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Author Topic: Duplicate Interstate numbers?  (Read 4705 times)

20160805

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Re: Duplicate Interstate numbers?
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2017, 09:19:16 AM »

Another note about 3di numbering: US Highways generally use the same system, with odd first digits indicating spur routes and even first digits indicating loops, but there are multiple exceptions to this rule:
  • US 163 is nowhere near US 63
  • US 400 implies the existence of US 0, which doesn't actually exist
  • US 412 is nowhere near US 12
  • US 425 is nowhere near US 25
  • US 141 actually reaches US 41 twice: it begins at I-43 in metro Green Bay, WI, then follows a bunch of surface streets before running concurrent with US 41 for 17 miles, then splitting off but then meeting up with it again in the UP near Covington, MI.

But listing every single duplicate 3di would be VERY tedious, and we've already established the four duplicate 2dis also, which in my opinion should either be connected or renumbered.  Number duplication and grid violations are both things I really don't like about the Interstate system as it stands right now, and I also think it's become just a money/political deal now anyway.

I've drifted so far off topic by now that it's probably best I stop here.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 09:22:03 AM by 20160805 »
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vdeane

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Re: Duplicate Interstate numbers?
« Reply #51 on: January 15, 2017, 06:27:05 PM »

There are so many exceptions to the rules for US routes that I didn't even know there WERE rules until you posted them.  Combine that with 3dus routes being MUCH longer and 3di routes (functioning more like alternate routes), and they seem to be essentially random.
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Re: Duplicate Interstate numbers?
« Reply #52 on: January 15, 2017, 06:41:55 PM »

The first digit of a 3dus does not indicate loop/spur. It indicates where along the parent route it is. For example, 201 is in Maine, and then 301 in Virginia, 401 in northern North Carolina, 501 in southern North Carolina, and 601 in South Carolina. (US 701 does not touch US 1.)
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Clinched:
I-88(NY), I-290(MA), I-291(MA)
MA 125, 129A, 150, 213, 228
NY 96B, 495
NJ 90, 495
NH 97, 150

Interstates traveled: 7⒌8⒈8⒋8⒌8⒎88NY.8⒐90.9⒈9⒊9⒌27⒏28⒌290MA.291MA.29⒊39⒊395DC.395MA/CT.495MA.676

US traveled: ①⓵BYP③④⑤⑥⑪⑬⑲⑳㉓㉗㉙㉚㊶㊿7⒏80.20⒉27⒏30⒈441

20160805

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Re: Duplicate Interstate numbers?
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2017, 06:55:50 AM »

There are so many exceptions to the rules for US routes that I didn't even know there WERE rules until you posted them.  Combine that with 3dus routes being MUCH longer and 3di routes (functioning more like alternate routes), and they seem to be essentially random.

For some reason I thought US Highways and Interstates had that same basic numbering rule.  :hmmm:

I know state highways don't (at least not that I know of); Wisconsin's state highway numbers are completely random.

Edit:

The first digit of a 3dus does not indicate loop/spur. It indicates where along the parent route it is. For example, 201 is in Maine, and then 301 in Virginia, 401 in northern North Carolina, 501 in southern North Carolina, and 601 in South Carolina. (US 701 does not touch US 1.)

That makes a lot more sense.  For some reason I thought they had the same rule as Interstates - color me stupid!  :pan: :-P

Although US 101 isn't anywhere near US 1; 101 uses "10" as its first digit, in a sense.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 06:58:19 AM by 20160805 »
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invincor

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Re: Duplicate Interstate numbers?
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2017, 12:56:33 PM »


For some reason I thought US Highways and Interstates had that same basic numbering rule.  :hmmm:

I know state highways don't (at least not that I know of); Wisconsin's state highway numbers are completely random.


Another difference is in what the second digit signifies.  In the US numbering system, a second digit of "0" or "1" was meant to indicate a border-to-border route, whereas in the Interstate system it's "0" or "5." 

When Wisconsin's system was first laid out in 1917 (hey, 100th anniversary this year!), there was a systemic logic to it, but that wasn't stuck to beyond the first iteration and has been allowed to develop on an ad-hoc basis so that it looks random today.  The starting rules went like this:
- No single-digit routes.  They didn't want one area or city thinking it had been disfavored over others by getting a high-number route. 
- They started at 11 and gave that to the then-longest route established.  12 went to the 2nd-longest, and so on.
That second rule went out the window very rapidly as more miles were added to the system, and routes got lengthened without their number changing to fit that rule.  35 has been the very longest route since the 1930s or so, for example.
It got further erased once the U.S. Highways were mapped on top of the existing state system in the late 1920s.  That also brought in two single-digit routes (U.S. 2 and U.S. 8), but the state has otherwise continued to not use single-digit routes at all.   
AASHO thought certain regions getting "important" numbers was a feature of the system, not a bug, as it helped sell the idea of the adopting the U.S. highway system to reluctant states by promising them a piece of the important-number action. 

