Delaware Bay Crossings.

[Tonytone]

On Phillyroads.com I found a page talking about the crossings from Cape May-Lewis and Sea Breeze-Woodland Beach. Now I understand that the areas where highways would have to be formed are rural, but the potential the surrounding land has, and more access freeing up I-95 traffic and also creating roads. http://www.phillyroads.com/crossings/delaware-bay/

[cpzilliacus]

On Phillyroads.com I found a page talking about the crossings from Cape May-Lewis and Sea Breeze-Woodland Beach. Now I understand that the areas where highways would have to be formed are rural, but the potential the surrounding land has, and more access freeing up I-95 traffic and also creating roads. http://www.phillyroads.com/crossings/delaware-bay/

Could this be built?  Yes, IMO it could (I am not a bridge engineer). 

But how to pay for it? 

Since nearly all crossings of the Delaware River and Delaware Bay are toll crossings pretty far upstream, this would need to be a DRBA toll crossing (besides, I doubt that DelDOT and NJDOT have the billions of dollars that a "free" crossing would require laying around).

Is there enough demand in the form of toll-paying traffic to make such a crossing work financially? Keep in mind that a long sea crossing like this will need a lot of maintenance and operations personnel from day one and for as long as it serves traffic, and the bondholders expect to be paid-back.

[Tonytone]

On Phillyroads.com I found a page talking about the crossings from Cape May-Lewis and Sea Breeze-Woodland Beach. Now I understand that the areas where highways would have to be formed are rural, but the potential the surrounding land has, and more access freeing up I-95 traffic and also creating roads. http://www.phillyroads.com/crossings/delaware-bay/

Could this be built?  Yes, IMO it could (I am not a bridge engineer). 

But how to pay for it? 

Since nearly all crossings of the Delaware River and Delaware Bay are toll crossings pretty far upstream, this would need to be a DRBA toll crossing (besides, I doubt that DelDOT and NJDOT have the billions of dollars that a "free" crossing would require laying around).

Is there enough demand in the form of toll-paying traffic to make such a crossing work financially? Keep in mind that a long sea crossing like this will need a lot of maintenance and operations personnel from day one and for as long as it serves traffic, and the bondholders expect to be paid-back.

Yes, from todays traffic & more families a link would seem necessary I-95 thru the tristate is very bad. Especially thru delco, Chester, & Pa the local traffic knows the roads but for an interstate highway it is bad & cannot handle the daily volumes of today. In 10-15 years it will be jampacked. Im also sure that new jersey, maryland & delaware would participate in building a tunnel bridge as it is a major project & also connects the bottom half of the delmarva which could create sprawl

[cpzilliacus]

Im also sure that new jersey, maryland & delaware would participate in building a tunnel bridge as it is a major project & also connects the bottom half of the delmarva which could create sprawl

I disagree regarding Maryland. I doubt seriously that Maryland would be interested in financially supporting this (and note that I have lived in Maryland for nearly all of my life but I do not speak for the state).

[Tonytone]

Im also sure that new jersey, maryland & delaware would participate in building a tunnel bridge as it is a major project & also connects the bottom half of the delmarva which could create sprawl

I disagree regarding Maryland. I doubt seriously that Maryland would be interested in financially supporting this (and note that have lived in Maryland for nearly all of my life but I do not speak for the state).

Well in that case statistics will have to make that project happen. the ferry service I heard they have is doing good, so they could be a start.

[froggie]

Not enough through-traffic along the I-95 corridor that could or would divert down to make such a project financially viable.  Furthermore, except at the 95/295/495 junction proper, I don't think the existing I-95 corridor between Baltimore and the NJ Turnpike is as bad as some claim.

Also, why isn't this thread in the Mid-Atlantic or Northeast subforums?

[jeffandnicole]

While I do think the I-95 corridor between NJ and DC is heavy and congested enough on a normal basis (especially weekends...even last weekend, a slow, nothing-going-on late April Sunday had traffic heavily jammed from 695 to 24 in Maryland, then upstream approaching the $8 tolls, then again thru much of Delaware) to warrant a long bypass for the 95 corridor, it's simply not going to happen.

