Something weird that I've noticed in Missouri

[Gnutella]

I just got back from a road trip to St. Louis, and I've been to Missouri several times before, but one thing I've long noticed is that MoDOT is very inconsistent with the materials they use to construct highways. Several segments of highway in Missouri have asphalt lanes in one direction and concrete lanes in the other. The highways in St. Louis often have both asphalt and concrete lanes in the same direction, and I imagine it's similar in Kansas City as well. I remember driving on a segment of I-70 in St. Louis with four lanes in each direction, where the inner-most and outer-most lanes were concrete, and the two middle lanes were asphalt. Either go all concrete or all asphalt. MoDOT seems to do concrete consistently well, but doesn't do asphalt as consistently. One thing I've noticed about Missouri asphalt is that the rocks in the asphalt look huge compared to other states. Must be rocks from the riverbeds or something.

[Darkchylde]

Actually, you don't see that in and around KC, except for temporary construction in work zones. The asphalt's also a little better on this side of the state.

As for the mismatched twinnings, that's probably exactly that. One section done first with one material, then the road's twinned later with a different one. Again, that's not seen as much near KC, as well as in the southern part of the state.

[Revive 755]

I remember driving on a segment of I-70 in St. Louis with four lanes in each direction, where the inner-most and outer-most lanes were concrete, and the two middle lanes were asphalt. Either go all concrete or all asphalt.

Why?  Better to have mismatched pavement with more flexibility in construction than spending more of scarce funds to keep the roadway one type.  If concrete is much cheaper than asphalt at the time of the lane addition, concrete should be considered over asphalt.

Many of the lane additions may have come after the originally concrete lanes were overlaid with asphalt.

[codyg1985]

As for the aggregate in the asphalt, it is probably a MoDOT specification that requires the contractor to use a specific gradation to improve performance, permeability, or the right balance between the two.

[cappicard]

Actually, you don't see that in and around KC, except for temporary construction in work zones. The asphalt's also a little better on this side of the state.

As for the mismatched twinnings, that's probably exactly that. One section done first with one material, then the road's twinned later with a different one. Again, that's not seen as much near KC, as well as in the southern part of the state.

435 changed materials at State Line Road.

A running gag in KC is how can you tell if you crossed the state line, by looking at the roads.

[Darkchylde]

Actually, you don't see that in and around KC, except for temporary construction in work zones. The asphalt's also a little better on this side of the state.

As for the mismatched twinnings, that's probably exactly that. One section done first with one material, then the road's twinned later with a different one. Again, that's not seen as much near KC, as well as in the southern part of the state.

435 changed materials at State Line Road.

A running gag in KC is how can you tell if you crossed the state line, by looking at the roads.

Not what Gnutella was talking about, though. Road surfacing often changes conditions/materials at state lines, that's nothing special. What he was going on about are roads that are literally part one material, part another, partitioned by lane.

[cappicard]

Actually, you don't see that in and around KC, except for temporary construction in work zones. The asphalt's also a little better on this side of the state.

As for the mismatched twinnings, that's probably exactly that. One section done first with one material, then the road's twinned later with a different one. Again, that's not seen as much near KC, as well as in the southern part of the state.

435 changed materials at State Line Road.

A running gag in KC is how can you tell if you crossed the state line, by looking at the roads.

Not what Gnutella was talking about, though. Road surfacing often changes conditions/materials at state lines, that's nothing special. What he was going on about are roads that are literally part one material, part another, partitioned by lane.

Oh ok. My bad.

That's frequent on I-635, especially when K-5 shares pavement. And in places on I-70 throughout KCK and KCMO.

[cappicard]

This is prominent within the Johnson County Gateway right now.


iPhone

[roadman65]

Hey come to New Jersey.  I am sure you can find parts of US 22 that still have one side of the road concrete and the other asphalt besides between I-287 and the US 202/206 interchange.

At one time the whole section of US 202 from the Somerville Circle to the Flemington Circle, a distance of over 12 miles, was concrete on the southbound side and asphalt on the northbound side.

