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Why does Chick-fil-A avoid the Northeast

Started by Buffaboy, October 05, 2015, 08:30:07 PM

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jwolfer

#225
Quote from: Pete from Boston on October 14, 2015, 06:06:50 PM
Quote from: jwolfer on October 14, 2015, 04:13:50 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on October 14, 2015, 04:04:00 PM

Quote from: jwolfer on October 14, 2015, 02:26:22 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 14, 2015, 02:09:33 PM
Quote from: jwolfer on October 14, 2015, 01:41:57 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 14, 2015, 01:19:20 PM
Quote from: Buffaboy on October 14, 2015, 01:01:51 PM

On a side note, I wonder if confederate flags are flown out there?


There are idiots flying Confederate Battle Flags here in the Capital Region of NY.  Somehow, that flag has become a symbol of just general...rebellion, I suppose (which means...shouldn't we throw them in jail?), and by "rebellion" I mean "stupidity."  At least MO was essentially a border state.  Flying it in NY?  That should qualify you for sitting in the corner with a dunce cap on.
When I see people in NY and PA I think racist white supremacists types. In FL, VA or any other former Confederate state I think heritage and history. ( no comments on FL is not the South. My ancestors fought for confederacy with Florida Company)

I dunno.  When I see it flown in the South, I suppose I just see it as being flown out of -- for lack of a better word -- ignorance.  People flying it out of a sense of some sort of generic "Southern Pride" without thinking about the actual values that were being fought for under that flag. 

I also have ancestors that fought for the CSA.  I like to give them the credit of them being smart enough for knowing what they were actually fighting for given how smart their descendants are. :D
You can't say ignorance.. It's hard to judge 150+ years ago with today's outlook on the world.. The victors write the history.. People like to think the union fought on the noble cause.. But look at the writings of Lincoln, grant etc.. They were downright racist.  Like any war there was many factors. Slavery being one..

And if you want to judge the South for having slaves, then you have to judge New England for actually running the ships from Africa to the Americas. 

Why not?  Many of us in New England have little problem casting a critical eye on the manipulative behavior of the early European adventurers and settlers toward the native population here.  I don't know anyone that would in the same breath defend the slave trade.

QuotePeople are wanting to erase the Confederacy from history.

Nonsense.  People are wanting to stop celebrating a government that existed to preserve the use of human beings as livestock and a subsequent century of codified second-class citizenship for those same people.
The ships that brought the slaves were from places like New Bedford. Not just early exlplorers. New Englanders have this smug attitude about the South and race relations and everything else for that matter. We get lectures about lack of diversity from people living lilly white Vermont.

No one defends slavery it is the "original sin" ifyou will of this country.  But the reasons behind the civil war are more nuanced that a bunch of evil southern white folks wanting their slaves and the noble people from up north wanting equality for all... It much more complex. The New England textile mills had no problem with using cheap cotton from slave labor to make cloth and clothing to sell to give an example. The entire country bears blame for slavery.

But what do I know I am just some backwards hayseed I don't have no sophistication like Boston folks do.. Come down here and learn us somethin'

You seem to be approaching this with a chip on your shoulder already, and I can't help you there.  Nobody is calling you a hayseed.  You are the one that is turning this personal.

You don't want to believe me when I say that just as there are people here that acknowledge the New England role in the depredations against natives, we are also well aware of the triangle trade and are not attempting to rewrite that history.  Please at least note that in another thread about the acceptance of refugee migrants in Europe, I was careful to note that most Northerners did not want emancipated blacks here, if at all.  The Emancipation Proclamation was not the product of overwhelming popular sentiment in the North.  It was the result of careful political calculation by President Lincoln despite its unpopularity.

This does not change what the Confederacy and its flag mean to the descendants of slaves, nor does the assertion, even if true, that the entire country bears responsibility for slavery.

What I do not understand is why people take personally attacks on a flag that represented stealing the basic human rights of generations of slaves, while simultaneously questioning why others take that ugly association personally.

