Crash prone 'modern roundabouts'

[english si]

Well, one - and possibly most important in the context - difference I can see is that no lanes are marked within roundabout.

Other than the 'smaller' Swindon one, sure. Though that's, in part due to the small sample - some do (eg), other's don't and I just found two that don't. Not having markings is more typical, but markings are far from rare.

Confusing markings aren't good (the UK only spiralises if it signalises as it's formal allocation of lanes confuses us and creates panic), but in the US, I'd argue that the misleading markings aren't the problem, but a symptom: of the "don't signal" dogma problem.

And the one you marked as a smaller one is the normal size over here

The ones I randomly picked just happened to be big ones - in part as they are easier to see on the map. Smaller was comparative with the other two linked (again, same problem of picking one at random off a map zoomed out). The ones on the dumbell you linked would be seen as mid-sized here - and this would be a roundabout that's smaller than average in the UK (though a common size).

[lordsutch]

While lordsutch's point about Oceanian roundabouts being more like US ones than British ones is a good one - though these rules don't disagree with the NZ or NSW ones posted above wrt straight on traffic (and I doubt they will much at all with the whole lot) - lets refresh on the rules of the second-lowest (half the rate of the US, despite being infested with roundabouts) road fatalities per distance stats. ...

None of these are exemplary, but they do they job. I'd argue that the key issue in the US isn't design or geometry or whatever, but driver miseducation: the Aus/NZ stuff that lordsutch brought in (and brought up that UK roundabouts are slightly different) still seem to follow the same rules of the road, despite their different design.

Small correction: the Australia and New Zealand examples were brought up by jakeroot, not me.

[tradephoric]

More roundabout rules for Indiana drivers.  Most modern roundabouts do have truck aprons but they serve no purpose for trucks navigating the outer lane of a multi-lane roundabout.  In that instance, their trailer is going to encroach on the adjacent lane of traffic and potentially cause a sideswipe crash. 

Indiana lawmakers move to re-write roundabout rules

Some big rigs–as in semi-trucks–are having big problems getting through roundabouts. The proposed solution calls for giving tractor trailer trucks indisputable right of way rights in roundabouts.

According to the Indiana State Police there were 92 accidents involving semi-trucks in roundabouts in 2016 and only one produced personal injury. Those in support of HB1039 suggest that the rest were the kind of minor fender benders that are becoming more and more common.

http://www.wndu.com/content/news/semis-Passenger-vehicles-could-take-a-back-seat-in-Indiana-roundabout-rules-rewrite-415615193.html

[jeffandnicole]

While lordsutch's point about Oceanian roundabouts being more like US ones than British ones is a good one - though these rules don't disagree with the NZ or NSW ones posted above wrt straight on traffic (and I doubt they will much at all with the whole lot) - lets refresh on the rules of the second-lowest (half the rate of the US, despite being infested with roundabouts) road fatalities per distance stats.

Rule 184
On approaching a roundabout take notice and act on all the information available to you, including traffic signs, traffic lights and lane markings which direct you into the correct lane. You should

• use Mirrors — Signal — Manoeuvre at all stages
  decide as early as possible which exit you need to take
• give an appropriate signal (see Rule 186, below). Time your signals so as not to confuse other road users
• get into the correct lane
• adjust your speed and position to fit in with traffic conditions
• be aware of the speed and position of all the road users around you.

Rule 185
When reaching the roundabout you should

• give priority to traffic approaching from your right, unless directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights
• check whether road markings allow you to enter the roundabout without giving way. If so, proceed, but still look to the right before joining
• watch out for all other road users already on the roundabout; be aware they may not be signalling correctly or at all
• look forward before moving off to make sure traffic in front has moved off.

Rule 185: Follow the correct procedure at roundabouts

Rule 186
Signals and position. When taking the first exit to the left, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

• signal left and approach in the left-hand lane
• keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.

When taking an exit to the right or going full circle, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

• signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
• keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
• signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

When taking any intermediate exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

• select the appropriate lane on approach to and on the roundabout
• you should not normally need to signal on approach
• stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout
• signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

When there are more than three lanes at the entrance to a roundabout, use the most appropriate lane on approach and through it.