Nothing unusual to see that.  In fact go to Virginia and you will see one side of the road graded level while the other side of the road is follows the topography of the land like a glove.  Having a split one side of a freeway is nothing compared to the mix use of grades.

[US71]

Arkansas has a lot of state highways that go from asphalt to chip seal, then back to asphalt

[skluth]

Arkansas has a lot of state highways that go from asphalt to chip seal, then back to asphalt

You all are missing the point. Missouri has roads where three lanes may be asphalt while the lane closest to the median is concrete with all lanes going the same direction. You may even see this on both sides of the highway. It's very common in the St Louis metro area.

[ChiMilNet]

Arkansas has a lot of state highways that go from asphalt to chip seal, then back to asphalt

You all are missing the point. Missouri has roads where three lanes may be asphalt while the lane closest to the median is concrete with all lanes going the same direction. You may even see this on both sides of the highway. It's very common in the St Louis metro area.

Missouri does do that a lot when they are adding lanes to an expressway. Actually, it's common for them, when adding lanes, to not even repave the existing lanes, but go straight ahead and just build the new pavement adjacent. I'd say it's a mixed bag there.

[Tom958]

A picture's worth a thousand words, lol.

[SteveG1988]

That last one screams converted median/shoulder

[cappicard]

A picture's worth a thousand words, lol.

Wow...

[roadman65]

I noticed something weird myself on I-70 going EB from Kansas City.  None of the mileage signs state St. Louis on them, but use Columbia instead.  Then it gets weirder, as at one point Columbia disappears altogether at about 30 or so miles out.  After that places like Wentzville and other intermediate places appear on signs, but still no St. Louis.  Its like St. Louis is only used in Kansas City for I-70 on the freeway signs and that is the extent of it.

I have no problem using Columbia as it is a well known college town in the center of the state, but add St. Louis  to the mileage signs at least.  Then do not remove Columbia until you almost get there, not over a half hour prior.

Then Tulsa on I-44 from St. Louis and especially from I-70 when most motorists exiting now at the new I-44 extension are not going there at all!  Most motorists heading from EB I-70 to WB I-44 are most likely heading to Cape Girardeau or Memphis via I-55 and yet "Tulsa" is there.  Then, according to Alex at 250 miles out from Tulsa, all signage disappears for Tulsa and now its for Springfield.

I think the Show Me State needs to be shown consistency on using control cities.

[tdindy88]

At least EB I-44 is more consistent in letting you know that it's control cities are Springfield and then Rolla and then St. Louis with the latter mentioned only a few times until you reach Rolla.

[skluth]

I noticed something weird myself on I-70 going EB from Kansas City.  None of the mileage signs state St. Louis on them, but use Columbia instead.  Then it gets weirder, as at one point Columbia disappears altogether at about 30 or so miles out.  After that places like Wentzville and other intermediate places appear on signs, but still no St. Louis.  Its like St. Louis is only used in Kansas City for I-70 on the freeway signs and that is the extent of it.

I have no problem using Columbia as it is a well known college town in the center of the state, but add St. Louis  to the mileage signs at least.  Then do not remove Columbia until you almost get there, not over a half hour prior.

Then Tulsa on I-44 from St. Louis and especially from I-70 when most motorists exiting now at the new I-44 extension are not going there at all!  Most motorists heading from EB I-70 to WB I-44 are most likely heading to Cape Girardeau or Memphis via I-55 and yet "Tulsa" is there.  Then, according to Alex at 250 miles out from Tulsa, all signage disappears for Tulsa and now its for Springfield.

I think the Show Me State needs to be shown consistency on using control cities.

Wentzville makes sense as I-64 starts there and both 64 and 70 go into St Louis. Motorists are just as likely to be going to Rolla as Cape on the downtown St Louis; Traffic from I-70 to I-55 is more likely to bypass the city on I-270 (and most likely via I-64 through Chesterfield). Anyone using the Depressed Lanes, the I-44 section by the Arch, is probably coming from points north and east. Don't mistake what is useful for you as useful for everybody.