No chip on my shoulder, and I don't take it as a personal insult. But as an insult on the entire  region. Many up north hear a southern accent and automatically think stupid.. The uneducated dolt from Brooklyn thinks he is superior to the PhD physicist from NC.  And this stereotype is promulgated they the media. Dumb characters, closed minded characters even is movie is set in Seattle always have a southern accent.
You need to read up on slavery in the north.. The abolitionists rewrote history of New England to absolve them of any guilt in slavery, while there may not have been legal slavery in 1860 in the North, free blacks had no rights for the most part..And at the time slavery was legal in all colonies. They certainly did not want black citizens. There were laws against  blacks owning property, serving on juries, having relations with whites etc.

While slavery was opposed in the abstract they certainly did not want black people living among them, because in their view whites were the superior race.. The very definition of racist.

So don't lecture on how horrible the South is or was, and don't whitewash.. no pun intended.. the role that New England had in slavery in this country.


J N Winkler

Some of the more interesting passages in Frederick Douglass' autobiography My Bondage and My Freedom (which has had a honored place on my shelf for over 25 years) have to do with segregation in Massachusetts and New England abolitionists' discomfort with the concept of living cheek by jowl with free blacks.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

empirestate


Quote from: Buffaboy on October 14, 2015, 06:23:40 PM
Why do I have to take the blame for spawning this potential mess :ded:.

Well, ya gotta admit a thread called "Why does Chick-fil-A avoid the Northeast" could hardly have been expected to turn out otherwise. ;-)


iPhone

Pete from Boston


Quote from: jwolfer on October 14, 2015, 07:01:16 PMNo chip on my shoulder, and I don't take it as a personal insult. But as an insult on the entire  region. Many up north hear a southern accent and automatically think stupid.

I guess this is where I'm detecting that you're arriving at this conversation with pre-existing insult, because what you're describing isn't happening in this conversation. 

QuoteWhile slavery was opposed in the abstract they certainly did not want black people living among them, because in their view whites were the superior race.. The very definition of racist.

You're repeating my words back to me, paraphrased.

QuoteSo don't lecture on how horrible the South is or was, and don't whitewash.. no pun intended.. the role that New England had in slavery in this country.

Never lectured.  Acknowledged New England's role.  I'll even acknowledge Old England's complicity while we're at it.  I even went further and said folks up here showed wanton disregard for the rights and dignity of other races long before Southern slavery took root.  But none of this means a person descended from owned humans should not feel resentment about the Confederate flag.

jwolfer

#229
Quote from: Pete from Boston on October 14, 2015, 07:44:44 PM

Quote from: jwolfer on October 14, 2015, 07:01:16 PMNo chip on my shoulder, and I don't take it as a personal insult. But as an insult on the entire  region. Many up north hear a southern accent and automatically think stupid.

I guess this is where I'm detecting that you're arriving at this conversation with pre-existing insult, because what you're describing isn't happening in this conversation. 

QuoteWhile slavery was opposed in the abstract they certainly did not want black people living among them, because in their view whites were the superior race.. The very definition of racist.

You're repeating my words back to me, paraphrased.

QuoteSo don't lecture on how horrible the South is or was, and don't whitewash.. no pun intended.. the role that New England had in slavery in this country.

Never lectured.  Acknowledged New England's role.  I'll even acknowledge Old England's complicity while we're at it.  I even went further and said folks up here showed wanton disregard for the rights and dignity of other races long before Southern slavery took root.  But none of this means a person descended from owned humans should not feel resentment about the Confederate flag.
Erasing the Confederate flag and having it removed from any official capacity will not change history.  And honoring a flag that your ancestors fought under does not mean that that you support slavery or that your ancestors even held slaves.

I understand why descendants of slaves would be upset. Just as I don't like neighborhoods called "__ Plantation". If I were black, especially descended from slaves .. I would not want to live there.

