Windows 8(.1)

[silverback1065]

Split from https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=11718.0 .

Windows 8 is great. The apps are worthless though (desktop perspective)

[myosh_tino]

Where do people get the hate for Windows 8? I never disliked it, even before 8.1. I have had virtually no issues with Windows 8/8.1.

I think my dislike for Windows 8 are the radical changes Microsoft made to the UI.  A lot of that had to do with their attempt at creating a hybrid OS that merges a traditional desktop OS with a tablet OS, something I think they've done very poorly.  Windows 8 will never see the light of day on any of my desktop or laptop computers.  This is coming from someone who's been using Windows since Windows 95 (then 98, then XP and finally Windows 7).

[vdeane]

Where do people get the hate for Windows 8? I never disliked it, even before 8.1. I have had virtually no issues with Windows 8/8.1.

Because I don't want to use a tablet UI on a PC.  I don't use Gnome 3 or Unity on Linux for the same reason.

[theline]

Where do people get the hate for Windows 8? I never disliked it, even before 8.1. I have had virtually no issues with Windows 8/8.1.

Because I don't want to use a tablet UI on a PC.  I don't use Gnome 3 or Unity on Linux for the same reason.

Because I don't want to use a crappy phone UI on my PC. Microsoft touts that they are making the experience the same across all my devices. If I wanted a tablet or phone experience, I'd pick up those devices. I sat down at my PC because I wanted a PC experience.

That being said, when I bought my new PC, I opted for Windows 8 rather than pay an extra $50 to go with Windows 7, because I'm a cheap bastard. I upgraded free to 8.1 then paid just $5 to download Start8. With a little tweaking I have a very Windows 7-like experience. I'm thrilled with the result.

My question is: does Microsoft do any testing or focus groups before they unleash products on the unsuspecting public? If they do, they are very bad at selecting representative testers.

[bugo]

Where do people get the hate for Windows 8? I never disliked it, even before 8.1. I have had virtually no issues with Windows 8/8.1.

Because I don't want to use a tablet UI on a PC.  I don't use Gnome 3 or Unity on Linux for the same reason.

+1

[myosh_tino]

Where do people get the hate for Windows 8? I never disliked it, even before 8.1. I have had virtually no issues with Windows 8/8.1.

Because I don't want to use a tablet UI on a PC.  I don't use Gnome 3 or Unity on Linux for the same reason.

Well said! 

[J N Winkler]

Where do people get the hate for Windows 8? I never disliked it, even before 8.1. I have had virtually no issues with Windows 8/8.1.

I add my plus-one to other people's comments.  However, I do have my own issues with 8.1, which I became aware of when I helped set up a brand-new 8.1 PC for someone else in my household.

• Crapware cleanup is now much harder in Windows 8/8.1 than it was with previous versions of Windows.
  
  
  • You cannot delete icons directly from the Start screen.  (Previously it was always possible to move or delete icons from the menu.)  Now, in order to clean up icons, you have to do a lot of guessing as to the directories where the icons "live" so you can get into Explorer and deal with them there.  This is a major hassle since some icons are now deposited in user directories (so you have to search \Local\, \LocalLow\, and \Roaming\), other icons are deposited in \Program Files\, etc.  You cannot find icon location by right-clicking and choosing "Properties."  Meanwhile, Windows applications by default still vomit unwanted icons into the start screen, just as they did back in the days when it was easy to clean up a start menu.
  
  
  • There are now two places to remove unwanted applications--you can uninstall them in Programs/Features (a legacy from the old desktop Windows), or you can "delete" them as an "app."  For some applications it is possible to do both, but now you have to guess what sequence to do them in, since one or the other (it varies from program to program) won't do a complete removal and choosing the wrong one first can make it all but impossible to remove other undesired features.  (There is now a lot of advice on the Web along the lines of "Reinstall this crapware program just so you can uninstall it properly.")
  
  
  • Some games vendors for Windows 8.1 deliberately design their programs so that come-ons continue to clutter your start screen after you delete or uninstall them.  (TangentWild is especially notorious for this.  There is nothing wrong with this company that a good firebombing wouldn't cure.)  Effective recipes for removing these come-ons do exist but are surprisingly hard to pick out of the cesspit of "reinstall to uninstall" misinformation on the Web.
  
