 

Being SR 417 is a bypass of I-4 and could actually be an x04 like many of have suggested it to be, could actually, for certain, take many motorists off of the busy interstate between Celebration and Sanford.  However, many locals and commuters in between Exits 62 and 101 do use I-4 to get to and from work to fill the current six lanes of traffic that create some of the volume there as well. Then again are the many motorists, when the ultimate is complete, going to patronize paying the tolls that will be in place for those extra lanes?

So is the I-4 ultimate really going to help or could the money being spend on that particular project be applied to making SR 417 a free road?  I would say no, I would guess for sure that most of the mess is commuters entering and leaving the interstate between both ends of FL 417. In fact I am almost certain that most of I-4's mess in Central Florida are short term drivers and that providing a relief route for straight through motorists will take out many of course, but not enough.

What are some of your thoughts on this one?
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe


Max Rockatansky

I would doubt it given it's been general FDOT policy over the years to maintain separate toll roads from federal routs no matter what and in that regard the Turnpike Enterprise maintains some parts of 417.  The most extreme example is the separation of I-95 and the Turnpike south of FL 70.  Now if FL 417 was solely under the maintenance of Central Florida Expressway Authority I would say there was a chance. I'm okay with a bypass being a tolled route more than a through route like 408 and 528 are.  It would have been nice not to have to get tolled everyday going through downtown or just to get to the Airport or I-95 a different way.  But I'll say this, at least in Florida the tolls are cheap...I still think it's only about $18 dollars to take the entire route of the Turnpike from Ocala to Florida City.

realjd

Quote from: roadman65 on April 02, 2016, 08:56:22 AM
I was often wondering about mainly if FL State Road 417 if it were a free road alternative to the ever busy Interstate 4 through Orlando,  would it accomplish what the I-4 ultimate is supposed to eventually do? 

Being SR 417 is a bypass of I-4 and could actually be an x04 like many of have suggested it to be, could actually, for certain, take many motorists off of the busy interstate between Celebration and Sanford.  However, many locals and commuters in between Exits 62 and 101 do use I-4 to get to and from work to fill the current six lanes of traffic that create some of the volume there as well. Then again are the many motorists, when the ultimate is complete, going to patronize paying the tolls that will be in place for those extra lanes?

So is the I-4 ultimate really going to help or could the money being spend on that particular project be applied to making SR 417 a free road?  I would say no, I would guess for sure that most of the mess is commuters entering and leaving the interstate between both ends of FL 417. In fact I am almost certain that most of I-4's mess in Central Florida are short term drivers and that providing a relief route for straight through motorists will take out many of course, but not enough.

What are some of your thoughts on this one?

One thing to keep in mind is that CFX doesn't use tolls on a road to directly pay back bonds for that specific road. Tolls on the 417 are used for projects like the Wekiva Parkway, the removal of the toll booth on the 528, etc. The tolls fund the CFX system as a whole. It's a different business model than you see in other places.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: realjd on April 03, 2016, 04:46:04 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 02, 2016, 08:56:22 AM
I was often wondering about mainly if FL State Road 417 if it were a free road alternative to the ever busy Interstate 4 through Orlando,  would it accomplish what the I-4 ultimate is supposed to eventually do? 

Being SR 417 is a bypass of I-4 and could actually be an x04 like many of have suggested it to be, could actually, for certain, take many motorists off of the busy interstate between Celebration and Sanford.  However, many locals and commuters in between Exits 62 and 101 do use I-4 to get to and from work to fill the current six lanes of traffic that create some of the volume there as well. Then again are the many motorists, when the ultimate is complete, going to patronize paying the tolls that will be in place for those extra lanes?

So is the I-4 ultimate really going to help or could the money being spend on that particular project be applied to making SR 417 a free road?  I would say no, I would guess for sure that most of the mess is commuters entering and leaving the interstate between both ends of FL 417. In fact I am almost certain that most of I-4's mess in Central Florida are short term drivers and that providing a relief route for straight through motorists will take out many of course, but not enough.

What are some of your thoughts on this one?

One thing to keep in mind is that CFX doesn't use tolls on a road to directly pay back bonds for that specific road. Tolls on the 417 are used for projects like the Wekiva Parkway, the removal of the toll booth on the 528, etc. The tolls fund the CFX system as a whole. It's a different business model than you see in other places.