Rule 187
In all cases watch out for and give plenty of room to

• pedestrians who may be crossing the approach and exit roads
• traffic crossing in front of you on the roundabout, especially vehicles intending to leave by the next exit
• traffic which may be straddling lanes or positioned incorrectly
• motorcyclists
• cyclists and horse riders who may stay in the left-hand lane and signal right if they intend to continue round the roundabout. Allow them to do so
• long vehicles (including those towing trailers). These might have to take a different course or straddle lanes either approaching or on the roundabout because of their length. Watch out for their signals.

I make that 32 times it says signal. The real roundabout experts are clear: Joe Gustafson is a dangerous quack who doesn't deserve to be considered a roundabout expert.

And it looks like we're talking about somewhat different things here. It was mentioned that UK has somewhat different design.
So, if you don't mind - can you show some exemplary UK roundabout on a map? Not biggest and greatest, but regular ones with best possible design from your perspective?.

The artists impression in the above picture is a perfectly typical UK roundabout design. This one picked at random might not be best possible design, but it is perfectly acceptable roundabout. Have another random one, this time a county council one. The speed limit on all the arms is 60mph (hence the different surface on approach). How about a smaller one - this one (again somewhat randomly picked) is more US in feel nowadays, with non-circulatory lane markings and such like (the aerial view and the more-recent streetview are different: the red area is gone) - but the same rules of signalling are involved.

None of these are exemplary, but they do they job. I'd argue that the key issue in the US isn't design or geometry or whatever, but driver miseducation: the Aus/NZ stuff that lordsutch brought in (and brought up that UK roundabouts are slightly different) still seem to follow the same rules of the road, despite their different design.

The picture is more like a Jersey Traffic Circle, where there can be multiple lanes entering a circle, but no lane markings within the circle.

However, Jersey traffic circles don't have anywhere near the number of rules posted here.  In fact, there aren't really any rules!  Basic guidelines apply...if there's a yield sign, you have to yield, etc.  But otherwise there aren't any official rules for Jersey traffic circles!

[kalvado]

The picture is more like a Jersey Traffic Circle, where there can be multiple lanes entering a circle, but no lane markings within the circle.

However, Jersey traffic circles don't have anywhere near the number of rules posted here.  In fact, there aren't really any rules!  Basic guidelines apply...if there's a yield sign, you have to yield, etc.  But otherwise there aren't any official rules for Jersey traffic circles!

Well, I guess ongoing confusion of traffic circle vs modern roundabout is also part of it.
My impression is that roundabout should be able to handle more traffic than circle - although not as much as some planner think it should.

[kphoger]

My impression is that roundabout should be able to handle more traffic than circle - although not as much as some planner think it should.

I don't actually recall having read that claim about modern roundabouts, but that's certainly not to say it hasn't been claimed.  All I've read claimed in modern roundabout versus larger traffic circle has been about safety.

[jeffandnicole]

The picture is more like a Jersey Traffic Circle, where there can be multiple lanes entering a circle, but no lane markings within the circle.

However, Jersey traffic circles don't have anywhere near the number of rules posted here.  In fact, there aren't really any rules!  Basic guidelines apply...if there's a yield sign, you have to yield, etc.  But otherwise there aren't any official rules for Jersey traffic circles!

Well, I guess ongoing confusion of traffic circle vs modern roundabout is also part of it.
My impression is that roundabout should be able to handle more traffic than circle - although not as much as some planner think it should.

I think it's been said a roundabout should be able to handle more traffic than a standard intersection.  Circles are rare so there's very little to compare with.

[kalvado]

The picture is more like a Jersey Traffic Circle, where there can be multiple lanes entering a circle, but no lane markings within the circle.

However, Jersey traffic circles don't have anywhere near the number of rules posted here.  In fact, there aren't really any rules!  Basic guidelines apply...if there's a yield sign, you have to yield, etc.  But otherwise there aren't any official rules for Jersey traffic circles!

Well, I guess ongoing confusion of traffic circle vs modern roundabout is also part of it.
My impression is that roundabout should be able to handle more traffic than circle - although not as much as some planner think it should.

I think it's been said a roundabout should be able to handle more traffic than a standard intersection.  Circles are rare so there's very little to compare with.

There is a distinction between it's been said they should be able and they are. I can throw word safely into the mix to make things worse.
As for circles, per our UK friend there should be an ample stash of data overseas..