I am actually enjoying the discussion of the matter but way off subject.. No hard feelings on my end.  I will stop

Rothman

Quote from: jwolfer on October 14, 2015, 08:01:54 PM
And honoring a flag that your ancestors fought under does not mean that that they support slavery or that their ancestors even held slaves

Have to disagree here.  Like I said, I give my ancestors that fought with the South more credit than just some superficial blind loyalty to a nifty colorful flag.  They knew what they were going to war for and knew what "southern values" really meant when it came to race relations.

Frankly, I trust the head of the Department of History at West Point on the matter.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Pete from Boston

I still maintain a lot of the answer comes down to fried chicken being much more deeply rooted in the south.  But what I don't know is, why?

Buffaboy

Quote from: jwolfer on October 14, 2015, 08:01:54 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on October 14, 2015, 07:44:44 PM

Quote from: jwolfer on October 14, 2015, 07:01:16 PMNo chip on my shoulder, and I don't take it as a personal insult. But as an insult on the entire  region. Many up north hear a southern accent and automatically think stupid.

I guess this is where I'm detecting that you're arriving at this conversation with pre-existing insult, because what you're describing isn't happening in this conversation. 

QuoteWhile slavery was opposed in the abstract they certainly did not want black people living among them, because in their view whites were the superior race.. The very definition of racist.

You're repeating my words back to me, paraphrased.

QuoteSo don't lecture on how horrible the South is or was, and don't whitewash.. no pun intended.. the role that New England had in slavery in this country.

Never lectured.  Acknowledged New England's role.  I'll even acknowledge Old England's complicity while we're at it.  I even went further and said folks up here showed wanton disregard for the rights and dignity of other races long before Southern slavery took root.  But none of this means a person descended from owned humans should not feel resentment about the Confederate flag.
Erasing the Confederate flag and having it removed from any official capacity will not change history.  And honoring a flag that your ancestors fought under does not mean that that you support slavery or that your ancestors even held slaves.

I understand why descendants of slaves would be upset. Just as I don't like neighborhoods called "__ Plantation". If I were black, especially descended from slaves .. I would not want to live there.

I am actually enjoying the discussion of the matter but way off subject.. No hard feelings on my end.  I will stop

I have a non-Caucasian relative who lives in Plantation, FL. She like the weather there, but I don't know what she thinks about the town name.

Honestly, I wouldn't have a problem living down south in a place like Charlotte, D.C. or the Research Triangle, given I've lived up north my whole life and that my grandparents grew up there. The cultural transition would likely be tough to handle though, and there are several states and areas I would avoid for political reasons.
What's not to like about highways and bridges, intersections and interchanges, rails and planes?

My Wikipedia county SVG maps: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Buffaboy

GCrites

Quote from: Pete from Boston on October 14, 2015, 08:59:32 PM
I still maintain a lot of the answer comes down to fried chicken being much more deeply rooted in the south.  But what I don't know is, why?

I don't know either. Fried chicken is so awesome that I don't see why everyone isn't into it. Screw health reasons; you don't have to eat it every day.

Pete from Boston

#234
Well, to bring things full circle, Wikipedia says fried chicken arrived with Scots and West Africans but spread around the South as a foodstuff of slaves:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fried_chicken

I haven't bothered to find a more reputable source yet, but it at least corroborates that fried chicken is a primarily Southern staple (we all know this already), which goes a long way toward answering the initial question.

empirestate

And on the topic of fried chicken, does anyone else observe racist undertones–or at least insensitive ones–in Popeye's' advertising?

AlexandriaVA

Quote from: empirestate on October 15, 2015, 09:32:16 AM
And on the topic of fried chicken, does anyone else observe racist undertones–or at least insensitive ones–in Popeye's' advertising?

Uncle Ben's, Aunt Jemima, etc etc

Pete from Boston


Quote from: empirestate on October 15, 2015, 09:32:16 AM
And on the topic of fried chicken, does anyone else observe racist undertones–or at least insensitive ones–in Popeye's' advertising?