True, to which I really hope they put some of that money more into finishing 429 north east back to I-4.  That would be the ideal bypass for me since it would cut north towards Clermont and basically uninhabited swamp as opposed to MCO, UCF, Colonial and Sanford.

jwolfer

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 03, 2016, 11:25:46 PM
Quote from: realjd on April 03, 2016, 04:46:04 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 02, 2016, 08:56:22 AM
I was often wondering about mainly if FL State Road 417 if it were a free road alternative to the ever busy Interstate 4 through Orlando,  would it accomplish what the I-4 ultimate is supposed to eventually do? 

Being SR 417 is a bypass of I-4 and could actually be an x04 like many of have suggested it to be, could actually, for certain, take many motorists off of the busy interstate between Celebration and Sanford.  However, many locals and commuters in between Exits 62 and 101 do use I-4 to get to and from work to fill the current six lanes of traffic that create some of the volume there as well. Then again are the many motorists, when the ultimate is complete, going to patronize paying the tolls that will be in place for those extra lanes?

So is the I-4 ultimate really going to help or could the money being spend on that particular project be applied to making SR 417 a free road?  I would say no, I would guess for sure that most of the mess is commuters entering and leaving the interstate between both ends of FL 417. In fact I am almost certain that most of I-4's mess in Central Florida are short term drivers and that providing a relief route for straight through motorists will take out many of course, but not enough.

What are some of your thoughts on this one?

One thing to keep in mind is that CFX doesn't use tolls on a road to directly pay back bonds for that specific road. Tolls on the 417 are used for projects like the Wekiva Parkway, the removal of the toll booth on the 528, etc. The tolls fund the CFX system as a whole. It's a different business model than you see in other places.

True, to which I really hope they put some of that money more into finishing 429 north east back to I-4.  That would be the ideal bypass for me since it would cut north towards Clermont and basically uninhabited swamp as opposed to MCO, UCF, Colonial and Sanford.
429 is in the middle of nowhere now, but around Clermont will be developed.. Thru wekiva it will be never developed. It is under construction from 441 to 46. I don't know when the plans are to complete to i4.. I could see it getting perpetually delayed

roadman65

I bring this one up as a non road geek once suggested that the state pay the bond off on 417.  And yes I am beginning to see that FDOT won't go against FTE, a part of them, and also the CFX is so big and strong.  However, the state has the power to actually stop CFX if they really wanted to.

As far as tolls being cheap here, that is iffy. I collect tolls at the Beeline West, and so many do not like paying the $2.25 for the toll there.  Heck some cannot literally afford it as they come into the plaza with NO MONEY or like Saturday I spent the whole entire day counting pennies as so many did not have even a buck or two or even quarters.

Now I myself think our tolls are reasonable compared to Delaware and some other states, but others live in the dark ages and come off their flight dumbfounded that the toll is there and are all mad that they have no money to give us or have to park their car and look everywhere in their possessions to come up with a simple 2 and a quarter.   It amazes me at how many think that the toll is expensive, but then again we are in a misled society these days.  However we do live in a democratic era these days, and if the majority of the people are stupid of the obvious then that ends up being the general rule eventually.   Whether 2 bucks is considered cheap or expensive is strictly an opinion and not a fact as its a conclusion obtained by personal reasoning.  Basically I am saying that to some people the tolls in Florida are not cheap!

I myself think that if you do not like tolls, you avoid them, but with everyone using GPS to get from point a to point b, its going to be normal.  Also with progressive thinkers nowadays who think that money should be outlawed and the debit and Visa or MC should be the way to pay.  So more and more we are going to see cars pull up to toll booths without money and all there because they they were led there and feel that the GPS is not an excuse but an explanation!  My take is that soon Orlando will join Miami and Tampa and go AET especially with traffic jams at the plazas due to most drivers unprepared for paying the tolls and of course the ignorance of modern society not familiarizing themselves with the nation's road network fueled by the GPS to make that only worse.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