[tradephoric]

A bunch of triple-lane roundabouts are opening to traffic along Franklin Blvd in Cambridge, Ontario.  Based on the performance of other roundabouts in the region i doubt these will work out too well.  But i just love Marilyn Gummerson honesty lol

"I hate them.  They're useless.  Most people do not even know how to use a roundabout properly... me included".

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/mixed-reviews-in-early-days-of-franklin-boulevard-roundabouts-1.3065887

Data is now coming in for the roundabouts on Franklin Boulevard.  The triple lane roundabout at Franklin Blvd and Pinebush has had 49 accidents in the first 3 months of operations.  Compare that to the accident prone Homer Watson & Block Line Road roundabout which had 34 accidents in the first 3 months of operations when it opened back in 2011. 

Crashes plague Cambridge's biggest roundabout

CAMBRIDGE – Cambridge's biggest roundabout opened to 49 fender-benders in its first three months. That's far more collisions than the launch of a notorious Kitchener roundabout that's since become the most dangerous road in the region.

The Pinebush traffic circle opened Sept, 14, 2016. An analysis by The Record reveals 49 collisions in 109 days through Dec. 31, 2016.

This compares to 34 collisions between Sept. 14 and Dec. 31, 2011, during the launch of the troubled roundabout at Homer Watson Boulevard and Block Line Road in Kitchener.

The Homer Watson roundabout has defeated tweaks meant to make it safer, including changes to speed limits, lanes, paint, and signs. It's now rated the region's most dangerous road, requiring crossing guards to help St. Mary's High School students get across it. Planners contend the problem is not its design, but older drivers who don't know how to yield.

The Pinebush circle opened with three lanes like the Homer Watson roundabout. Planners later dropped the third lane at Homer Watson, concerned it's too confusing.
http://www.therecord.com/news-story/7186456-crashes-plague-cambridge-s-biggest-roundabout/

[doorknob60]

In my drivers ed course in Bend, OR (a place pretty familiar with roundabouts, to say the least), we were taught to always signal right before exiting the roundabout. If you're turning right, you can signal before entering. Left signal should not be used (as was taught; a lot of people like my Dad left signaled to indicate he wasn't exiting which in my opinion is okay, but we were taught it wasn't necessary so I stick with that), and you should never not signal an exit.

[Rothman]

One problem with that rule is when the inside lane also can exit the roundabout.  So, if you turn on your signal, people may think you're moving over!

[tradephoric]

According to a recently published Detroit Free Press article, the roundabout at 14 Mile and Orchard Lake had the highest number of accidents in Michigan in 2016.  There were 163 total crashes at the roundabout including 27 injury crashes.  This is the third consecutive year where a roundabout has earned the title for the most crash-prone intersection in Michigan. 

14-Orchard roundabout is tops for accidents, but is it really dangerous?
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2017/04/04/orchard-roundabout-tops-accidents-really-dangerous/100046220/

[jakeroot]

^^ I don't see the significance of a high number of collisions. If no one is seriously hurt or killed, it's a win. According to the article, there weren't any at this roundabout (and only 16% of collisions even resulted in injuries).

[tradephoric]

Take a look at the pre-roundabout crash data for 14 Mile and Orchard Lake (roundabout constructed in 2015).  From 2011-2014 the intersection averaged 49 total crashes and 9.5 injury crashes.  In the first year of operations, the roundabout has seen a 232% increase in total crashes (from 49 to 163) and a 184% increase in injury crashes (from 9.5 to 27).


http://semcog.org/Data-and-Maps/High-Frequency-Crash-Locations/Point_Id/63052513/view/RoadIntersectionCrashDetail

[cjw2001]

Carmel to require turn signals in roundabouts

Ever get frustrated trying to figure out when vehicles will exit a roundabout?

The Carmel City Council will consider an ordinance Monday to require people to use their turn signals to make it clear. Scofflaws will face a $100 fine.

"This is standard in countries with many roundabouts and allows a driver waiting to enter a roundabout to know whether a circulating car is going to cross in front or turn out of the circle," said Mayor Jim Brainard. "It will speed up our roundabouts and make them more efficient."

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/hamilton-county/2017/03/06/carmel-require-turn-signals-roundabouts/98686674/

There are roundabout experts who say drivers shouldn't signal when exiting a roundabout.  In a roundabout webinar hosted by the University of Minnesota, Joe Gustafson from Washington County stated the following:

"We also would never tell a driver to use a right turn signal to exit a roundabout.  Again, that's a through movement and we don't want to create the impression that it's a right turn."  



