State shapes on highway signs

[agentsteel53]

different style.  this is the old primary marker.

[mightyace]

^^^

Agreed.

Though, the current SSH marker is certainly a descendant of the old primary one.

[agentsteel53]

^^^

Agreed.

Though, the current SSH marker is certainly a descendant of the old primary one.

what did they use for secondary routes before 1982?  or was such a system not in place?  1982 is when they introduced the current style of primary marker.

also, note on that TENN 68 the extra two diagonally placed mounting holes.

[mightyace]

^^^

As the first time I was in Tennessee was 1987 or 1988, I can't say.

[agentsteel53]

I was first in Tennessee in 1986 and I remember the "evil robot shields" very distinctly. 

that "TENN" looks like quite the set of teeth to a five-year-old's imagination! 

[mightyace]

According to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_state_routes_in_Tennessee

Note 2: The triangle design (above) was the primary design until 1982, when Tennessee divided its routes into primary and secondary routes.

Off topic but interesting:

Note 1: The Tennessee Department of Transportation maintains these routes under the "State Highways" title of state law, but designates them as "state routes".

[agentsteel53]

According to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_state_routes_in_Tennessee

Note 2: The triangle design (above) was the primary design until 1982, when Tennessee divided its routes into primary and secondary routes.

well, close enough - one has the state name, the other does not.  and they are differently shaped.  but Wikipedia tends to be pretty balky at accurate highway sign representations! 

[Alex]

According to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_state_routes_in_Tennessee

Note 2: The triangle design (above) was the primary design until 1982, when Tennessee divided its routes into primary and secondary routes.

The official state map also reflects the 1982 switch, indicating the partition of the state highways into a primary and secondary based system. They probably figured by coming up with the square design, that shield replacements could be grandfathered in, rather than all at once, of those old triangle shields with TENN to the new rounded end triangle shields you find today.

[agentsteel53]

The official state map also reflects the 1982 switch, indicating the partition of the state highways into a primary and secondary based system. They probably figured by coming up with the square design, that shield replacements could be grandfathered in, rather than all at once, of those old triangle shields with TENN to the new rounded end triangle shields you find today.

I wonder if there are any secondary routes that are marked with the old-style triangle.  I know of two state-named triangles left in Tenn, but I believe both are for primary routes.

[TheStranger]

A bit of a guess here:  the 1982 shield change was timed for the Knoxville World's Fair?

[Scott5114]

but they had eliminated the "US" by the early 1960s.

Apparently this really cheesed FHWA off! I seem to recall they got rather fussy about it.

[agentsteel53]

Apparently this really cheesed FHWA off! I seem to recall they got rather fussy about it.

that was an earlier controversy.  South Dakota, North Carolina, Illinois, and some other states eliminated "US" around 1950, and were forced to bring it back in 1956.  Thus the existence of no-US shields on embossed state-named blanks, and with-US completely flat shields.

as far as I can tell, Washington got off scot-free, as I have never seen a flat WASHINGTON/US shield, but have seen them without US.

some states like Ohio and Tennessee moved the US into the crown.  OHIO-US, TENN-US, etc.  Those, apparently, were not called out, as they did not bring the US back "downstairs".

[TheStranger]

but they had eliminated the "US" by the early 1960s.

Apparently this really cheesed FHWA off! I seem to recall they got rather fussy about it.

Robert Droz's page goes into detail about the US/neutered controversy of the 1950s:
http://www.us-highways.com/ussign.htm

[agentsteel53]

Robert Droz's page goes into detail about the US/neutered controversy of the 1950s:
http://www.us-highways.com/ussign.htm

from Robert Droz's page:

This design was very popular in the Plains states as well, including Texas.

negative - Texas had a shield style with US in the crown, and no state name.  And only a partial border.

In 1953, AASHO put their foot down and required the "US" be placed back on the signs.

oops, '53 not '56.  I had misremembered.

This lead to yet another design change in 1954, when Ohio, and many of the eastern states decided to place an abbreviation and the US on the top line of the sign and remove the divider line.

not quite.  Ohio and Tenn had the OHIO-US and TENN-US, with divider line, by 1948.  Ohio did indeed remove the divider line in 1954, but it was the only state, as far as I know, that did not have the divider line.  They used this style until 1961.