I never see their ads.  Are they racist, or demographically targeted?

roadman65

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 15, 2015, 09:56:41 AM
Quote from: empirestate on October 15, 2015, 09:32:16 AM
And on the topic of fried chicken, does anyone else observe racist undertones–or at least insensitive ones–in Popeye's' advertising?

Uncle Ben's, Aunt Jemima, etc etc
Sambos a now defunct restaurant chain in Florida.  I do not know the whole story, but it had something to do with racism and the store was pressured to close it doors.  Something about the character that the restaurant was named for, who was supposed to be a young black kid, got some people upset, which I never fully understood given that Aunt Jemimah, and even in Tom & Jerry where you have that house owner that was always whipping Tom in some earlier cartoons, was depicted as a Southern Black Woman, never got pressured into non existence.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Brandon

Quote from: jwolfer on October 14, 2015, 08:01:54 PM
I understand why descendants of slaves would be upset. Just as I don't like neighborhoods called "__ Plantation". If I were black, especially descended from slaves .. I would not want to live there.

So what about the State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations?

Yes, that's the state's actual full name.  Providence Plantations was the area founded by Roger Williams.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

Buffaboy

#240
Quote from: roadman65 on October 15, 2015, 10:19:27 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on October 15, 2015, 09:56:41 AM
Quote from: empirestate on October 15, 2015, 09:32:16 AM
And on the topic of fried chicken, does anyone else observe racist undertones–or at least insensitive ones–in Popeye's' advertising?

Uncle Ben's, Aunt Jemima, etc etc
Sambos a now defunct restaurant chain in Florida.  I do not know the whole story, but it had something to do with racism and the store was pressured to close it doors.  Something about the character that the restaurant was named for, who was supposed to be a young black kid, got some people upset, which I never fully understood given that Aunt Jemimah, and even in Tom & Jerry where you have that house owner that was always whipping Tom in some earlier cartoons, was depicted as a Southern Black Woman, never got pressured into non existence.

A Google search with "Sambo" will give a firm definition on the term.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on October 15, 2015, 07:38:03 AM
Well, to bring things full circle, Wikipedia says fried chicken arrived with Scots and West Africans but spread around the South as a foodstuff of slaves:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fried_chicken

I haven't bothered to find a more reputable source yet, but it at least corroborates that fried chicken is a primarily Southern staple (we all know this already), which goes a long way toward answering the initial question.

That article has suffered from some disturbing edits.
What's not to like about highways and bridges, intersections and interchanges, rails and planes?

My Wikipedia county SVG maps: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Buffaboy

1995hoo

Quote from: Brandon on October 15, 2015, 10:34:32 AM
Quote from: jwolfer on October 14, 2015, 08:01:54 PM
I understand why descendants of slaves would be upset. Just as I don't like neighborhoods called "__ Plantation". If I were black, especially descended from slaves .. I would not want to live there.

So what about the State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations?

Yes, that's the state's actual full name.  Providence Plantations was the area founded by Roger Williams.

I recall there was a stupid referendum a few years ago about dropping "and Providence Plantations" from the name. It lost overwhelmingly with something like more than 75% voting against the proposal.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

jwolfer

#242
Quote from: Brandon on October 15, 2015, 10:34:32 AM
Quote from: jwolfer on October 14, 2015, 08:01:54 PM
I understand why descendants of slaves would be upset. Just as I don't like neighborhoods called "__ Plantation". If I were black, especially descended from slaves .. I would not want to live there.

So what about the State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations?

Yes, that's the state's actual full name.  Providence Plantations was the area founded by Roger Williams.
Language change over time. At the time RI was named plantation was a large commercial farm dedicated to one primary crop to make money, nor necessarily with slavery.

It's always interesting to see how language changes with time, word meanings shift, change or become specified.  I.e. apple at one point was generic for fruit, like the tree in garden of eden when originally translated to English apple just meant fruit

Pete from Boston


Quote from: jwolfer on October 15, 2015, 11:19:17 AMIt's always interesting to see how language changes with time, word meanings shift, change or become specified.  I.e. apple at one point was generic for fruit, like the tree in garden of eden when originally translated to English apple just meant fruit

"Corn" is similarly specific here and generic to grain elsewhere.

roadman65

I am surprised yet the Republicans have not forced the City of Liberal, KS to change their name yet.

