How do you define Upstate NY?

[vdeane]

Well, I'd say there's a gray area (the "haze" we've been hashing over) where both are true. I think (or at least hope) we can all agree that anything north of the 42nd parallel is definitely upstate.

Well, we might agree on that, but then, I was born and raised in Rochester.  Someone from Massena might disagree.  Many in the North Country consider the Thruway to be "downstate".

That said, I was thinking in terms of "how people in the area see themselves", no "how other people see that area".

[02 Park Ave]

I think that Downstate is defined by where the cable TV systems carry NYC TV stations.  People living in those areas are New York City oriented; the people in the remainder of the state are not.  This is more of a cultural definition than using a certain highway as the boundry or even using Metro North.  It would also even devide certain counties, especially on the west side of the river.

[JJBers]

Why does everyone want to be living in upstate, other than the intermediate cities to NYC (Yonkers, so on) and Long Island.

[Roadgeekteen]

oops, ment I-84.

How do you get I-84 confused with I-287

I honestly have no clue.

Well, that's fine then...so what makes you pick I-84?

North of that is more rual.

[JJBers]

oops, ment I-84.

How do you get I-84 confused with I-287

I honestly have no clue.

Well, that's fine then...so what makes you pick I-84?

North of that is more rual.

I was on I-84 today, and I've noticed that until the Middletown area, and then after the Hudson, that's true. In the area, it steers north

[Otto Yamamoto]

Upstate used to be everything that's not NYC, but people from out of state still don't know you're not from NYC (or very close to it) when you tell them you're from "upstate" and I think this has a lot to do with all the NYC-themed TV shows. Anytime TV shows refer to "upstate" it's always some county that's only a few miles (relatively) from NYC. Western-NY has seemed to come more into prominence to help people understand that we're not from NYC, we just pay all their bills.

http://www.rockinst.org/observations/wardr/2011

P00I

[jp the roadgeek]

I think that Downstate is defined by where the cable TV systems carry NYC TV stations.  People living in those areas are New York City oriented; the people in the remainder of the state are not.  This is more of a cultural definition than using a certain highway as the boundry or even using Metro North.  It would also even devide certain counties, especially on the west side of the river.

That is pretty consistent with my Upstate/Downstate definition: The 845/518 and 845/607 area code being the northern limits

[empirestate]

oops, ment I-84.

How do you get I-84 confused with I-287

I honestly have no clue.

Well, that's fine then...so what makes you pick I-84?

North of that is more rual.

Not necessarily; I live in western Putnam County, which is much less densely populated than the areas immediately north of me in Dutchess County, on the other side of I-84. Indeed, there's quite a long stretch of pretty dense suburbia stretching from I-84 clear on up to, and beyond, Poughkeepsie.

But that's OK; I'm actually more interested in what the factors are than where the line is. So, if being rural is what defines a place as Upstate, you've got the obvious issue that Buffalo, Rochester and the other northern cities would then not count as Upstate, and I think you'd have a hard time finding agreement about that!

That's what I'm saying. You can certainly draw a line for each criterion alone. But when combined, it's no longer possible due to the resulting "haze" or gray area where one criterion works and another doesn't. I guess I'm thinking of the terms as relative. I personally wouldn't have said there was specific regions - if that was the case, wouldn't a boundary have been established centuries ago?

Yeah, it looks like you simply don't share the presumption that the terms are both relative and specific. And like I say, that's perfectly fine; it just means there isn't really anything for you in this thread, since this thread deals expressly with the specific use of the terms.

(A boundary wouldn't have been established centuries ago, no. There was nothing in New York other than the Dutch colonies–nothing elsewhere to define as "upstate"!)

Yes; but liquor laws (or any state laws) won't vary between upstate and downstate, so are somewhat irrelevant. I was thinking more along the lines of house prices/taxes/etc, things that could also vary across county or regional boundaries and are therefore applicable.

Sure; and those sorts of differences certainly exist as well. More subtle, perhaps, but you could find those lines if you took the time to chart them out.

Now, I think I've said my fair share. And I'm not going to start hashing out a dividing line; I'll leave that to those of you with more experience. Good luck 

Oh, it's not so much a matter of experience. You've simply got to believe!