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vdeane

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Re: Duplicate Interstate numbers?
« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2017, 04:04:39 PM »

There are so many exceptions to the rules for US routes that I didn't even know there WERE rules until you posted them.  Combine that with 3dus routes being MUCH longer and 3di routes (functioning more like alternate routes), and they seem to be essentially random.

For some reason I thought US Highways and Interstates had that same basic numbering rule.  :hmmm:

I know state highways don't (at least not that I know of); Wisconsin's state highway numbers are completely random.

Edit:

The first digit of a 3dus does not indicate loop/spur. It indicates where along the parent route it is. For example, 201 is in Maine, and then 301 in Virginia, 401 in northern North Carolina, 501 in southern North Carolina, and 601 in South Carolina. (US 701 does not touch US 1.)

That makes a lot more sense.  For some reason I thought they had the same rule as Interstates - color me stupid!  :pan: :-P

Although US 101 isn't anywhere near US 1; 101 uses "10" as its first digit, in a sense.
For 2dus routes, it is basically the same as the interstates, just reversed, 1-101 instead of 1-99, and with 0 and 1 being transcontinental instead of 0 and 5; it's mostly adhered to, but there are routes like US 62 in there as well.  For 3dus routes, there is much less of a pattern and it always appeared to be semi-random to me.  Doesn't help that the closest 3dus routes to where I grew up were US 219 (US 19 doesn't even enter NY, and it's long enough that I wondered why it doesn't have a 2dus number), US 220 (similar; it never connects to US 20 and looks like an independent corridor), and former US 104.
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bzakharin

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Re: Duplicate Interstate numbers?
« Reply #56 on: January 17, 2017, 10:25:16 AM »

...I could see an interstate-quality loop or spur of a 3di being assigned a 4-digit number (i.e. something like I-2405 could be a loop for I-405, etc.)

There are instances of a 3di branching off from a 3di.  In NJ, I-195 branches off of I-295.  In MD, I-370 connects only with I-270.  Personally, it's much easier this way than trying to use a 4di route number.


I-195 does have an interchange with I-95 (NJ Turnpike), though I don't believe it was I-95 at the time I-195 was designated
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PHLBOS

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Re: Duplicate Interstate numbers?
« Reply #57 on: January 17, 2017, 10:55:09 AM »

...I could see an interstate-quality loop or spur of a 3di being assigned a 4-digit number (i.e. something like I-2405 could be a loop for I-405, etc.)
There are instances of a 3di branching off from a 3di.  In NJ, I-195 branches off of I-295.  In MD, I-370 connects only with I-270.  Personally, it's much easier this way than trying to use a 4di route number.
I-195 does have an interchange with I-95 (NJ Turnpike), though I don't believe it was I-95 at the time I-195 was designated
Correct.

In MA, I-190 branches off I-290 just north of Worcester and does not cross/intersect/interchange with its I-90 parent.
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sparker

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Re: Duplicate Interstate numbers?
« Reply #58 on: January 17, 2017, 11:44:02 AM »

...I could see an interstate-quality loop or spur of a 3di being assigned a 4-digit number (i.e. something like I-2405 could be a loop for I-405, etc.)
There are instances of a 3di branching off from a 3di.  In NJ, I-195 branches off of I-295.  In MD, I-370 connects only with I-270.  Personally, it's much easier this way than trying to use a 4di route number.
I-195 does have an interchange with I-95 (NJ Turnpike), though I don't believe it was I-95 at the time I-195 was designated
Correct.

In MA, I-190 branches off I-290 just north of Worcester and does not cross/intersect/interchange with its I-90 parent.

This is echoed in CA, where I-105 never intersects its "parent" I-5, but terminates at I-605 at its eastern end and crosses I-405 a few miles east of its western end at/near CA 1.  Similarly, I-380 branches off I-280 at San Bruno and provides access to SFO airport, while I-980 is strung between I-880 and I-580 in Oakland.
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kphoger

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Re: Duplicate Interstate numbers?
« Reply #59 on: January 17, 2017, 01:31:48 PM »

US 400 implies the existence of US 0, which doesn't actually exist

Not necessarily.  It could also imply the existence of US-100.
(BTW, I live 2 blocks from US-400.)
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20160805

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Re: Duplicate Interstate numbers?
« Reply #60 on: January 19, 2017, 07:30:24 AM »

US 400 implies the existence of US 0, which doesn't actually exist

Not necessarily.  It could also imply the existence of US-100.
(BTW, I live 2 blocks from US-400.)