Or that some group should change the name of Intercourse, PA because it is the proper name for sex. 

How about lets change Washington, DC name because its named after a man who kept slaves in his plantation called Mount Vernon.

While at it we can:
Change the name of Dixie Highway or the FL County named "Dixie."
Change the name of John F. Kennedy because of the controversy surrounding him.
Change the logo on Nabisco Cream of Wheat that features the creole chef in it.


Bottom line is everything named can be offensive in some way as we all are not perfect.  Nor have ideals in the past either that were.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

J N Winkler

Quote from: roadman65 on October 15, 2015, 11:34:53 AMI am surprised yet the Republicans have not forced the City of Liberal, KS to change their name yet.

Or that some group should change the name of Intercourse, PA because it is the proper name for sex.

In both cases, the cities get their names from older and innocuous meanings of the words liberal and intercourse respectively, so they are not good candidates for renaming on the basis of controversy.  A much better example is the actual town of White Settlement in Texas (a distant suburb of Fort Worth), which was named in contradistinction to a neighboring community that consisted primarily of Native Americans.  A vote to rename it failed in 2005 by a 10-to-1 margin.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

empirestate


Quote from: Pete from Boston on October 15, 2015, 10:04:27 AM

Quote from: empirestate on October 15, 2015, 09:32:16 AM
And on the topic of fried chicken, does anyone else observe racist undertones–or at least insensitive ones–in Popeye's' advertising?

I never see their ads.  Are they racist, or demographically targeted?

I'm sure they intend to be the latter. I don't find them overtly offensive myself, but I am stuck by their aesthetic as it recalls outmoded things like Song of the South or the Dumbo crows, which we have been advised are stereotypes to be avoided.


iPhone

1995hoo

Song of the South is an excellent movie that's misunderstood by way too many people. (I saw it in the theatre as a kid and nowadays I have a copy purchased abroad.) Disney WILL eventually re-release it, regardless of their current corporate position, because they'll want to make more money off it before the copyright expires.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

vdeane

Quote from: 1995hoo on October 15, 2015, 12:57:19 PM
Song of the South is an excellent movie that's misunderstood by way too many people. (I saw it in the theatre as a kid and nowadays I have a copy purchased abroad.) Disney WILL eventually re-release it, regardless of their current corporate position, because they'll want to make more money off it before the copyright expires.
Don't expect the copyright to EVER expire.  Disney is a major driver of copyright term extensions; it happens like clockwork every time Micky Mouse is slated to go public domain (which it would have decades ago under the rules that were in place when it was produced).
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

1995hoo

Quote from: vdeane on October 15, 2015, 01:20:09 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 15, 2015, 12:57:19 PM
Song of the South is an excellent movie that's misunderstood by way too many people. (I saw it in the theatre as a kid and nowadays I have a copy purchased abroad.) Disney WILL eventually re-release it, regardless of their current corporate position, because they'll want to make more money off it before the copyright expires.
Don't expect the copyright to EVER expire.  Disney is a major driver of copyright term extensions; it happens like clockwork every time Micky Mouse is slated to go public domain (which it would have decades ago under the rules that were in place when it was produced).

It's not quite that simple with respect to Mickey Mouse. Mickey is both copyrighted and trademarked, as are many other major Disney characters, and the trademark doesn't expire unless they abandon it. That means they can still protect the character even if a particular cartoon isn't protected by copyright.

I believe the copyright period on their earliest cartoons is due to expire within the next few years. Guess we'll see what happens then. Issues of this sort are all the more complicated these days due to global commerce and communications. Not all countries provide the same copyright duration–Japanese law, for example, provides a notably shorter period and I believe Song of the South is in the public domain there.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.