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German Autobahns

Started by Chris, May 03, 2009, 07:08:56 AM

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Chris

Yep. The full name is a Regelquerschnitt (RQ) which is a cross section of a road. The standard cross section is RQ 29,5 for a 4-lane Autobahn. The German Wikipedia has more on it:

Richtlinien für die Anlage von Straßen — Querschnitt


Special K

Just had my first experience with driving the autobahn last week.  Cologne to Munich via A3 and A9.  I thought it might be fun, but it just ended up being exhausting.  So many vehicle speeds to be aware of.  Constantly looking ahead for slower traffic that might pull into my lane and looking back for traffic that might run me over.  I've never changed lanes so often in my life.

Chris

I have the same feeling when doing a long-distance trip in Germany. Especially if you just want to drive about 130 km/h (80 mph) you're constantly sandwiched between trucks and slower cars and BMW's, Mercedeses and Audi's. Driving fast is fun for about an hour or two, but on longer hauls it's tiring.

What day did you drive? Usually Fridays are the worst but all work days have high truck volumes. Saturdays and Sundays are generally better as long as you avoid a few busy Saturdays in July and early August.

agentsteel53

Quote from: Chris on July 03, 2012, 03:28:44 PMDriving fast is fun for about an hour or two,

at which point... you're there!  :sombrero:

I was comfortable doing about 170-180 km/h, at which point I think I found a good balance between slow and fast vehicles.
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Special K

#129
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 03, 2012, 03:32:57 PM
Quote from: Chris on July 03, 2012, 03:28:44 PMDriving fast is fun for about an hour or two,

at which point... you're there!  :sombrero:

I was comfortable doing about 170-180 km/h, at which point I think I found a good balance between slow and fast vehicles.

We traveled on a Tuesday.  I found that 180km/h was still an inadequate speed to maintain in the left lane.  Plus, it seemed that any time I could let loose, there was another interchange looming ahead with another speed reduction.  I tended to maintain 150 in the center lane and then latch on to a line of speed demons after they passed on the left.

I should also mention the difficulty with reading guide and warning signs at these speeds, especially when some of the text is ~6" high and often there is foliage that comes right up to the guardrail, obscuring the sign's message until you're almost on top of the sign.

The interesting thing was being passed by the ICE train when we paralleled the tracks for a short time.

Chris

A section of A20 collapsed in Northern Germany. It was built on a bog using piling. The Autobahn started to subside and they closed one half soon after it. But before the investigation was completed, the whole thing collapsed. The thought is that the piles have broken off. This section is only 12 years old.


SignBridge

I always thought the Germans built better than that. I'd expect this on the New York Thruway.

Rothman

Quote from: SignBridge on October 09, 2017, 07:46:13 PM
I always thought the Germans built better than that. I'd expect this on the New York Thruway.
Heh.  After the Schoharie bridge collapse, I believe the Thruway updated its procedures to prevent just a thing like this from happening.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

bing101


Kniwt

Quote from: bing101 on August 05, 2018, 04:17:20 PM
DSZumaher does a film of the A9 in Germany.

The thing that stands out most to me is the near-total (and sometimes total) lack of a left shoulder. At autobahn speeds, that seems somewhat ... unnerving.

Road Hog

Having lived in Deutschland for 5 years of driving age, I'll tell you autobahns are slightly overrated by Americans. They're great freeways for sure, but still dominated by old-school cloverleafs. And most people still cruise at 80 mph – never once got my doors blown by a 911 in the left lane.

SignBridge

V-e-r-y I-n-t-e-r-e-s-t-i-n-g...........

Chris

Quote from: Kniwt on August 05, 2018, 05:55:11 PM
The thing that stands out most to me is the near-total (and sometimes total) lack of a left shoulder. At autobahn speeds, that seems somewhat ... unnerving.

Left shoulders appear to be a North American thing. Very few freeways in Europe have them.

J N Winkler

I don't think full-width left shoulders are default provision on Chinese expressways either.  At the moment I am going through a set of construction drawings for a new segment of expressway north of Chongqing, and the narrowest typical cross-section calls for vestigial paved left shoulders with a mall 2 m wide between guardrail that is to be planted with shrubbery.  Since the topography is mountainous and the route will have a number of tunnels and valley viaducts, there are some segments with separated carriageways and these too have narrow left shoulders.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

mgk920

Quote from: Chris on August 06, 2018, 08:47:14 AM
Quote from: Kniwt on August 05, 2018, 05:55:11 PM
The thing that stands out most to me is the near-total (and sometimes total) lack of a left shoulder. At autobahn speeds, that seems somewhat ... unnerving.

Left shoulders appear to be a North American thing. Very few freeways in Europe have them.

And I have zero doubt that USA interstates are held in a similar regard by many German road and driving enthusiasts, including dreaming of trips to the USA just to drive them.

Mike

Chris

This recently expanded expressway from Chengdu to Pengzhou in Sichuan also features no left shoulders:



A2 Utrecht - Amsterdam in the Netherlands does feature left shoulders, pretty wide ones as well. These are probably designed to add a sixth lane if traffic volumes require it. Present-day volumes are between 190,000 and 200,000 vehicles per day, it is the busiest intercity freeway in Europe.