[cl94]

We could also define Upstate as counties that don't pay into the MTA. The 5 New York City counties, Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, Orange and Dutchess pay into the MTA. While this line isn't too bad west of the Hudson, northern Dutchess (Rhinebeck, Red Hook, etc.) is generally considered Upstate and I would agree with that. You could argue about where the line falls in Orange as well, as NW Orange County is arguably Upstate.

[empirestate]

^ I'll accept that. But I will also note that in over seven pages of hashing this out, no real conclusions have been reached. So does that in and of itself not call into question the existence of specific regions? Who gets to determine where the regions are? Someone from Manhattan? Or the North Country? Or Buffalo?

To me, using the word "specific" infers that you already know approximately where the boundary is... and that begins to seem like circular logic.

Again, not denying the existence of regions, just noting that if they do exist, there should without question be an obvious consensus as to their general whereabouts  Which... there isn't, after over 150 replies.

There certainly isn't, but there isn't any consensus against specificity, either. I think you're the only one who's written at any length about that view; the vast majority of times, it simply seems that people answer only the first part of the question and never address the second, more important part.

We could also define Upstate as counties that don't pay into the MTA. The 5 New York City counties, Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, Orange and Dutchess pay into the MTA. While this line isn't too bad west of the Hudson, northern Dutchess (Rhinebeck, Red Hook, etc.) is generally considered Upstate and I would agree with that. You could argue about where the line falls in Orange as well, as NW Orange County is arguably Upstate.

Yes, that would be the MCTD I've mentioned throughout.


iPhone

[vdeane]

While this line isn't too bad west of the Hudson, northern Dutchess (Rhinebeck, Red Hook, etc.) is generally considered Upstate and I would agree with that.

My parents wouldn't consider those to be upstate.  Just goes to show how little agreement there really is.

[CNGL-Leudimin]

Continuing with thel 42nd parallel thing, if it's considered the divide then California is downstate and Oregon is upstate .

[JJBers]

Continuing with thel 42nd parallel thing, if it's considered the divide then California is downstate and Oregon is upstate .

I don't really have to edit my post, do I? 

We all know I meant stop drawing the line when you get to Connecticut...

Uhhhh...wrong side

[The Nature Boy]

Continuing with thel 42nd parallel thing, if it's considered the divide then California is downstate and Oregon is upstate .

I don't really have to edit my post, do I? 

We all know I meant stop drawing the line when you get to Connecticut...

Uhhhh...wrong side

Also, Pennsylvania's insistence on a piece of Lake Erie means that you stop drawing the line before you reach the end of Pennsylvania.

[CNGL-Leudimin]

Continuing with the 42nd parallel thing, if it's considered the divide then California is downstate and Oregon is upstate .

I don't really have to edit my post, do I? 

We all know I meant stop drawing the line when you get to Connecticut...

Uhhhh...wrong side

Earlier I extended on that side all the way to my area (which happens to be crossed by the 42nd parallel). I did it as a joke.

[roadman65]

Upstate is like Uptown.  In Manhattan Uptown is not only the area above 59th Street, but a directional move either on the subway or street.  So if you go from 14th Street to 34th Street you are traveling uptown even though you are not arriving there.

So going upstate from New York could mean a drive to Tarrytown or Peekskill or even Poughkeepsie.  Or even going from Beacon to Poughkeepsie or from Newburgh to Kingston on the Thruway.

It is more than just a region but a point of direction just like uptown and downtown in the big city.

[Otto Yamamoto]

Upstate is like Uptown.  In Manhattan Uptown is not only the area above 59th Street, but a directional move either on the subway or street.  So if you go from 14th Street to 34th Street you are traveling uptown even though you are not arriving there.

So going upstate from New York could mean a drive to Tarrytown or Peekskill or even Poughkeepsie.  Or even going from Beacon to Poughkeepsie or from Newburgh to Kingston on the Thruway.

It is more than just a region but a point of direction just like uptown and downtown in the big city.

Uptown and Downtown are also directions in The Bronx subways.

STV100-2

[empirestate]

Upstate is like Uptown.  In Manhattan Uptown is not only the area above 59th Street, but a directional move either on the subway or street.  So if you go from 14th Street to 34th Street you are traveling uptown even though you are not arriving there.