UCFKnights

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 02, 2016, 09:24:06 AM
I would doubt it given it's been general FDOT policy over the years to maintain separate toll roads from federal routs no matter what and in that regard the Turnpike Enterprise maintains some parts of 417.  The most extreme example is the separation of I-95 and the Turnpike south of FL 70.  Now if FL 417 was solely under the maintenance of Central Florida Expressway Authority I would say there was a chance. I'm okay with a bypass being a tolled route more than a through route like 408 and 528 are.  It would have been nice not to have to get tolled everyday going through downtown or just to get to the Airport or I-95 a different way.  But I'll say this, at least in Florida the tolls are cheap...I still think it's only about $18 dollars to take the entire route of the Turnpike from Ocala to Florida City.
The Turnpike is among Florida's cheapest toll roads.. it averages 6.6 cents per mile. CFX roads average 14 cents per mile, more than double. CFX rates I believe are very average for the country, whereas Turnpike is the among the lowest in the country.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: roadman65 on April 04, 2016, 09:47:58 AM
I bring this one up as a non road geek once suggested that the state pay the bond off on 417.  And yes I am beginning to see that FDOT won't go against FTE, a part of them, and also the CFX is so big and strong.  However, the state has the power to actually stop CFX if they really wanted to.

As far as tolls being cheap here, that is iffy. I collect tolls at the Beeline West, and so many do not like paying the $2.25 for the toll there.  Heck some cannot literally afford it as they come into the plaza with NO MONEY or like Saturday I spent the whole entire day counting pennies as so many did not have even a buck or two or even quarters.

Now I myself think our tolls are reasonable compared to Delaware and some other states, but others live in the dark ages and come off their flight dumbfounded that the toll is there and are all mad that they have no money to give us or have to park their car and look everywhere in their possessions to come up with a simple 2 and a quarter.   It amazes me at how many think that the toll is expensive, but then again we are in a misled society these days.  However we do live in a democratic era these days, and if the majority of the people are stupid of the obvious then that ends up being the general rule eventually.   Whether 2 bucks is considered cheap or expensive is strictly an opinion and not a fact as its a conclusion obtained by personal reasoning.  Basically I am saying that to some people the tolls in Florida are not cheap!

I myself think that if you do not like tolls, you avoid them, but with everyone using GPS to get from point a to point b, its going to be normal.  Also with progressive thinkers nowadays who think that money should be outlawed and the debit and Visa or MC should be the way to pay.  So more and more we are going to see cars pull up to toll booths without money and all there because they they were led there and feel that the GPS is not an excuse but an explanation!  My take is that soon Orlando will join Miami and Tampa and go AET especially with traffic jams at the plazas due to most drivers unprepared for paying the tolls and of course the ignorance of modern society not familiarizing themselves with the nation's road network fueled by the GPS to make that only worse.

I have an Uncle up in Lady Lake that refuses to pay any tolls to get around anywhere in the state.  He literally slugs it from US 27 all the way to US 192 up to Boggy Creek just to avoid the Turnpike and US 441 through downtown Orlando.  Granted he really doesn't have the driving ability to handle something like the Turnpike anymore it's still mildly amusing that a man with that much money is so cheap that he literally avoids the most logical road.

That's what I never understood about people who refused to get a Sun Pass, usually the discounts are at least enough of an impact to buy back the cost of the transmitter within a month or two.  Basically if you have that transmitter you can pretty much blow by almost every toll station save for the one that is being removed on the 528.  Also Florida in general is a lot less strict on toll violations for the random person who doesn't know they are on a toll road than most states.  On the flip side people being cheap or supposedly can't afford tolls are the primary reason why I-4 and OBT are so clogged with traffic in the Orlando area in general.  I've lost some of my workers because they told me they couldn't hack the costs of tolls...

I'm trying to think, the last time I passed through Maryland and Delaware I believe that I paid somewhere in the neighborhood of $40 dollars to get through both of those states. 

Quote from: UCFKnights on April 04, 2016, 11:35:54 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 02, 2016, 09:24:06 AM
I would doubt it given it's been general FDOT policy over the years to maintain separate toll roads from federal routs no matter what and in that regard the Turnpike Enterprise maintains some parts of 417.  The most extreme example is the separation of I-95 and the Turnpike south of FL 70.  Now if FL 417 was solely under the maintenance of Central Florida Expressway Authority I would say there was a chance. I'm okay with a bypass being a tolled route more than a through route like 408 and 528 are.  It would have been nice not to have to get tolled everyday going through downtown or just to get to the Airport or I-95 a different way.  But I'll say this, at least in Florida the tolls are cheap...I still think it's only about $18 dollars to take the entire route of the Turnpike from Ocala to Florida City.
The Turnpike is among Florida's cheapest toll roads.. it averages 6.6 cents per mile. CFX roads average 14 cents per mile, more than double. CFX rates I believe are very average for the country, whereas Turnpike is the among the lowest in the country.