Here's an aerial of the new Rangeline Road and Carmel Drive roundabout.  Should the driver in the yellow path be required to signal when exiting the roundabout?  At no point do the pavement markings or signage indicate the driver is making a right turn.  There's a straight arrow inside the roundabout.  It doesn't make sense to require drivers to use their right turn signal indication as they are driving overtop a "straight only"  arrow.  It is confusing.

Logic won the battle:  http://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/hamilton-county/2017/04/17/carmel-nix-idea-turn-signals-roundabouts/100457422/

[kalvado]

Carmel to require turn signals in roundabouts

Ever get frustrated trying to figure out when vehicles will exit a roundabout?

The Carmel City Council will consider an ordinance Monday to require people to use their turn signals to make it clear. Scofflaws will face a $100 fine.

"This is standard in countries with many roundabouts and allows a driver waiting to enter a roundabout to know whether a circulating car is going to cross in front or turn out of the circle," said Mayor Jim Brainard. "It will speed up our roundabouts and make them more efficient."

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/hamilton-county/2017/03/06/carmel-require-turn-signals-roundabouts/98686674/

There are roundabout experts who say drivers shouldn't signal when exiting a roundabout.  In a roundabout webinar hosted by the University of Minnesota, Joe Gustafson from Washington County stated the following:

"We also would never tell a driver to use a right turn signal to exit a roundabout.  Again, that's a through movement and we don't want to create the impression that it's a right turn."  



Here's an aerial of the new Rangeline Road and Carmel Drive roundabout.  Should the driver in the yellow path be required to signal when exiting the roundabout?  At no point do the pavement markings or signage indicate the driver is making a right turn.  There's a straight arrow inside the roundabout.  It doesn't make sense to require drivers to use their right turn signal indication as they are driving overtop a "straight only"  arrow.  It is confusing.

Logic won the battle:  http://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/hamilton-county/2017/04/17/carmel-nix-idea-turn-signals-roundabouts/100457422/

Not yet. Logic would win when those roundabouts finally get bulldozed out of misery.

[cjw2001]

Carmel to require turn signals in roundabouts

Ever get frustrated trying to figure out when vehicles will exit a roundabout?

The Carmel City Council will consider an ordinance Monday to require people to use their turn signals to make it clear. Scofflaws will face a $100 fine.

"This is standard in countries with many roundabouts and allows a driver waiting to enter a roundabout to know whether a circulating car is going to cross in front or turn out of the circle," said Mayor Jim Brainard. "It will speed up our roundabouts and make them more efficient."

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/hamilton-county/2017/03/06/carmel-require-turn-signals-roundabouts/98686674/

There are roundabout experts who say drivers shouldn't signal when exiting a roundabout.  In a roundabout webinar hosted by the University of Minnesota, Joe Gustafson from Washington County stated the following:

"We also would never tell a driver to use a right turn signal to exit a roundabout.  Again, that's a through movement and we don't want to create the impression that it's a right turn."  



Here's an aerial of the new Rangeline Road and Carmel Drive roundabout.  Should the driver in the yellow path be required to signal when exiting the roundabout?  At no point do the pavement markings or signage indicate the driver is making a right turn.  There's a straight arrow inside the roundabout.  It doesn't make sense to require drivers to use their right turn signal indication as they are driving overtop a "straight only"  arrow.  It is confusing.

Logic won the battle:  http://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/hamilton-county/2017/04/17/carmel-nix-idea-turn-signals-roundabouts/100457422/

Not yet. Logic would win when those roundabouts finally get bulldozed out of misery.

Nobody in misery here.   We enjoy being able to travel without unneeded backups from obsolete traffic lights and 4 way stops.

[tradephoric]

Nobody in misery here.   We enjoy being able to travel without unneeded backups from obsolete traffic lights and 4 way stops.

CJW2001, here's a challenge for you.  Take a video driving 20 miles through the roundabouts of Carmel and let's see how long it takes you.  Here's a 20 mile drive through the traffic lights of Detroit (averaged 46 mph over 20 miles).  Just imagine if every traffic signal in the video was a roundabout and how much longer it would take to drive. 