Examples were "OHIO-US", "MASS-US, "CONN-US, "D.C.-US", "MISS-US", "TENN-US" etc.

I've never seen MASS-US, CONN-US, or MISS-US.  D.C.-US had the crossbar consistently.

TENN-US was first placed only on the oversize 24x24 white squares.  The smaller reassurance markers continued to have TENN and US on separate lines.  Then they moved the TENN-US to one line on the cutouts too, then finally eliminated the cutouts, using - by 1958 or so - the 24" white squares for reassurance.

By way of contrast, both the Carolinas went as far as to spell out "UNITED STATES" using series "A" on the top of their signs, however, this design was very short lived as well, because series "A" is very hard to read. (I'm looking for pictures of these. Let me know if you find any.)

I have definitely never seen a picture of this!!  

[Scott5114]

I'd like to see an even more in-depth description of what happened with that. What justification did FHWA have for keeping "US" on the signs? What did they hang over the states' heads to keep it on the shields? If it was so important that "US" was there in 1950, why did it suddenly not matter in 1961?

I tend to find myself not trusting older roadgeek sites as much as I once did. We know so much more about the history of things now than we did when a lot of those sites went online. This is primarily due to the webmasters of old not having all the information in front of them so they made educated guesses to fill in the gaps. Often they were mostly right, but further research tends to turn up previously unknown, more short-lived variants that fill in the gray areas.

[agentsteel53]

I'd like to see an even more in-depth description of what happened with that. What justification did FHWA have for keeping "US" on the signs? What did they hang over the states' heads to keep it on the shields? If it was so important that "US" was there in 1950, why did it suddenly not matter in 1961?

I tend to find myself not trusting older roadgeek sites as much as I once did. We know so much more about the history of things now than we did when a lot of those sites went online. This is primarily due to the webmasters of old not having all the information in front of them so they made educated guesses to fill in the gaps. Often they were mostly right, but further research tends to turn up previously unknown, more short-lived variants that fill in the gray areas.

Rob Droz is still very much around, so I can ask him for some source material.

even I'm guessing on some of the exact years - for example, Tennessee, did they drop the cutouts in '58?  who knows, but by '61 they were gone ... plain black squares all around.  Except for this one, which is an old white square that they repainted!



that one threw me for years before I figured out what it meant!  Looking at the sign up close and seeing the repaint certainly helped.

[TheStranger]

If it was so important that "US" was there in 1950, why did it suddenly not matter in 1961?

Wasn't the 1961 "California cutout" shield basically only originally intended for freeway trailblazers or something in that vein?  That it is the only surviving cutout design seems to have been an accident of circumstance.

I would guess that the removal of state name had to do with legibility issues (and maybe why the state-name plate has always been much smaller on the Interstate shields as a result).

[agentsteel53]

Wasn't the 1961 "California cutout" shield basically only originally intended for freeway trailblazers or something in that vein?  That it is the only surviving cutout design seems to have been an accident of circumstance.

freeway reassurance, to be posted directly underneath an interstate shield, according to AASHO 1961 manual.  36" interstate and 24" US shield.



don't mind the funny shape; that is the correct application.

a lot of states used it incorrectly - my guess is, it happened mainly because the cutout was sitting in the sign shop when a marker of a given number was needed.

[TheStranger]

freeway reassurance, to be posted directly underneath an interstate shield, according to AASHO 1961 manual.  36" interstate and 24" US shield.

That actually explains EXACTLY why there's no state name in the 1961-spec US shield - in theory, the state name would already be in the Interstate shield above it!

I'm biased as a California native but I really appreciate the aesthetics of this look and wish more states still used it. 

Did Division of Highways use it "incorrectly" (basically, as it is used now - general-purpose US route trailblazer) from the start?  Were there any California US shields in the older state-name format made/installed after 1961, besides the historic-route markers?