Which basically is in keeping with most urbanized toll facilities around the country.  As much as people complained about them in Florida in that regard it was much better than the alternative of having state income tax to fund freeway replacements instead.  At least in theory you should be able to find a free alternate in most situations even though it may be a substantially longer commute...  There are still a lot of under utilized surface roads in Orlando that make great through ways like Conway and Orange Ave that are next to busier signed highways like OBT in addition to Semoran.

roadman65

Quote from: UCFKnights on April 04, 2016, 11:35:54 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 02, 2016, 09:24:06 AM
I would doubt it given it's been general FDOT policy over the years to maintain separate toll roads from federal routs no matter what and in that regard the Turnpike Enterprise maintains some parts of 417.  The most extreme example is the separation of I-95 and the Turnpike south of FL 70.  Now if FL 417 was solely under the maintenance of Central Florida Expressway Authority I would say there was a chance. I'm okay with a bypass being a tolled route more than a through route like 408 and 528 are.  It would have been nice not to have to get tolled everyday going through downtown or just to get to the Airport or I-95 a different way.  But I'll say this, at least in Florida the tolls are cheap...I still think it's only about $18 dollars to take the entire route of the Turnpike from Ocala to Florida City.
The Turnpike is among Florida's cheapest toll roads.. it averages 6.6 cents per mile. CFX roads average 14 cents per mile, more than double. CFX rates I believe are very average for the country, whereas Turnpike is the among the lowest in the country.
Yes, it may be, but I am not referring to that fact.  I am referring to opinions of many.  Some people out there do not care about facts.  Some people think that their opinions are indeed fact.  If you try telling that to those who complain to me about $2.25 on the Beachline, they will still say that to go a couple of miles and pay this is ridiculous!  I even pointed out, you complain about us, try going to Delaware and it still does not work and even tried that statement on a New Yorker and still he kept saying that we are too damned expensive.  Remember NYC has the highest tolls around for a single bridge and tunnel crossing, and this guy is not seeing the light.

People will be people and will not listen to facts like some on here do not!  To me I think lots of these people should not even be on a toll road and we warn them quite well, but you confront people about it and they say " I wish I could but this is the only road that is here" or the best one "My GPS put me here, I had no idea I would be paying toll" and of course I get the big one " Why do you not consider signing these roads" and I do tell them that is why the word TOLL appears on all FL 528 monikers at the entrance to the road when you entered.

People nowadays are stupid.  Heck you can actually save money too if you get a Sunpass, and actually get a rebate if you are local and travel only between Exit 8 and the west of the toll, where many locals freak out at having to pay the extra buck and a quarter which they never had to pay as that exit is not after the removed airport toll plaza.  If you use a Sunpass transponder there is a gantry at Exit 8 that subtracts the extra toll from your account as you exit or enter (depending which way you travel) and only charges you 89 cents which is more than half the two and a quarter that some were bitching at to me.  Of course the moment you say the word Sunpass, they often have their mind made up and do not want to even consider it and never give you the chance to talk money!

IMO, opinion I think any person who gets on the road who does not want to pay the toll should be fined for holding up traffic and that pennies should not be accepted like the Garden State Parkway refuses in NJ.  We have the signs and if a motorist cannot read the damned sign then they should not be driving.  Also there are alternative routes besides the toll roads leading out of the airport to wherever they are heading to, so it is their own free will to use the facility, and if people want to blame others for their own ignorance then they should be punished in some form!  To me giving 10 days to pay a toll is being too nice, and in fact I could not believe that FDOT does that practice after all their 100 dollar fine warnings at each plaza. Heck in NYC you come to the plaza without money or tell the collector your GPS told you to come this way as you had no money on you for not even figuring a toll along the way and he won't be so kind.

Tolls are cheap in Florida, but to some they are not even though the numbers are there.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe



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