[tdindy88]

There are no roads in Carmel that could compare to Woodward Avenue. There is simply no comparison, people are not traveling through Carmel like they would on some of the long boulevards of Detroit with Michigan lefts. And while I am personally one to think that the roundabouts planned for 96th Street between Keystone and the White River are a bad idea I do know that roundabouts do work if they are placed properly. I live near one of the few roundabouts in Indianapolis proper, Edgewood Avenue and Gray Road. A former four-way stop sign on two two-lane roads was reconstructed as a one-lane roundabout and it has done wonders for the traffic there. I used to remember backups of 15+ cars at rush hour in various directions approaching the stop sign intersection. Those are now a thing of the past. But as I see it, the roundabout was perfect in THIS location. It functions well for the two class of roads it serves.

[kalvado]

There are no roads in Carmel that could compare to Woodward Avenue. There is simply no comparison, people are not traveling through Carmel like they would on some of the long boulevards of Detroit with Michigan lefts. And while I am personally one to think that the roundabouts planned for 96th Street between Keystone and the White River are a bad idea I do know that roundabouts do work if they are placed properly. I live near one of the few roundabouts in Indianapolis proper, Edgewood Avenue and Gray Road. A former four-way stop sign on two two-lane roads was reconstructed as a one-lane roundabout and it has done wonders for the traffic there. I used to remember backups of 15+ cars at rush hour in various directions approaching the stop sign intersection. Those are now a thing of the past. But as I see it, the roundabout was perfect in THIS location. It functions well for the two class of roads it serves.

That is the point - roundabouts are NOT universal solution, as they are being sold. And looks like nobody knows - and nobody WANTS to know - what is the proper niche for them. Just sign those damn checks!

[cjw2001]

No one is saying that roundabouts are a universal solution, but you seem to be saying that all roundabouts are intrinsically evil.

Take a look at this route https://www.google.com/maps/dir/39.9232311,-86.1121404/40.0648746,-86.1262864/@39.9712591,-86.0688241,12.25z going from 96th and Keystone Parkway northward through Carmel and on through Westfield.    Almost every interchange along this route has roundabout intersections, but the through traffic passes under or over the roundabouts.   This is intelligent usage of roundabouts.

[jakeroot]

There are no roads in Carmel that could compare to Woodward Avenue. There is simply no comparison, people are not traveling through Carmel like they would on some of the long boulevards of Detroit with Michigan lefts. And while I am personally one to think that the roundabouts planned for 96th Street between Keystone and the White River are a bad idea I do know that roundabouts do work if they are placed properly. I live near one of the few roundabouts in Indianapolis proper, Edgewood Avenue and Gray Road. A former four-way stop sign on two two-lane roads was reconstructed as a one-lane roundabout and it has done wonders for the traffic there. I used to remember backups of 15+ cars at rush hour in various directions approaching the stop sign intersection. Those are now a thing of the past. But as I see it, the roundabout was perfect in THIS location. It functions well for the two class of roads it serves.

That is the point - roundabouts are NOT universal solution, as they are being sold. And looks like nobody knows - and nobody WANTS to know - what is the proper niche for them. Just sign those damn checks!

Michigan lefts are also not a universal solution. They require gigantic ROW throughout the length of the route. At least roundabouts only require wide ROW at junctions.

[kalvado]

No one is saying that roundabouts are a universal solution, but you seem to be saying that all roundabouts are intrinsically evil.

I am saying that thoughtless design of anything is evil.  Most, if not all, roundabouts I see around do fall into that category. 

[cjw2001]

Carmel does a far better job on their roundabout design than most places.   Having lived here in the pre roundabout era and the post roundabout era I can say that traffic is far far better today than in the past.   There are another 30 roundabouts on the way  and very much looking forward to it.  http://carmellink.com/

[jakeroot]

No one is saying that roundabouts are a universal solution, but you seem to be saying that all roundabouts are intrinsically evil.

I am saying that thoughtless design of anything is evil.  Most, if not all, roundabouts I see around do fall into that category.

Not really thoughtless design. Most (all?) are designed to MUTCD standards. Never mind that no comprehensive studies have ever come out that steadfastly show multi-lane roundabouts to be not-as-great as we previously thought. There have been seminars, small studies, presentations, etc that have presented the idea of multi-lane roundabouts having more than their fair share of collisions, but there's never been anything thorough before.

I understand that the FHWA based a lot of current roundabout rhetoric off old, small studies. But trying to refute those studies with an equally small study doesn't prove anything (except that small studies can often be engineered to reflect the desired outcome of the author).