US 100 also does not exist.

kphoger

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Re: Duplicate Interstate numbers?
« Reply #61 on: January 19, 2017, 11:16:17 AM »

US 400 implies the existence of US 0, which doesn't actually exist

Not necessarily.  It could also imply the existence of US-100.
(BTW, I live 2 blocks from US-400.)

US 100 also does not exist.

No kidding.
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coatimundi

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Re: Duplicate Interstate numbers?
« Reply #62 on: January 19, 2017, 01:01:16 PM »

US 400 implies the existence of US 0, which doesn't actually exist

Not necessarily.  It could also imply the existence of US-100.
(BTW, I live 2 blocks from US-400.)

Did you have to pull out the character map for that fraction, or do you just know the short-cut key?

I read that they're going to extend US 163 to Missouri. I think CNN reported it.
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kphoger

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Re: Duplicate Interstate numbers?
« Reply #63 on: January 19, 2017, 01:15:24 PM »



Did you have to pull out the character map for that fraction, or do you just know the short-cut key?

I know the alt-code.
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1

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Re: Duplicate Interstate numbers?
« Reply #64 on: January 19, 2017, 04:04:36 PM »

I have my computer set so that typing 1//2 automatically converts to 1/2. (The reason for the double slash is to prevent false positives when I don't want "1/2" converted.)

Other shortcuts that I set:
Similar codes for other fractions
^^2 for superscript numerals(two "^"s to prevent false positives)
__2 for subscript numerals
d@ → my email
d_ → my school email
<- -> ^| and v| are arrows, like you can see in this post
:ma, :nh, and the other 48 states expand into full state names, as well as some Canadian provinces, and :us, :uk, :au
ot → of the
inr → ₹
And many more

Dashes that are longer than hyphens, pi, infinity, accented letters, , , , and many others can be typed simply by using the option key and do not need shortcuts.
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Clinched:
I-88(NY), I-290(MA), I-291(MA)
MA 125, 129A, 150, 213, 228
NY 96B, 495
NJ 90, 495
NH 97, 150

Interstates traveled: 7⒌8⒈8⒋8⒌8⒎88NY.8⒐90.9⒈9⒊9⒌27⒏28⒌290MA.291MA.29⒊39⒊395DC.395MA/CT.495MA.676

US traveled: ①⓵BYP③④⑤⑥⑪⑬⑲⑳㉓㉗㉙㉚㊶㊿7⒏80.20⒉27⒏30⒈441

kphoger

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Re: Duplicate Interstate numbers?
« Reply #65 on: January 19, 2017, 05:33:23 PM »

I just have the alt-codes for characters I commonly use memorized, plus the general number range of less-commonly used ones. Setting my computer up like that wouldn't solve the problem of typing on another computer, such as at work. So, for example, I know the alt-codes for all lowercase Spanish accented letters, plus several of the uppercase ones, and upside-down punctuation. For the uppercase ones I don't have memorized, I can do trial and error in the general range I know them to be in, usually successful within three tries. En-dashes and em-dashes I use frequently as well, so those are memorized. The degree symbol, common fractions, German es-zed (or however you spell that), a few other German and French characters.

Next on my list to memorize: the division symbol. Every so often, I have to look it up, but I always manage to forget it immediately afterward.
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jp the roadgeek

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Re: Duplicate Interstate numbers?
« Reply #66 on: January 19, 2017, 08:47:04 PM »

It's always been a bit of a mystery to me that in CT and MA there are the two I-291 iterations only about 30-odd miles apart (road mileage on parent I-91).

I agree. I've always thought the 3DI rule should be no repeats in the same state and no repeats if the roads in question are less than 200 miles (or whatever) apart. If this were the rule, there would be, in particular, a whole bunch of 295s to change.

And the 2 I-695's about 40 miles apart in MD and DC
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kurumi

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Re: Duplicate Interstate numbers?
« Reply #67 on: January 19, 2017, 11:38:13 PM »

It's always been a bit of a mystery to me that in CT and MA there are the two I-291 iterations only about 30-odd miles apart (road mileage on parent I-91).  IMO, that's something that should have been addressed 50+ years ago with a phone call between the agencies and another one to AASHTO (conference call, anyone?)...

