Bloomberg: Trump Open to Raising Gas Tax

[AlexandriaVA]

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-05-01/trump-open-to-raising-gas-tax-and-negotiating-tax-overhaul-plan

President Donald Trump said he's willing to raise the U.S. gas tax to fund infrastructure development and called the tax-overhaul plan he released last week the beginning of negotiations.

My guess is that industrial interests (NAM, Chamber of Commerece, truckers, etc) would in theory support a larger gas tax to cover infrastructure. Besides AAA, not sure what organizing force will speak for non-commercial motorists.

[froggie]

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce in the recent past has supported a gas tax increase in order to shore up the Highway Trust Fund.  I don't see that situation changing any.

However, as long as Congress is controlled by today's GOP, it'll never happen.

[UCFKnights]

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce in the recent past has supported a gas tax increase in order to shore up the Highway Trust Fund.  I don't see that situation changing any.

However, as long as Congress is controlled by today's GOP, it'll never happen.

I wouldn't be so sure on that. The GOP is desperate to make it look like they follow through on their promise to lower taxes. With gas prices lower, if the GOP supports a tax increase, which is included in the price of gas so people will have a hard time seeing it and how much it is, it may make it easier to garner support for lowering other, more visible taxes. The GOP also does typically support usage taxes, and while they couldn't when gas prices were high, they can get away with it now... infact, easier than adding tolls which would again be more visible to their constituents

[lordsutch]

Republican majorities in several states (GA and TN, for example) have passed gas tax increases in the past few years, so the idea of it happening at the federal level is not particularly far-fetched, particularly since so far the anti-taxers' bark has been worse than their bite.

However, unlike at the state level, it may be more of a challenge to shore up the federal trust fund long-term for AFVs and EVs - I suppose an annual federal user fee could be created, much like several states have done by tying it to car registrations, but there'd have to be some sort of infrastructure for collecting it nationally.

[sparker]

Republican majorities in several states (GA and TN, for example) have passed gas tax increases in the past few years, so the idea of it happening at the federal level is not particularly far-fetched, particularly since so far the anti-taxers' bark has been worse than their bite.

However, unlike at the state level, it may be more of a challenge to shore up the federal trust fund long-term for AFVs and EVs - I suppose an annual federal user fee could be created, much like several states have done by tying it to car registrations, but there'd have to be some sort of infrastructure for collecting it nationally.

Although both functional halves of the GOP (ideological conservatives, business advocates) tend to be supportive of fees vis-a-vis taxes as "non-progressive" and/or "non-redistributive", the thought of establishing yet another federal agency -- or internal division -- to assemble and monitor data now gathered primarily at the state level is likely anathema to sundry party activists, particularly those concerned with public sector intrusion in private matters.  Unless the administrative end could be simplified (determining exactly which driving or car ownership aspects would work best as a basis for fee assignation) so data already collected by the states would be per se adequate for national purposes -- without having to create a bureau whose sole purpose would be to manipulate said data to achieve some sort of a priori outcome or structure.   An example would be if odometer readings would be used to determine fees (so much per mile driven), the use of the basic raw mileage for this purpose would likely be more amenable for simplicity rather than trying to determine in state/out of state differentiation or other such forms of "micromanagement".

In short, the cost of collecting any such fees nationally may be logistically feasible and politically acceptable if and only if the means to do so are not perceived as obtrusive or "high maintenance".

[lordsutch]

Although both functional halves of the GOP (ideological conservatives, business advocates) tend to be supportive of fees vis-a-vis taxes as "non-progressive" and/or "non-redistributive", the thought of establishing yet another federal agency -- or internal division -- to assemble and monitor data now gathered primarily at the state level is likely anathema to sundry party activists, particularly those concerned with public sector intrusion in private matters.  Unless the administrative end could be simplified (determining exactly which driving or car ownership aspects would work best as a basis for fee assignation) so data already collected by the states would be per se adequate for national purposes -- without having to create a bureau whose sole purpose would be to manipulate said data to achieve some sort of a priori outcome or structure.   An example would be if odometer readings would be used to determine fees (so much per mile driven), the use of the basic raw mileage for this purpose would likely be more amenable for simplicity rather than trying to determine in state/out of state differentiation or other such forms of "micromanagement".