  
  • Gaining access to some of the folders necessary to remove unwanted icons involves a cumbersome procedure to fool the system into letting you open a command window with the necessary administrative privileges.  (Apparently you are not "Administrator" even when you are logged into the Administrator account.)
  
  
  • In the All Apps page of the Start screen, you now get headers instead of folders.  If there is a way to change header names, I am not aware of it, so your Start screen can still look quite untidy even after you have satisfied yourself you have just the essentials installed.


• Live Tiles . . . often aren't.  Because wallpaper is more pleasing to the eye than streaky purple with squarish icons, we keep the computer dwelling on the Desktop, not the Start screen, and whenever we flip to the Start screen to see the weather app (one of the pre-loaded apps that we do actually use, largely because it is integrated into the OS and so has fewer problems than the Weather Channel system tray widget), we almost invariably get the half sun instead of a time and weather display.  If we are supposed to tolerate Live Tiles, then they should really be live, and display information without our having to take any extra steps beyond hitting WinKey.


• Shutdown is very unintuitive--you now have to go to the Start screen, open the Charm Bar, choose "Power Options," and then pick the shutdown option.  The shift toward mobile design does not account for this setup since it is much easier to shut down, e.g., an Android phone.


• The default save directory for many applications is now SkyDrive.  Fuck the cloud!  Even if I weren't absolutely convinced that the NSA spends its time and uncounted billions of our tax dollars trying to perform man-in-the-middle attacks on absolutely anything anywhere that uses an encrypted tunnel, I wouldn't use the cloud as the primary repository for anything, because I don't trust syncing processes not to delete local material when the cloud copies become unavailable (e.g. as a result of a cloud provider acting in bad faith and trumping up a TOS violation against an innocent user).

Bottom line:  Windows 8.1 is still usable as a desktop OS, largely because it still has the same under-the-hood features as previous versions of Windows (such as NT batch, PowerShell, backward compatibility for applications, etc.), but many of the differences between it and Windows 7 amount to an ergonomic step backward for desktop users that don't confer any corresponding advantages to mobile users.  I think Microsoft's strategy of reinventing itself as a "devices and services company," in which the Windows 8/8.1 family of operating systems is key, is certainly badly timed and may be fundamentally misconceived.  Android is already firmly established as the majority OS on mobile devices and Microsoft doesn't seem to have a workable plan for overcoming the price disadvantage of its Surface tablets.  Plus, while mobile devices are all well and good, people still want the option of being able to sit down at a PC for serious productive work, and that is now hampered not just by Windows 8.1's UI issues but also by developments such as Microsoft's new rental model for Office.  Plus having cloud storage integrated into the OS calls into play many trust issues Microsoft has not even begun to address in a satisfactory way.

[vdeane]

Shutdown can be accessed via the settings menu on the charms bar in desktop.  The admin thing actually dates to Vista; the admin command prompt can be launched by right clicking the start button.

[bugo]

Windows 8 is another shit operating system in the vein of Windows ME and Vista.  Microsoft tends to put out a good OS, thin a shit one, then a good one, then a shit one, rinse and repeat.  If this continues, Windows 9 will rock while Windows 10 will suck balls.

[J N Winkler]

Shutdown can be accessed via the settings menu on the charms bar in desktop.

Yup.  The point really is that the ordinary user doesn't expect to have to go to something called "Settings" just to power down the computer.

The admin thing actually dates to Vista; the admin command prompt can be launched by right clicking the start button.

This is also true, but that only launches the vanilla admin prompt, which for some reason did not have the privileges I needed in order to expose the \WindowsApps\ directory.  The only thing I know of on previous Windows versions that is really comparable is having to go through convoluted steps to launch a command prompt that runs with the same privileges as NT AUTHORITY\SYSTEM, which is part of a commonly suggested procedure for terminating processes that have ignored all the standard kill directives (kill, taskkill, choosing "End process" in Task Manager):  there is a procedure involving the at command that probably hasn't worked since XP, and another involving psexec (part of the PSTools distribution) that is probably the only remotely convenient way to do it in Windows 7.

Windows 8 is another shit operating system in the vein of Windows ME and Vista.  Microsoft tends to put out a good OS, thin a shit one, then a good one, then a shit one, rinse and repeat.  If this continues, Windows 9 will rock while Windows 10 will suck balls.