Or: if they're that close together, connect them with a new freeway west of I-91. It could roughly follow CT/MA 187 and MA 147, serving the Bloomfield office park area, Bradley Airport, and Springfield Suburbs. A single inter-state Interstate 291.
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Rothman

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Re: Duplicate Interstate numbers?
« Reply #68 on: January 20, 2017, 11:45:33 AM »

I grew up in western MA and remember when I-291 opened in Connecticut.  I think the two I-291s were tolerable partly because of the local mindset:  Springfield and Hartford might as well be worlds apart, despite the fact they share BDL.  Kind of hard to mix-up the functions of the two interstates as well.

I'll put it this way:  I know of at least one person who, when headed to DC with directions to take "the Beltway" actually got off on I-695 in Baltimore (I kid you not).  Haven't heard of anyone getting the I-291s mixed up, despite being from the area.
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Bickendan

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Re: Duplicate Interstate numbers?
« Reply #69 on: March 21, 2017, 01:16:12 AM »

I have my computer set so that typing 1//2 automatically converts to 1/2. (The reason for the double slash is to prevent false positives when I don't want "1/2" converted.)

Other shortcuts that I set:
Similar codes for other fractions
^^2 for superscript numerals(two "^"s to prevent false positives)
__2 for subscript numerals
d@ → my email
d_ → my school email
<- -> ^| and v| are arrows, like you can see in this post
:ma, :nh, and the other 48 states expand into full state names, as well as some Canadian provinces, and :us, :uk, :au
ot → of the
inr → ₹
And many more

Dashes that are longer than hyphens, pi, infinity, accented letters, , , , and many others can be typed simply by using the option key and do not need shortcuts.
Oh, hey, a Mac user!
I should look up if setting up these shorthands is simple to do on PC. These are pretty nice shorthands.
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OCGuy81

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Re: Duplicate Interstate numbers?
« Reply #70 on: March 21, 2017, 10:48:23 AM »

Another note about 3di numbering: US Highways generally use the same system, with odd first digits indicating spur routes and even first digits indicating loops, but there are multiple exceptions to this rule:
  • US 163 is nowhere near US 63
  • US 400 implies the existence of US 0, which doesn't actually exist
  • US 412 is nowhere near US 12
  • US 425 is nowhere near US 25
  • US 141 actually reaches US 41 twice: it begins at I-43 in metro Green Bay, WI, then follows a bunch of surface streets before running concurrent with US 41 for 17 miles, then splitting off but then meeting up with it again in the UP near Covington, MI.

But listing every single duplicate 3di would be VERY tedious, and we've already established the four duplicate 2dis also, which in my opinion should either be connected or renumbered.  Number duplication and grid violations are both things I really don't like about the Interstate system as it stands right now, and I also think it's become just a money/political deal now anyway.

I've drifted so far off topic by now that it's probably best I stop here.


And let's not forget I-369 doesn't connect and is nowhere near I-69.    :-D
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AMLNet49

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Re: Duplicate Interstate numbers?
« Reply #71 on: March 21, 2017, 01:37:55 PM »

Look OP in laymen's terms, effectively there are 3 different cases of "duplicated numbers" in the Interstate system.

1) three digit interstates
3DIs can be duplicated out of state. However there are several cases where these rules are skirted and there are "de facto" duplications in-state for a few hundred feet because of technicalities such as spurs multiplexing with parents and other oddities.

2) suffixed interstates
There are a few examples of suffixed interstates where an interstate either splits its mainline, or spurs an important connection to another road or city. These have not been officially sanctioned in thirty years, though new ones are occasionally still created. Currently I-35 has two mainline splits in Texas and Minnesota that both rejoin. During these splits, labeled 35E and 35W, the mainline I-35 goes away. Also in Texas, I-69 is under construction, but the setup will be similar, with a 69E and a 69W branching off. However in this example, the mainline will at first disappear, but then reappear and split the middle of 69E and 69W, with this section labeled C for central. And in Ohio, I-480 has a major two-mile freeway branch to the northeast, called 480N, which isn't shown on guide signs but appears on the road's reassurance/info panels.

3) "split" interstates
These are regional interstates that are mainline (2 digit) interstates, but are far enough away from another regional interstate on the other side of the grid that both can share a number. A great majority of these cases are east-west, with one road in the west or Midwest and one in the east, with one future example of a north-south split. The official ones currently are I-76, I-84, I-86, and I-88, all east-west. I-74 is a "de facto" example, where there will never be a connection between a complete western section, and an under construction, but close to complete, eastern section hundreds of miles away. The intermediary roads will never be built. I-69 may end up suffixed and split if construction of its middle sections stalls. Future examples may be I-66, which would be an east-west split, and I-87, which would be the first north-south split.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 01:41:53 PM by AMLNet49 »
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