In short, the cost of collecting any such fees nationally may be logistically feasible and politically acceptable if and only if the means to do so are not perceived as obtrusive or "high maintenance".

Thus far, all of the states that have imposed an EV fee have done so at a flat rate - on the order of $100-$200/year, usually substantially more than the state gas tax that would be collected from the average motorist driving a typical sedan. In theory a VMT tax would probably be better but for privacy and logistical reasons, a flat fee is a lot simpler. But regardless of its structure, you still would need some sort of federal administration of it (like other excise taxes), even if it was as basic as giving states a cut of the money for collecting it on behalf of the feds.

[vdeane]

I think I just came up with a way to do a mileage tax without causing privacy or state line issues.  It's simple: the user would report their mileage and send tax to the state at registration renewal (subject to random audits), and the state would send ALL the tax to the federal government.  The money would then be allocated to the states by a formula based on the AADT data for the entire federal aid system (excluding roads that don't receive federal funding, such as toll roads) and the proportion of the tax given that was federal versus additional tax set by the state.  Two pools of money would then be set aside: one that goes straight to the state with no conditions, representing the state tax, and one which would be their federal allotment.

Personally, though, I'd just collect an electricity tax at the charging stations and through a box connected to the car's charging port (which would add any tax from charging at home at the next charging station or when the car's registration is renewed, whichever comes first).

[sparker]

I think I just came up with a way to do a mileage tax without causing privacy or state line issues.  It's simple: the user would report their mileage and send tax to the state at registration renewal (subject to random audits), and the state would send ALL the tax to the federal government.  The money would then be allocated to the states by a formula based on the AADT data for the entire federal aid system (excluding roads that don't receive federal funding, such as toll roads) and the proportion of the tax given that was federal versus additional tax set by the state.  Two pools of money would then be set aside: one that goes straight to the state with no conditions, representing the state tax, and one which would be their federal allotment.

Personally, though, I'd just collect an electricity tax at the charging stations and through a box connected to the car's charging port (which would add any tax from charging at home at the next charging station or when the car's registration is renewed, whichever comes first).

Both very, very good -- and functionally doable -- ideas that unfortunately will likely never see the light of day due to political objections.   First is the concept of initially sending the money to the Feds (that alone will raise eyebrows in certain political/ideological circles) -- it would have to be configured in such a way as to ensure that only a limited amount (zero would ensure opposition from the opposite political faction cited previously!) would be used for transit purposes rather than roads.  The second objection would be the use of AADT data; smaller/rural states might see this as intrinsically placing them at a disadvantage, since even much of their Interstate mileage (I'm thinking of the Dakotas as an example) features lower AADT than many  suburban arterials.  Those states or regions would likely demand some sort of "floor" be established to ensure that they receive some semblance of parity in the federal portion of fund disbursement. 

Any "tax" on charging-station electricity consumption would have to be labeled a "fee" to pass muster in the present political climate.  That being said, IMO one of the optimal ways to collect these "fees" would be to issue a state DMV "credit card" inserted into a reader on the charging stations, whether at home or on the road; the amount of current used for the recharge would be recorded on the card.  When time comes for registration renewal, the card would be read at either the DMV or AAA office (or whoever handles it in one's jurisdiction) and then whatever cumulative fees are applicable would be added to the registration amount.           

[vdeane]

VMT or something else could be substituted for AADT.  The idea is to emulate the relative amount from the gax tax (obviously, if fewer people/miles are driven, less fuel is used, and less tax is collected).  As for the electric tax, I was envisioning that electric charging stations would cease to be free and that it would be added to the price as with gas.

[sparker]

VMT or something else could be substituted for AADT.  The idea is to emulate the relative amount from the gax tax (obviously, if fewer people/miles are driven, less fuel is used, and less tax is collected).  As for the electric tax, I was envisioning that electric charging stations would cease to be free and that it would be added to the price as with gas.