The biggest logjams in the system currently, and results in the above, is the 3 lane-per-direction section of I-95 in Maryland, and the 2 lane ramp to I-295 in Delaware to the NJ Turnpike.  The I-95/PA Tpk connection will help relieve some of the latter...but Maryland's gonna be tight for some time.

When you think about the entire corridor and the 3di counterparts, you have:

In North Jersey, 6 or 7 lanes per direction (NJ Tpk Dual-Dual).
In the South Jersey/PA area, 7 - 10 lanes per direction (95 in PA: 3 or 4 lanes, In NJ: I-295, 2 - 3 lanes, NJ Tpk, 2 - 3 lanes).
In the South Jersey/DE area, 9 lanes per direction (DE: I-95, 2 lanes, I-495, 3 lanes, NJ: I-295, 2 lanes, NJ Tpk: 2 lanes). 
Delaware from I-295 to MD, 4 - 5 lanes.

Once you get to Maryland, it's 3 lanes per direction, with no 3 di counterpart, until you're south of Belair.

Maryland wouldn't pay for the bridge-tunnel itself.  But they would need to pay for their portion of the highway that get too and from such a connector above.

Also, why isn't this thread in the Mid-Atlantic or Northeast subforums?

It covers two regions.  Frankly, it belongs in the Fictional Highway forum, because it's never going to be built.

[cpzilliacus]

Not enough through-traffic along the I-95 corridor that could or would divert down to make such a project financially viable.  Furthermore, except at the 95/295/495 junction proper, I don't think the existing I-95 corridor between Baltimore and the NJ Turnpike is as bad as some claim.

I-95 in Maryland (especially approaching the lane drop at MD-24 in Harford County) suffers from plenty of recurring congestion.  Regarding the congestion at the I-95/I-295/I-495/DEL-141 interchange near Farnhurst, Delaware, that will presumably get better when the project there (DelDOT or DRBA or both?) is complete, and perhaps even more when the Pennsylvania Turnpike's project at Bristol, Pennsylvania to complete I-95 is done, possibly in 2018.

Also, why isn't this thread in the Mid-Atlantic or Northeast subforums?

Good question.

[froggie]

If Maryland is the chokepoint (as two of you have now suggested), that would speak far more to US 301 improvements (and a Bay Bridge 3rd span) than it would to a minimum-12-mile Delaware Bay water crossing plus approach roadways.  Which completely defeats the OP's purpose for this thread.

[cpzilliacus]

Once you get to Maryland, it's 3 lanes per direction, with no 3 di counterpart, until you're south of Belair.

I suspect that  many members of this forum will bail-out to U.S. 40 (or even MD-7!), which at least spare us some of interminable delays on the JFK Highway part of I-95 in Maryland.

[cpzilliacus]

If Maryland is the chokepoint (as two of you have now suggested), that would speak far more to US 301 improvements (and a Bay Bridge 3rd span) than it would to a minimum-12-mile Delaware Bay water crossing plus approach roadways.  Which completely defeats the OP's purpose for this thread.

U.S. 301 is indeed a good bailout route, and will get better when  the new tolled section is open to traffic.  If U.S. 301 between Bowling Green, Va. and Bowie, Md. were to be improved, then it really starts to become attractive for "thru" movements.

[Tonytone]

If Maryland is the chokepoint (as two of you have now suggested), that would speak far more to US 301 improvements (and a Bay Bridge 3rd span) than it would to a minimum-12-mile Delaware Bay water crossing plus approach roadways.  Which completely defeats the OP's purpose for this thread.

U.S. 301 is indeed a good bailout route, and will get better when  the new tolled section is open to traffic.  If U.S. 301 between Bowling Green, Va. and Bowie, Md. were to be improved, then it really starts to become attractive for "thru" movements.

U.S 301 shoulda been built years ago, its been in planning since the 70's but to think of that as a relief route is true to an extent. Dont forget that once you reach the biddles toll plaza & up to I-495 thats where all the traffic is. Traffic will get presumably worse if they dont widen the lanes of De-1 between tybouts corner & the I-95-De-1 interchange. Traffic is terrible everyday to a stop because of the 4 lane highway.  I should have took a picture to show how bas traffic is & this is southbound DE-1 passing the mall & SR-273 NB was moving freely.


iPhone

[Tonytone]

If Maryland is the chokepoint (as two of you have now suggested), that would speak far more to US 301 improvements (and a Bay Bridge 3rd span) than it would to a minimum-12-mile Delaware Bay water crossing plus approach roadways.  Which completely defeats the OP's purpose for this thread.