According to that pattern, Windows 8.1 was supposed to be the "good" version, in much the same way 7 was the "good" successor to the turkey that was Vista.  But Microsoft can really afford to alternate good versions of its flagship OS with bad only as long as PCs are dominant in the personal-computing space, and that arguably is unlikely to be true for much longer if it is even still true (which I think is questionable).  It may be that this time they have screwed the pooch for good--we'll just have to see.

[vdeane]

I wonder if the greater degree of admin rights needed has anything to do with app sandboxing (especially since, as far as metro is concerned, the desktop is just another app).

IMO 8.1 is more like a large service pack a la XP SP2.

Yup.  The point really is that the ordinary user doesn't expect to have to go to something called "Start" just to power down the computer.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[bugo]

What is wrong with Windows 7?  They took something that wasn't broken and ruined it by "fixing" it.  They should have introduced "Windows Tablet Edition" and kept marketing Windows 7 for laptops and desktops.

[J N Winkler]

I wonder if the greater degree of admin rights needed has anything to do with app sandboxing (especially since, as far as metro is concerned, the desktop is just another app).

It might.  The rationale I have seen is to prevent ham-fisted users from getting into \WindowsApps\ casually, breaking apps, and then complaining to Microsoft when they don't work.  The problem is that when an app doesn't behave--won't delete when the user tries to get rid of it, etc.--most of the suggested fixes require access to \WindowsApps\.

IMO 8.1 is more like a large service pack a la XP SP2.

I can see the merit in that argument--the UI didn't feel that different when I did the instant upgrade from 8 to 8.1.

Yup.  The point really is that the ordinary user doesn't expect to have to go to something called "Start" just to power down the computer.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Nice one!

What is wrong with Windows 7?  They took something that wasn't broken and ruined it by "fixing" it.  They should have introduced "Windows Tablet Edition" and kept marketing Windows 7 for laptops and desktops.

They do have a "Windows Tablet Edition"--it's called Windows RT.  What they are finding is that they can't unstick enterprise users from Android if all they have to offer is another tablet ghetto.  Windows RT can run only apps from the Windows Store.

[sammi]

IMO 8.1 is more like a large service pack a la XP SP2.

I can see the merit in that argument--the UI didn't feel that different when I did the instant upgrade from 8 to 8.1.

There's really not that much changed. The only things I've really noticed are (of course) the return of the Start button and the ability to snap with smaller screens (I have a 1280x800 screen which wasn't wide enough for Snap in 8).

[Thing 342]

My main qualm about Windows 8.x is how everything that used to be fairly straightforward before is now a convoluted and frustrating process. The fact that shutting down the computer now requires going through 3+ different dialogs is absurd. Also the fact that data from 'Modern' apps are now saved in three different places, none of which are easily accessible to desktop apps.

BTW, the discussion of the merits of Windows 8 should really be moved to another thread.

[vdeane]

They do have a "Windows Tablet Edition"--it's called Windows RT.  What they are finding is that they can't unstick enterprise users from Android if all they have to offer is another tablet ghetto.  Windows RT can run only apps from the Windows Store.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms950406.aspx

Tablets, before iPads made everyone obsess over touch.

[Scott5114]

We have some tablets at work with Win8 on them, and it's moderately annoying, but usable. I have Windows 8.1 on a recently-purchased laptop and it drives me up the wall. I'm guessing the difference is because Win8 makes sense on the tablet (and I only use one program on the tablet, for work purposes) but on the laptop I use a lot of programs for personal use, and the UI doesn't make as much sense for a laptop.

Unfortunately, what I would really like is something running KDE, but I can't even run a Linux Live CD due to the laptop requiring arcane drivers and having a bunch of "UEFI" bullshit that makes the BIOS only accessible from Windows. (Who thought we needed THAT misfeature?)

[algorerhythms]

Unfortunately, what I would really like is something running KDE, but I can't even run a Linux Live CD due to the laptop requiring arcane drivers and having a bunch of "UEFI" bullshit that makes the BIOS only accessible from Windows. (Who thought we needed THAT misfeature?)

Microsoft, to prevent people from installing Linux on their laptops, since the "netbook" fad a few years ago cut into their bottom line.

[formulanone]

My main qualm about Windows 8.x is how everything that used to be fairly straightforward before is now a convoluted and frustrating process.

Here, here.