[agentsteel53]

Did Division of Highways use it "incorrectly" (basically, as it is used now - general-purpose US route trailblazer) from the start?  Were there any California US shields in the older state-name format made/installed after 1961, besides the historic-route markers?

yes.  California has been using this style exclusively since 1957.  The Feds borrowed the style from CA.  

by 1956, the need for simpler signs for high-speed contexts was becoming evident, so CA introduced this 24" style:



at the same time, the CALIFORNIA/US 18" shields were being made.  In March, 1957, the logo was dropped and this style of 24" shield was introduced.  The last porcelain independent-mount route marker style.



then in May, 1957 the aluminum retroreflective cutout was introduced, and at that time it appears the 18" state-named shields went away.  My layout sheet is 5-28-57 for the new style and specifies either 18" or 24" size.

By 1958 the state-named US shields were certainly not being specified for use anywhere.

I am not 100% sure when the 18" no-state-name cutout was dropped, but I think around 1963.  I'll have to check - I believe I have a layout sheet from '63 that specifies only 24".

[TheStranger]

I guess calling it the "1961-spec" (while true) really only makes sense in a federal context...it seems that the general concept (Series D/Series E numerals, no state name or crossbar, "US" in Series D) comes from the 1957 California look, and that the federal restrictions on its use ran counter to what was already established Division of Highways practice. 

When were the last button-copy-on-numeral variants of this shield produced?

[agentsteel53]

I guess calling it the "1961-spec" (while true) really only makes sense in a federal context...it seems that the general concept (Series D/Series E numerals, no state name or crossbar, "US" in Series D) comes from the 1957 California look, and that the federal restrictions on its use ran counter to what was already established Division of Highways practice.  

When were the last button-copy-on-numeral variants of this shield produced?

the general concept had been around a lot longer.  



I believe the cutout style was used by Missouri a few years earlier.  Just a different shield shape.



it is basically a 1948 spec 24" shield, just a cutout that also has US in it.  A lot of states had the cutout with no US as early as 1948.

I also have seen a photo from Oregon, that I believe is 1953, that has a US-only shield on a white illuminated-from-behind lane indicator.  I'll have to upload that photo.

as for California, the last discrete-reflectored variant would likely have been produced just before the spec of May 28 1957 took effect... so probably not too long after that date.

[J N Winkler]

Apparently this really cheesed FHWA off! I seem to recall they got rather fussy about it.

What is the textual source for this particular controversy?

[TheStranger]

Apparently this really cheesed FHWA off! I seem to recall they got rather fussy about it.

What is the textual source for this particular controversy?

Looking at Robert Droz's page about the US shield changes, he cites the following:

"From Names to Numbers: The Origins of the U.S. Numbered Highway System" by Richard F. Weingroff, FHWA Information Liason Specialist, published in AASHTO Quarterly, Spring 1997.
American Highways April 1927, Vol. VI No. 2
Florida: Trails to Turnpikes 1919-1964 by Baynard Kendrick, 1964
Older MUTCD information, especially about the smaller 'city use' US shields, and the wonderful 66 shield, Bob Ross
A great deal of the US shield information, the Texas 1950's picture, the Ohio-US, the Business 66, Kansas 24 and Washington 99 - Ron Wilbanks - you could even say he wrote much of this page.

---

as for California, the last discrete-reflectored variant would likely have been produced just before the spec of May 28 1957 took effect... so probably not too long after that date.

Do you know of any still-standing examples, or examples that lasted into the 80s or later?

[agentsteel53]

A great deal of the US shield information, the Texas 1950's picture, the Ohio-US, the Business 66, Kansas 24 and Washington 99 - Ron Wilbanks - you could even say he wrote much of this page.

that explains much of the factual incorrectness  

Do you know of any still-standing examples, or examples that lasted into the 80s or later?

I do not, offhand.  Certainly none are surviving to this day.  The intermediate styles (1955-57, including the 29" California/US and bear shields of 1955) are very hard to find even in collections - for example, I do not know any shields of this style that exist anywhere.



that is the state route equivalent of the US 60/70/99 that I just showed a photo of.  1956.

I know of one 1955-spec California/US shield, no 1955-spec huge bears (29" high, basically a scaled up version of the 18" bear), one 1956 spec US shield like that 60/70/99, as mentioned zero spades of that spec, and as for the early 1957 spec, I know three US (50, 66, 99) and two spade (49, 88).  

the only way I was able to reconstruct the 1956 narrow spade is because I'm looking at the specification sheet as we speak... it's on that CD I sent you, but don't ask me what page of that huge pdf file!