If you were going to Ny would you rather take,
I-95 all the way up?
I-95 to I-295 ?
I-95 TO I-295 TO NJTP ?
Or I-95 to the Delaware bay crossing which then would turn into the Garden state Parkway. 

[froggie]

Not the last one, that's for sure.  In no small part because there's no good way to get from I-95 to any such crossing...not without spending several more billions on top of the crossing cost in order to build such a connection.  That's money that would be far better spent improving existing corridors.

[cpzilliacus]

If Maryland is the chokepoint (as two of you have now suggested), that would speak far more to US 301 improvements (and a Bay Bridge 3rd span) than it would to a minimum-12-mile Delaware Bay water crossing plus approach roadways.  Which completely defeats the OP's purpose for this thread.

If you were going to Ny would you rather take,
I-95 all the way up?

Not currently possible.  When it becomes possible it will not be my preferred route.

I-95 to I-295 ?

Requires the use of I-195 between I-295 and I-95 (N.J. Turnpike) or some other east-west road that links both, such as 541 (Turnpike Exit 5) or NJ-73 (Turnpike Exit 4).

I-95 TO I-295 TO NJTP ?

That is my preferred route.

Or I-95 to the Delaware bay crossing which then would turn into the Garden state Parkway. 

I-95 does not run anyplace near the south end of the Garden  State Parkway in Cape May County, N.J. or near a possible Delaware landing (Lewes?) of a crossing of the Delaware Bay. To get there from most places in Maryland (such as the Baltimore region or the Washington suburbs in Maryland or Virginia) would require a significant detour via roads like MD/DEL-404, except for traffic wanting to reach the Jersey  Shore from Delaware and points south and west of Delaware.

[Tonytone]

If Maryland is the chokepoint (as two of you have now suggested), that would speak far more to US 301 improvements (and a Bay Bridge 3rd span) than it would to a minimum-12-mile Delaware Bay water crossing plus approach roadways.  Which completely defeats the OP's purpose for this thread.

If you were going to Ny would you rather take,
I-95 all the way up?

Not currently possible.  When it becomes possible it will not be my preferred route.

I-95 to I-295 ?

Requires the use of I-195 between I-295 and I-95 (N.J. Turnpike) or some other east-west road that links both, such as 541 (Turnpike Exit 5) or NJ-73 (Turnpike Exit 4).

I-95 TO I-295 TO NJTP ?

That is my preferred route.

Or I-95 to the Delaware bay crossing which then would turn into the Garden state Parkway. 

I-95 does not run anyplace near the south end of the Garden  State Parkway in Cape May County, N.J. or near a possible Delaware landing (Lewes?) of a crossing of the Delaware Bay. To get there from most places in Maryland (such as the Baltimore region or the Washington suburbs in Maryland or Virginia) would require a significant detour via roads like MD/DEL-404, except for traffic wanting to reach the Jersey  Shore from Delaware and points south and west of Delaware.

Most likely a new route would be created to connect to a newly built bridge. My point is thru traffic should be able to go thru that area roadways already exist & living in Ocean City Md & not being able to get to New Jersey Shore-points, New England, etc cannot be accesses without going thru Delaware, Pa, New Jersey. I understand the point to have traffic go thru a specific place aswell, but its the 21st Century.


iPhone

[froggie]

but its the 21st Century.

Excactly.  Which means that, in this era of tight transportation budgets and high construction costs, the economics of a given road project need to be seriously thought out.  I'm sorry, but your idea for a cross-Delaware Bay bridge just doesn't cut it.

[Roadgeekteen]

I would love this to be built, but it is never going to happen and I think this belongs in fictional highways anyway.

[Tonytone]

I would love this to be built, but it is never going to happen and I think this belongs in fictional highways anyway.

Thanks roadgeek they already said that


iPhone

[jeffandnicole]

If Maryland is the chokepoint (as two of you have now suggested), that would speak far more to US 301 improvements (and a Bay Bridge 3rd span) than it would to a minimum-12-mile Delaware Bay water crossing plus approach roadways.  Which completely defeats the OP's purpose for this thread.