[Scott5114]

To be fair, how many people know where, exactly, Rolla is? And Springfield, otherwise an excellent choice of control city, might be confused with Springfield IL in the opposite direction, meaning that you would be in the awkward position of signing a city with a state abbreviation in its own state. Easier to just sign Tulsa, which everyone has heard of, and be done with it.

[Revive 755]

Wentzville makes sense as I-64 starts there and both 64 and 70 go into St Louis.

Can't say I'm entirely a fan of having WB US 40 in the St. Louis region only use Wentzville as a control city.  I'd rather see WB US 40 use both Wentzville and Kansas City at major junctions such as I-270 since using US 40 is more direct than continuing north on I-270 to I-70 (where Kansas City is used as the control city for WB).

[Scott5114]

After passing Rolla you get Springfield, which is probably better-known than Joplin (half the time when I text people in Oklahoma City when I'm on a trip and stopping in Joplin and mention where I am, I'll get "Where's that?") and is the third-largest city in the state. It could be signed as far out as St Louis were it not for the confusion with Springfield IL on NB I-55 (which is, of course, not signed either, in favor of Chicago).

Most people in Tulsa looking for OKC will want the Interstate option. Timewise it may be more or less equal, but driving through downtown Sapulpa, Bristow, Chandler, and such feels slower. Sapulpa may be a strange choice of control city, but it's reasonably clear that taking that exit will "really" bring you through Sapulpa and the turnpike is more of a bypass. Having them both signed for OKC would be fairly strange too, like how I-35 exit 113 for US-77 used to list "Norman" as the control city on both the exit and the pull-thru (the exit itself being around 1½ miles within Norman city limits). That leads to speculation as to whether both roads end up in the same place (in both cases, they do, but it's quite a ways down the road; I-35 SB won't see a direct interchange with US-77 again for 62 miles).

[DJStephens]

Hey come to New Jersey.  I am sure you can find parts of US 22 that still have one side of the road concrete and the other asphalt besides between I-287 and the US 202/206 interchange.

At one time the whole section of US 202 from the Somerville Circle to the Flemington Circle, a distance of over 12 miles, was concrete on the southbound side and asphalt on the northbound side.

Nothing unusual to see that.  In fact go to Virginia and you will see one side of the road graded level while the other side of the road is follows the topography of the land like a glove.  Having a split one side of a freeway is nothing compared to the mix use of grades.

Mix use of grades is a result of building a "modern" alignment alongside a possibly pre WWII pre-e xisting roadway.  Very visible on Interstate 10, east of Tucson, where when I-10 was built, the westbound lanes were constructed circa 1970, while the eastbound lanes were pre-existing US 80.  Was most likely deemed not necessary to switch traffic over to new lanes and rebuild older "roller coaster".   Meaning deepen cuts and add to fills, which would have improved vertical sight lines.   

[Gnutella]

I noticed something weird myself on I-70 going EB from Kansas City.  None of the mileage signs state St. Louis on them, but use Columbia instead.  Then it gets weirder, as at one point Columbia disappears altogether at about 30 or so miles out.  After that places like Wentzville and other intermediate places appear on signs, but still no St. Louis.  Its like St. Louis is only used in Kansas City for I-70 on the freeway signs and that is the extent of it.

I have no problem using Columbia as it is a well known college town in the center of the state, but add St. Louis  to the mileage signs at least.  Then do not remove Columbia until you almost get there, not over a half hour prior.

Then Tulsa on I-44 from St. Louis and especially from I-70 when most motorists exiting now at the new I-44 extension are not going there at all!  Most motorists heading from EB I-70 to WB I-44 are most likely heading to Cape Girardeau or Memphis via I-55 and yet "Tulsa" is there.  Then, according to Alex at 250 miles out from Tulsa, all signage disappears for Tulsa and now its for Springfield.

I think the Show Me State needs to be shown consistency on using control cities.