I bought a new laptop for my wife, and we both hate the entire process. You don't feel like you really "own" the PC anymore (even though you've paid for it), you feel like you're logging onto some sort of shared public website on a municipal computer. Her profile "crashed", and she had to create a new one. Skype doesn't handle multiple callers on Win8, but it does on 7...it's an MS product, after all. Maybe I'm just hung up on a few things, since I don't use it much, but seeing an ad for Microsoft's products during a game of FreeCell absolutely stinks.

Tablets are great for things that require or work well with haptic/visual feedback, and less to do with typing anything longer than a sentence or two. PCs are better for finer controls. Merging the two is going to take a while; the human process in using a Windows 8 computer feels somewhat hampered with this By Committee design.

I've used a Surface tablet; it works well enough to be a less "exciting" version of an iPad, but it gets the job done. I'd like to see it really take off, but it seems to be unpopular. It seems to be a better mix of PC+tablet, rather than the other way around.

BTW, the discussion of the merits of Windows 8 should really be moved to another thread.

That'll be a short thread...unless "Nine" slams the crap out of 8 like bad memories of Vista, I think most of us will just get used to it after a while, and deal with it.

[mukade]

To provide an alternate view...

I like Win 8.1 a lot. I run it on my personal non-touchscreen laptop (which I upgraded from Windows 7) and on a tablet (HP ElitePad 900). When I want to do normal PC tasks on the tablet, I dock it, use a mouse, use a Bluetooth keyboard, and sometimes plug in a monitor. When I travel, I put the tablet in a productivity sleeve and use it like a laptop.

My work laptop runs Windows 7 Enterprise, and I really have no issue going between the two OS versions. My wife has a touch-enabled laptop running Win 8, and she really likes that as well. My co-workers also generally use Win 8.1 for home use while using Win 7 for their work laptops.

I can't recall any issues with Windows 8. I really think it is subjective.

[Thing 342]

Unfortunately, what I would really like is something running KDE, but I can't even run a Linux Live CD due to the laptop requiring arcane drivers and having a bunch of "UEFI" bullshit that makes the BIOS only accessible from Windows. (Who thought we needed THAT misfeature?)

You need to disable Secure Boot. With Secure Boot on, the laptop's bootloader won't load any OS that doesn't have a matching key. Here's a guide: http://www.maketecheasier.com/disable-secure-boot-in-windows-8/

[texaskdog]

Split from https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=11718.0 .

Windows 8 is great. The apps are worthless though (desktop perspective)

Windows 8 is awful.  I spent days finding work arounds so I can even use my home computer.  My work computer is on 7 and we aren't switching.

[ZLoth]

I loaded up the preview releases of Windows 8 on some test boxes in my department. Mind you, we are all tech heads and power users, and the biggest turn off was the TETRIS... errr... Metro interface. We ended up installing Classic Shell on there. A friend of mine has also ordered a new laptop, and went back to Windows 7 rather than stick with 8. There were some major bad decisions when it came to the user interface.

[route56]

Win8.1 tip: WIN + X brings up a menu screen that includes, but not limited to: add/remove programs, disk management, computer management, command prompt, control panel, and shut down! Almost as easy as finding it in Win7, but something you have to learn from the tech blogs.

[Scott5114]

Unfortunately, what I would really like is something running KDE, but I can't even run a Linux Live CD due to the laptop requiring arcane drivers and having a bunch of "UEFI" bullshit that makes the BIOS only accessible from Windows. (Who thought we needed THAT misfeature?)

You need to disable Secure Boot. With Secure Boot on, the laptop's bootloader won't load any OS that doesn't have a matching key. Here's a guide: http://www.maketecheasier.com/disable-secure-boot-in-windows-8/

I did disable Secure Boot, and got into the BIOS to change the boot order...the problem is that when I put my disc in, I just get a black screen with a random fragment of the UI up in the corner, and it never loads a usable UI.

I am planning on dual booting if I can get a usable Linux installed, but the whole UEFI thing makes me wonder if there would be a way to access the BIOS at all if I were to remove Windows from the laptop at all. (To clarify, there is no "press Del for setup" during bootup like we've had for the last 30 years; one has to go into the control panel and select a "reboot and go into BIOS" option.) This is a Toshiba Satellite laptop, by the way; if you enjoy tinkering with your hardware I would suggest avoiding this model.