Cape May-Lewes Ferry tagged as US-9 on Google

Started by _Simon, February 20, 2013, 12:53:35 AM

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_Simon

I know it's not an official designation but I remember seeing it designated this way on a paper map years ago.  I think this is one of the few occasions when I would make an exception to my strong love of END signage.  I think NJDOT should even put the standard "Welcome to New Jersey" and "Entering Lower Twp" signage up;  you entered NJ by car.

https://maps.google.com/?ll=38.940051,-74.988899&spn=0.099471,0.234318&t=h&z=13


cpzilliacus

Quote from: _Simon on February 20, 2013, 12:53:35 AM
I know it's not an official designation but I remember seeing it designated this way on a paper map years ago.  I think this is one of the few occasions when I would make an exception to my strong love of END signage.  I think NJDOT should even put the standard "Welcome to New Jersey" and "Entering Lower Twp" signage up;  you entered NJ by car.

https://maps.google.com/?ll=38.940051,-74.988899&spn=0.099471,0.234318&t=h&z=13

U.S. 9 is posted in Delaware, (and posted E-W) between the U.S. 13 at Laurel and the ferry.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

_Simon

Right, but the ferry parking lot and the boat aren't officially US-9.  The designation ends short of the ferry on both sides.

NE2

Quote from: _Simon on February 20, 2013, 01:05:08 AM
Right, but the ferry parking lot and the boat aren't officially US-9.  The designation ends short of the ferry on both sides.
http://route.transportation.org/Documents/USRN_page_001_to_054.pdf shows no gap.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

_Simon

Quote from: NE2 on February 20, 2013, 01:54:35 AM
Quote from: _Simon on February 20, 2013, 01:05:08 AM
Right, but the ferry parking lot and the boat aren't officially US-9.  The designation ends short of the ferry on both sides.
http://route.transportation.org/Documents/USRN_page_001_to_054.pdf shows no gap.

The mileage to the state line isn't included in any of the figures in that document or in real life.  SLD shows the route ending at the water's edge with no reference to a ferry being available.
http://www.state.nj.us/transportation/refdata/sldiag/00000009__-.pdf


jeffandnicole

The NJ SLDs are for reference purposes only, and may not necessarily reflect the actual routing.  The SLD is only showing the road as it exists in NJ. 

US 9 is indeed a multi-state road, that goes from Delaware thru New Jersey into New York State.  Ferries are considered part of the route.

MrDisco99


NE2

pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

KEVIN_224

Is that Lake Champlain crossing heading towards Vermont?

Duke87

#9
Quote from: NE2 on February 20, 2013, 06:24:56 PM
Quote from: MrDisco99 on February 20, 2013, 06:24:00 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 20, 2013, 08:21:12 AM
Ferries are considered part of the route.

Any other examples of this?

NY 114?

CT 148 and CT 160, although those ferries have ceased operation due to budget cuts, leaving both routes discontinuous.
NC 12
Any number of rural northern routes in Canada.

The case of US 9 is complicated by the fact that the ferry crosses a state line, and the ferry is not operated by either DOT, so neither state has reason to internally consider the route to continue past the dock.

US 10 is officially considered to be two separate routes, although the ferry connecting them across Lake Michigan is seasonal.


EDIT: To answer Kevin's question, NY 114 travels from Greenport down to East Hampton, via Shelter Island which is only accessible by ferry on either end. I drove it this past weekend. There is an error US 114 shield on Shelter Island.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: MrDisco99 on February 20, 2013, 06:24:00 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 20, 2013, 08:21:12 AM
Ferries are considered part of the route.

Any other examples of this?

Highway E18 between Stockholm or Kapellskär, Sweden and Ã...bo/Turku or NÃ¥dendal/Naantali, Finland.

Highway E20 between Stockholm and Tallinn, Estonia.  There's also a "missing" E20 ferry connection between Kingston upon Hull, England and Esbjerg, Denmark.

Highway E39 between Hirtshals, Denmark and Kristiansand, Norway.  E39 also has at least 5 domestic ferries along its route in coastal Norway (and had more in the past, but several have been replaced by subsea tunnels.

Highway E65 between Ystad, Sweden and Świnoujście, Poland.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

corco


cpzilliacus

Quote from: Duke87 on February 20, 2013, 06:49:31 PM
The case of US 9 is complicated by the fact that the ferry crosses a state line, and the ferry is not operated by either DOT, so neither state has reason to internally consider the route to continue past the dock.

But the Cape May-Lewes Ferry is operated by a public authority, the Delaware River & Bay Authority (DRBA).
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

jeffandnicole

US 322 used to be a ferry crossing the Delaware, before the Comm Barry Bridge was built.

I'm sure ferries crossing state lines, with the route number considered part of the ferry's routing, used to be a frequent occurrence in the early - mid 1900's.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 21, 2013, 09:23:08 AM
US 322 used to be a ferry crossing the Delaware, before the Comm Barry Bridge was built.