If you were going to Ny would you rather take,
I-95 all the way up?
I-95 to I-295 ?
I-95 TO I-295 TO NJTP ?
Or I-95 to the Delaware bay crossing which then would turn into the Garden state Parkway. 

Let's say all these routes exist. 

95 to the fantasy Delaware Bay crossing to the GSP would be the LONGEST route possible.  And in terms of delays, you may not be avoiding a lot, being the GSP is often congested.  It was just widened a bit for a long stretch, but that's to handle current day volume, not fantasy 95 bypass volume.  It could definitely be an alternate route, but in the same sense that taking 95 to 695 to 83 to 81 to 78 is today to bypass much of the Baltimore - NYC corridor.

I-95 doesn't go all the way up now anyway.  But when it does, it won't be the fastest route due to existing congestion on 95 in PA without that thru traffic.  Not to mention their insistence on a 55 mph limit.

I-95 to I-295 doesn't get you to NYC, and never will.

As CP mentioned, 95 to 295 to the NJ Turnpike is the most realistic route now, and will continue to be the shortest, fastest route in the future.

...My point is thru traffic should be able to go thru that area roadways already exist & living in Ocean City Md & not being able to get to New Jersey Shore-points, New England, etc cannot be accesses without going thru Delaware, Pa, New Jersey. I understand the point to have traffic go thru a specific place aswell, but its the 21st Century.

To get to points north, OCMD traffic would have to go thru Delaware anyway.  And they can choose the Cape May-Lewis Ferry, or DE 1, eventually to 295 and into NJ.  They don't have to enter PA now or in the future.

But we can also just start naming every city, town and subdivision in America if we're going to start to justify why new roads should be built everywhere.

[1995hoo]

Busted quotes.

[jp the roadgeek]

Once you get to Maryland, it's 3 lanes per direction, with no 3 di counterpart, until you're south of Belair.

I suspect that  many members of this forum will bail-out to U.S. 40 (or even MD-7!), which at least spare us some of interminable delays on the JFK Highway part of I-95 in Maryland.

Or totally shunpike it and take US 1.

[jeffandnicole]

I understand that in the sense of someone coming up from Middletown De or baltimore. But what about coming from Lewes Delaware or Florida. you would want to stay on a Through way with the least amount of getting off an exit to get on another highway. Also the GSP (With some upgrades.) would most likely be able to handle a 70 Mph speedlimit cutting the time that it would take to get to NY.

Using the link you provided in your opening comment, anyone coming from Lewes and other Delaware Beach Points would be better served by a bridge replacing the Cape-May Lewis Ferry.  You already have the access on the NJ side...not complete highway access, although building 4 miles of roadway is a heckuva lot easier than 40 miles of roadway.

If you're coming from Florida, noting that extremely few people are driving such a distance, and wanting to stay on a thru-route, you would stay on 95 anyway!  And if NJ would actually allow a 70 mph limit, the most likely candidate for such a limit is the NJ Turnpike anyway.

Once you get to Maryland, it's 3 lanes per direction, with no 3 di counterpart, until you're south of Belair.

I suspect that  many members of this forum will bail-out to U.S. 40 (or even MD-7!), which at least spare us some of interminable delays on the JFK Highway part of I-95 in Maryland.

Or totally shunpike it and take US 1.

Rt. 40 is an extremely popular bailout route.  My non-road loving uncle, when he has to travel between VA and NJ around a holiday, will often take that.  He'll say it is crowded, but it moves a bit better than 95 around the holidays.

[plain]

How deep is the Delaware Bay? Would a bridge or bridge-tunnel even be able to go there?

[jeffandnicole]

How deep is the Delaware Bay? Would a bridge or bridge-tunnel even be able to go there?

Well, anything's possible.  Just pony up the money! :-)

I don't think it's any deeper than the Chesapeake, with similar ocean/bay floor features.

If there's no tunnel, a bridge will have to have at least a 180' minimum clearance over the main navigation channel as that's about what the Delaware Memorial Bridge provides.  No doubt there will need to be a few other span sections with lesser clearances so that all boats over 12' or whatever don't have to go to one access point.