Stuff like this is why I'm increasingly in favor of having dual control cities. An example of what I have in mind:


I-70 EB

Between the Kansas state line and downtown Kansas City: Downtown Kansas City
Between downtown Kansas City and Independence: Independence | St. Louis
Between Independence and Columbia: Columbia | St. Louis
Between Columbia and St. Louis: St. Louis
Between downtown St. Louis and the Illinois state line: East St. Louis | Louisville


I-70 WB

Between the Illinois state line and downtown St. Louis: Downtown St. Louis
Between downtown St. Louis and Wentzville: Wentzville | Kansas City
Between Wentzville and Columbia: Columbia | Kansas City
Between Columbia and downtown Kansas City: Kansas City
Between downtown Kansas City and the Kansas state line: Topeka | Denver


I-44 EB

Between the Oklahoma state line and Joplin: Joplin | St. Louis
Between Joplin and Springfield: Springfield | St. Louis
Between Springfield and Ft. Leonard Wood: Ft. Leonard Wood | St. Louis
Between Ft. Leonard Wood and Rolla: Rolla | St. Louis
Between Rolla and downtown St. Louis: St. Louis


I-44 WB

Between downtown St. Louis and Wildwood: Wildwood | Tulsa
Between Wildwood and Rolla: Rolla | Tulsa
Between Rolla and Ft. Leonard Wood: Ft. Leonard Wood | Tulsa
Between Ft. Leonard Wood and Springfield: Springfield | Tulsa
Between Springfield and Joplin: Joplin | Tulsa
Between Joplin and the Oklahoma state line: Tulsa


Major metropolitan areas would be control cities for hundreds of miles. Here's another example, though not in Missouri...


Pennsylvania Turnpike EB

Between the Ohio state line and Cranberry: Pittsburgh
Between Cranberry and New Stanton: Harrisburg | Philadelphia
Between New Stanton and Breezewood: Baltimore | Washington DC | Harrisburg | Philadelphia
(I envision a partitioned sign with Baltimore | Washington DC on the I-70 side of the partition, and Harrisburg | Philadelphia on the I-76 side of the partition)
Between Breezewood and Harrisburg: Harrisburg | Philadelphia
Between Harrisburg and King of Prussia: Philadelphia
Between King of Prussia and Bensalem (I-276): Trenton | New York
Between Bensalem and the New Jersey state line (I-95): New York


Pennsylvania Turnpike WB

Between the New Jersey state line and Bensalem (I-95): Philadelphia
Between Bensalem and Harrisburg (including I-276): Harrisburg | Pittsburgh
Between Harrisburg and Breezewood: Pittsburgh
Between Breezewood and New Stanton: Columbus | Pittsburgh
(I envision a partitioned sign with Columbus on the I-70 side of the partition, and Pittsburgh on the I-76 side of the partition)
Between New Stanton and Monroeville: Pittsburgh
Between Monroeville and the Ohio state line: Youngstown | Cleveland


Because the segment of the Pennsylvania Turnpike EB where I-70 and I-76 multiplex is a major route to four different major metropolitan areas on the East Coast, all four would get signed as reassurance. I believe that major metropolitan areas should be accounted for as often as possible.

[route56]

I-70 WB

Between the Illinois state line and downtown St. Louis: Downtown St. Louis
Between downtown St. Louis and Wentzville: Wentzville | Kansas City
Between Wentzville and Columbia: Columbia | Kansas City
Between Columbia and downtown Kansas City: Kansas City
Between downtown Kansas City and the Kansas state line: Topeka | Denver

FTFY. Salina and Hays are intermediate Control cities on I-70. I don't see a reason to sign for Denver all the way in eastern Kansas.

[cappicard]

I-70 WB

Between the Illinois state line and downtown St. Louis: Downtown St. Louis
Between downtown St. Louis and Wentzville: Wentzville | Kansas City
Between Wentzville and Columbia: Columbia | Kansas City
Between Columbia and downtown Kansas City: Kansas City
Between downtown Kansas City and the Kansas state line: Topeka | Denver

FTFY. Salina and Hays are intermediate Control cities on I-70. I don't see a reason to sign for Denver all the way in eastern Kansas.

Most of the control cities specified on I-70 west of the state line is Topeka. There is a distance sign a few miles west of K-7 featuring Denver along the Kansas Turnpike.