A2 Utrecht - Breukelen by European Roads, on Flickr

Joe The Dragon

Quote from: Chris on August 06, 2018, 11:18:51 AM
This recently expanded expressway from Chengdu to Pengzhou in Sichuan also features no left shoulders:





Different speed limits per lane?

vdeane

Quote from: mgk920 on August 06, 2018, 10:36:58 AM
Quote from: Chris on August 06, 2018, 08:47:14 AM
Quote from: Kniwt on August 05, 2018, 05:55:11 PM
The thing that stands out most to me is the near-total (and sometimes total) lack of a left shoulder. At autobahn speeds, that seems somewhat ... unnerving.

Left shoulders appear to be a North American thing. Very few freeways in Europe have them.

And I have zero doubt that USA interstates are held in a similar regard by many German road and driving enthusiasts, including dreaming of trips to the USA just to drive them.

Mike
It's ironic that speed limits are so much lower in the US when engineering standards are so much higher.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

SignBridge

Vdeane, except for the question of left shoulders, in what ways are American engineering standards higher than European standards? I've read a lot about the Autobahn System and it seems to me their engineering is more painstaking than ours, at least in what was West Germany. The East is another story. The Germans are willing to spend more money for a better road. Our Interstates are as cheaply built as the states can get away with and the New York Thruway is a prime example. Remember the Schoharie Creek bridge disaster or was that before your time? The New Jersey Turnpike however, is a notable exception to American practice and is probably the closest thing in America to the Autobahns.

J N Winkler

German standards for horizontal curvature on the Autobahn are much stricter than those that apply to Interstates.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

vdeane

#145
Quote from: SignBridge on August 06, 2018, 08:55:10 PM
Vdeane, except for the question of left shoulders, in what ways are American engineering standards higher than European standards? I've read a lot about the Autobahn System and it seems to me their engineering is more painstaking than ours, at least in what was West Germany. The East is another story. The Germans are willing to spend more money for a better road. Our Interstates are as cheaply built as the states can get away with and the New York Thruway is a prime example. Remember the Schoharie Creek bridge disaster or was that before your time? The New Jersey Turnpike however, is a notable exception to American practice and is probably the closest thing in America to the Autobahns.
I wasn't talking about pavement depth and whatnot (though Michigan tried using a Euro-style roadbed for a while and it didn't work... I suspect weather/climate is a bigger factor, since Europe has MUCH milder winters than we do), but about roadway geometry.  Take a look at the service plaza in the video, for example.  You take what is practically a 90 degree turn and then are immediately on the autobahn, with a merge area that is, at best, the size of the merge areas on much straighter ramps on roads built in the 50s here, for a road that probably has a speed limit of 81 mph if it has one at all.  Much narrower median, too.

As for the Schoharie Creek Bridge collapse... my parents weren't even married yet when that happened!  Also too young to have even the slightest clue where the boundary between East Germany and West Germany was, other than Berlin being on the East side.

It's for the short merge area and narrow to non-existent shoulders that I would find European freeways VERY intimidating to drive.  The fact that the signage is completely alien to what I'm used to (in particular, having to navigate by control cities rather than route number/direction) doesn't help.  Italian autostradas in particular look like the what the interstates would look like if they were built to the design standards of the Pulaski Skyway.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

SignBridge

Hey, (LOL) the Pulaski Skyway was a modern engineering marvel in its day! (1932) But seriously vdeane, some of your points are well taken. And I agree with you about the different signing system used on the Autobahn. It is a different orientation than our system and I actually think ours is better.

Chris

Quote from: J N Winkler on August 06, 2018, 09:22:08 PM
German standards for horizontal curvature on the Autobahn are much stricter than those that apply to Interstates.

There is still some Reichsautobahn alignment here and there. Sometimes they just expanded the existing road without major changes in alignment. And then there are still a a few original 1930s style Reichsautobahnen remaining, most notably portions of A8 in Southern Germany. They have no shoulders and tight curves.

From a Dutch perspective, it's a bit perplexing to see the unlimited speed with the design choices of German Autobahns. Interchanges are designed with much lower design standards in Germany than in the Netherlands, tight curves, 40-50 km/h ramps, no shoulders on ramps or acceleration lanes, two-way traffic with no dividing barrier on ramps, etc. Some of the design standards appear to be stuck in the 1950s. Germany still builds Autobahns brand new with features that were eliminated from Dutch motorway design 50 years ago.

jakeroot

#148
^^
The most perplexing part of the Autobahn, from my perspective, is the use of cloverleafs at so many junctions. I don't know if they're still installed, but I think there might be more in Germany per motorway-lane mile than in the US. Even here in the US, where cloverleafs ruled for so many years, I don't hear about new ones being installed almost ever. In fact, I don't know of any recent installs.

IMO, for a country that seems to despise the automobile, the Netherlands builds some wicked-crazy freeways. Probably some of the nicest in Europe. Too bad NL doesn't have any plans for unlimited sections! Maybe 140 limits should be considered.

Unless I'm mistaken, a full width shoulder is not required on Interstates with only two lanes in each direction (only three and up). In this way, our standards are not that far off from Germany, except for horizontal alignment and pavement thickness standards (two, ultimately, very important things). I believe the pavement quality of TX-130 near Austin has been called into question, but despite its 85 (135 km/h) limit, it only has basic inside shoulders. A very wide median, ultimately, but narrow shoulders.

Scott5114

Quote from: jakeroot on August 07, 2018, 05:15:27 AM
Even here in the US, where cloverleafs ruled for so many years, I don't hear about new ones being installed almost ever. In fact, I don't know of any recent installs.

Oklahoma is still building them (are you surprised?). They put one in on the Durant bypass sometime after 2010.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef



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