I'm sure ferries crossing state lines, with the route number considered part of the ferry's routing, used to be a frequent occurrence in the early - mid 1900's.

White's Ferry between Dickerson, Maryland and Leesburg Virginia can probably be  considered an interstate ferry, though the entire  Potomac River belongs to  Maryland (up to the high-water mark on the Virginia shoreline).

On the Virginia side, Va. 655 (White's Ferry Road), a secondary system road, leads from the ferry landing to U.S.15.

On the Maryland side, un-numbered River Road (gravel surface) and un-numbered White's Ferry Road lead to the landing.  Both are secondary roads maintained by Montgomery County.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

corco

wait, the Alaska Marines are numbered routes?

texaskdog

Why is there no bridge there?  Couldn't there be a ponchotrain type bridge with a rise in the middle?

ekt8750

Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 20, 2013, 08:58:00 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on February 20, 2013, 06:49:31 PM
The case of US 9 is complicated by the fact that the ferry crosses a state line, and the ferry is not operated by either DOT, so neither state has reason to internally consider the route to continue past the dock.

But the Cape May-Lewes Ferry is operated by a public authority, the Delaware River & Bay Authority (DRBA).

Right and the DRBA operates separately from either DOT.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: texaskdog on July 06, 2015, 03:01:23 PM
Why is there no bridge there?  Couldn't there be a ponchotrain type bridge with a rise in the middle?

Certainly.  Or like the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel.  But the DRBA has always figured the traffic flow doesn't justify the expense.

If they did build it though, they would come.

DeaconG

Quote from: texaskdog on July 06, 2015, 03:01:23 PM
Why is there no bridge there?  Couldn't there be a ponchotrain type bridge with a rise in the middle?

A. Money.
B. You'll end up with the same situation at Norfolk Roads-national security; the Navy certainly wouldn't go for it and most likely you'd have a problem with the new Panamax ships, which would then force you into a bridge-tunnel system which takes you back to:
C. Money.

I always belived they'd do it in my lifetime, now it one of those things I don't expect to see built ever.
Dawnstar: "You're an ape! And you can talk!"
King Solovar: "And you're a human with wings! Reality holds surprises for everyone!"
-Crisis On Infinite Earths #2

texaskdog


froggie

Part of the reason, as Jeff suggests, is that the traffic volumes would not support such a bridge or bridge/tunnel.  This is also related to the road network.  The CBBT works because it would be a hellacious detour around to the Bay Bridge and backtrack in order to reach over half of the Delmarva.  It's also a significant mileage and time savings for Hampton Roads travelers who are heading to Wilmington or points north.  During the several years I was stationed in Norfolk, I calculated the savings at 80 miles and 45 minutes, and that was BEFORE factoring I-64/I-95/DC/Baltimore traffic delays.

The savings for North Jersey travelers of a Cape May-Lewes fixed span are much less...I'm estimating about a 20 mile savings over taking DE 1/Del Mem Bridge/NJ Turnpike.  The savings for trucks would be basically nil, as they're forced off the Parkway at Exit 105.

But a bigger reason for no bridge is physical/bathymetric in nature, and the reason why comparisons to the CBBT don't work well.  The CBBT was workable because, except at the channels, most of the water is 40ft or less in depth.  The problem with a Cape May-Lewes crossing is that you have about a 2.5 mile swath where the water is 60ft or deeper, reaching as much as 130ft in a few spots.  The shallowest deep spot I can find in potential bridge or tunnel area is still close to 100ft.  What this means is you have a significant length of potential bridge that would have to have very deep bridge piers, and a tunnel that would have to reach twice as deep as the CBBT.  Both of these would seriously skyrocket the cost of a bridge/tunnel...to the point where it's just not cost-effective.

dgolub

Quote from: MrDisco99 on February 20, 2013, 06:24:00 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 20, 2013, 08:21:12 AM
Ferries are considered part of the route.

Any other examples of this?

Well, most of the ones I was thinking of are already taken, but how about AK 7?

SectorZ

Quote from: Duke87 on February 20, 2013, 06:49:31 PM
Quote from: NE2 on February 20, 2013, 06:24:56 PM
Quote from: MrDisco99 on February 20, 2013, 06:24:00 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 20, 2013, 08:21:12 AM
Ferries are considered part of the route.

Any other examples of this?

NY 114?

CT 148 and CT 160, although those ferries have ceased operation due to budget cuts, leaving both routes discontinuous.
NC 12
Any number of rural northern routes in Canada.

The case of US 9 is complicated by the fact that the ferry crosses a state line, and the ferry is not operated by either DOT, so neither state has reason to internally consider the route to continue past the dock.

US 10 is officially considered to be two separate routes, although the ferry connecting them across Lake Michigan is seasonal.


EDIT: To answer Kevin's question, NY 114 travels from Greenport down to East Hampton, via Shelter Island which is only accessible by ferry on either end. I drove it this past weekend. There is an error US 114 shield on Shelter Island.

The Rocky Hill ferry (CT 160) is closed for the season?



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