So going upstate from New York could mean a drive to Tarrytown or Peekskill or even Poughkeepsie.  Or even going from Beacon to Poughkeepsie or from Newburgh to Kingston on the Thruway.

It is more than just a region but a point of direction just like uptown and downtown in the big city.

That's very true. However, the question here deals only with the use of the term as a specific region. I'm asking how we define "Upstate NY" rather than the relative term "upstate"; a similar question might ask for the definition of "Northern California" even though we already know the definition of the relative term "north".


iPhone

[roadman65]

Too bad its not like Delaware where you can split North, Central, and South by the three counties.

Anyway, I was pointing out how ambiguous the use of upstate is.  I think you won't get a real definition as everyone has their own opinion as stated here.

[empirestate]

Too bad its not like Delaware where you can split North, Central, and South by the three counties.

Anyway, I was pointing out how ambiguous the use of upstate is.  I think you won't get a real definition as everyone has their own opinion as stated here.

On the contrary, I've got a definition already. I was wondering whether other people had their own definitions, whether they differ from my own, and whether they can be reconciled into one widely agreed-upon definition. But so far, it looks as if few people have such a specific definition, so there's really isn't much to reconcile. Among those who do accept that there's a definable "Upstate" region, my definition seems to hold up as sound as any!

[freebrickproductions]

So...

What's the closest thing we have to a consensus as to what "Upstate" New York is?

[empirestate]

So...

What's the closest thing we have to a consensus as to what "Upstate" New York is?

I was just thinking that. So far, I think we have the following criteria:
-Not served by Metro North
-Not part of the MCTD
-Not served by the NYC media market
-Not typically visited for weekend trips by NYC-area residents
-Marked by an accent/dialect akin to that of the Midwest rather than NYC
-Reflects the culture established by settlement patterns extending westward from New England, rather than originating from the Dutch colonies

Have I missed any major ones? (We have a few people who have said simply that Upstate isn't urban, but that's really hard to reconcile with the location of most of the state's largest cities. Another poster said that Upstate refers to the suburbs of NYC that are directly tied to it economically, which is incompatible with almost everyone else's definition.)

[kalvado]

So...

What's the closest thing we have to a consensus as to what "Upstate" New York is?

I was just thinking that. So far, I think we have the following criteria:
-Not served by Metro North
-Not part of the MCTD
-Not served by the NYC media market
-Not typically visited for weekend trips by NYC-area residents
-Marked by an accent/dialect akin to that of the Midwest rather than NYC
-Reflects the culture established by settlement patterns extending westward from New England, rather than originating from the Dutch colonies

Have I missed any major ones? (We have a few people who have said simply that Upstate isn't urban, but that's really hard to reconcile with the location of most of the state's largest cities. Another poster said that Upstate refers to the suburbs of NYC that are directly tied to it economically, which is incompatible with almost everyone else's definition.)

Would be great to add vote counts to these.... I actually thought  about combining results as a function of distance along I-87. Usually combination would result in some flavor of bell shaped curve, showing both range of opinions  and some sort of average. 

[empirestate]

So...

What's the closest thing we have to a consensus as to what "Upstate" New York is?

I was just thinking that. So far, I think we have the following criteria:
-Not served by Metro North
-Not part of the MCTD
-Not served by the NYC media market
-Not typically visited for weekend trips by NYC-area residents
-Marked by an accent/dialect akin to that of the Midwest rather than NYC
-Reflects the culture established by settlement patterns extending westward from New England, rather than originating from the Dutch colonies

Have I missed any major ones? (We have a few people who have said simply that Upstate isn't urban, but that's really hard to reconcile with the location of most of the state's largest cities. Another poster said that Upstate refers to the suburbs of NYC that are directly tied to it economically, which is incompatible with almost everyone else's definition.)

Would be great to add vote counts to these.... I actually thought  about combining results as a function of distance along I-87. Usually combination would result in some flavor of bell shaped curve, showing both range of opinions  and some sort of average. 

I tried, but it doesn't appear that I can allow multiple options to be selected in a poll.

[JJBers]

Geez, that is one complex definition of a area that's gonna shrink in a couple decades.