In other words, electric consumption tax would be collected on a pay-as-you-drive basis rather than a yearly accumulated amount payable at re-registration.  I suppose some folks would rather see the proportionally smaller amount collected at the "spigot" rather than a larger lump sum annually.  But if the entity responsible for the charging stations wished to maintain the perception that the charge itself was "free" -- and that using a card or other device to record consumption didn't result in a near-term cost -- then a yearly lump sum might be the alternative -- after all, at that time, one is paying to register the vehicle anyway and is accustomed to laying out $$ for such; the lump sum, while likely not particularly small, would be itself "bundled" with the expected fee.  In that way -- unless the additional fee surpassed the original registration cost (which would probably result in political blowback) -- there would be somewhat less "sticker shock".  Either way would likely work well; it all depends upon how the agency collecting the fee perceives its customer preferences.

[Roadgeekteen]

I'm surprised this has not turned into a shouting, fighting, match and locked.

[MNHighwayMan]

We don't talk about politics because the mods beat us repeatedly with belts and jumper cables if we do.

Ehrm, I mean we're all responsible, intelligent people who would never do such a thing.

[froggie]

val's proposal is one I've thought of for several years...but one other problem besides what sparker brought up is that of odometer tampering.

[kalvado]

VMT or something else could be substituted for AADT.  The idea is to emulate the relative amount from the gax tax (obviously, if fewer people/miles are driven, less fuel is used, and less tax is collected).  As for the electric tax, I was envisioning that electric charging stations would cease to be free and that it would be added to the price as with gas.

In other words, electric consumption tax would be collected on a pay-as-you-drive basis rather than a yearly accumulated amount payable at re-registration.  I suppose some folks would rather see the proportionally smaller amount collected at the "spigot" rather than a larger lump sum annually.  But if the entity responsible for the charging stations wished to maintain the perception that the charge itself was "free" -- and that using a card or other device to record consumption didn't result in a near-term cost -- then a yearly lump sum might be the alternative -- after all, at that time, one is paying to register the vehicle anyway and is accustomed to laying out $$ for such; the lump sum, while likely not particularly small, would be itself "bundled" with the expected fee.  In that way -- unless the additional fee surpassed the original registration cost (which would probably result in political blowback) -- there would be somewhat less "sticker shock".  Either way would likely work well; it all depends upon how the agency collecting the fee perceives its customer preferences.

One big issue here is that default charging situation is from home power line. And enforcing charges over there is more difficult, if tax is not implemented on vehicle side...

[vdeane]

My preferred idea also included a box that would meter the amount coming from the home line, to be paid if the car was taken to a charging station or when the registration is renewed.  In any case, I would expect that charging stations would have to become a greater proportion of charging if electric cars are to be used by people who aren't homeowners.  How is someone in an apartment complex supposed to charge their car?

Odometer tampering is hardly unique to my first idea; every mileage-based scheme that doesn't use GPS tracking has that issue.

[kalvado]

My preferred idea also included a box that would meter the amount coming from the home line, to be paid if the car was taken to a charging station or when the registration is renewed.  In any case, I would expect that charging stations would have to become a greater proportion of charging if electric cars are to be used by people who aren't homeowners.  How is someone in an apartment complex supposed to charge their car?

Odometer tampering is hardly unique to my first idea; every mileage-based scheme that doesn't use GPS tracking has that issue.

I don't think you can implement that "box" without integrating it into primary car computer/charging system. Is that doable for cars already on the road? Would manufacturer cooperate nicely? And we're talking 50 state agencies and 100+ national agencies all over the world. That may be an issue until some standards are set..

[vdeane]

Good question, though electric cars are currently so niche that the existing ones might not be an issue if one starts soon.  As for manufacturers, I presume that a similar mechanism to the one the federal government uses to require things like backup cameras and lower emissions would be the key.

[kalvado]

Good question, though electric cars are currently so niche that the existing ones might not be an issue if one starts soon.  As for manufacturers, I presume that a similar mechanism to the one the federal government uses to require things like backup cameras and lower emissions would be the key.

5 year implementation window, you mean? That would make it a _real_ problem..
Although with the way everything is computer controlled in electric cars, I don't think any of those would be a technical issue. More like a software update. Hoever  Legal issues- oh well.. Just think that different localities have different gas taxation rates..