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Author Topic: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor  (Read 8217 times)

airforceguy

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U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« on: November 30, 2009, 09:39:52 PM »

MDOT has finally put the plans for widening U.S. 23 between M-14 and I-96. For the most part I like the plans and I'm glad that tolling is one of the preferred options. Also it seems MDOT is really gung-ho now on SPUI's and roundabouts at interchanges. The plans can be accessed at this link http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,1607,7-151-9621_11058-226949--,00.html
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Hellfighter

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2009, 12:26:12 AM »

That stretch is a nightmare, especially during winter!
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leifvanderwall

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2009, 10:06:35 AM »

MDOT is considering tolling that stretch? It would be the first time an US Highway Expressway would be tolled (No, I'm not including US 51 on the NW Tollway in Illinois). That stretch of US 23 definitely needs to be widened.
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Hellfighter

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2009, 10:16:35 AM »

That Joy Road bridge needs to be raised!
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Brandon

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2009, 11:13:05 AM »

MDOT has finally put the plans for widening U.S. 23 between M-14 and I-96. For the most part I like the plans and I'm glad that tolling is one of the preferred options. Also it seems MDOT is really gung-ho now on SPUI's and roundabouts at interchanges. The plans can be accessed at this link http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,1607,7-151-9621_11058-226949--,00.html

They look like good plans.  The roundabouts should be fairly easy for people used to Michigan Lefts to navigate IMHO.  The full tolling instead of a silly HOT lane option is better.  One, it would generate more revenue that could used for future improvements (or paying off the cost of the improvements to be made in MDOT's proposal).  Two, it would mean that the gas tax could be held steady or lowered (provided tolling is used on other freeways).  If MDOT opts for full tolling, I would strongly suggest they join EZ Pass ASAP and get the bridges (Mackinac, Blue Water, Ambassador, and International) and the tunnel on EZ Pass as well.  It's used in Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio, so it would make sense to use it in Michigan.
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Hellfighter

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2009, 09:56:28 PM »

There we go, put a paid HOV lane on I-75 from Clarkston to Trenton, and make it EZ-Pass.
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froggie

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2009, 06:36:17 AM »

Quote
It would be the first time an US Highway Expressway would be tolled (No, I'm not including US 51 on the NW Tollway in Illinois).

Not quite correct.  US 412 does it presently in Oklahoma.
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Brandon

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2009, 10:43:53 AM »

Quote
It would be the first time an US Highway Expressway would be tolled (No, I'm not including US 51 on the NW Tollway in Illinois).

Not quite correct.  US 412 does it presently in Oklahoma.

However, it would be on par with US-51 in not having a signed US route as a toll free alternative.  US-412, IIRC, has Senic US-412 as the alternate.  US-51 just has IL-251.  US-23 would have M-14/I-275/I-96 for that stretch.
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Hellfighter

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2009, 11:26:41 AM »

I don't think most people would take M-14 to I-96 just to avoid the toll.  If they really wanted to avoid the toll, they'd just head up I-75.
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rawmustard

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2009, 12:14:22 PM »

I don't think most people would take M-14 to I-96 just to avoid the toll.  If they really wanted to avoid the toll, they'd just head up I-75.

People coming from Detroit would use I-75, but usually those in western Wayne County would use I-275 N to I-96 W. Really, the most traffic that would use the proposed rebuilt section would be heading between AA-Ypsi and I-96. Given that, I have to wonder why a stack interchange wouldn't be considered over a cloverleaf that would leave all that space in the middle. (Yes, whatever maintenance building exists there now should be relocated regardless.)
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Stephane Dumas

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2009, 04:38:11 PM »

There we go, put a paid HOV lane on I-75 from Clarkston to Trenton, and make it EZ-Pass.

Or a ETL (Express Toll Lane, set-up similar to I-95 in Maryland) on I-75. Come to think of it,let's add US-23 south of AA down to Toledo as well, with direct ramps linking to OH Tpk only to EZ-Pass/I-pass users. ;)
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Terry Shea

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2009, 06:25:29 PM »

Tolls suck, period.  I can't see Michigan going for this or anyone driving on it if they go ahead with it.
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thenetwork

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2009, 08:28:47 PM »

If MDOT was to toll that stretch of US 23, could the toll revenue also be used to rebuild the US-23 stretch through Milan to Interstate standards to perhaps garner an I-475 designation/extention from Toledo to Flint?
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Hellfighter

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2009, 08:59:28 PM »

If MDOT was to toll that stretch of US 23, could the toll revenue also be used to rebuild the US-23 stretch through Milan to Interstate standards to perhaps garner an I-475 designation/extention from Toledo to Flint?

Maybe, but that should get I-73 before I-475
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thenetwork

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2009, 04:29:05 PM »

If MDOT was to toll that stretch of US 23, could the toll revenue also be used to rebuild the US-23 stretch through Milan to Interstate standards to perhaps garner an I-475 designation/extention from Toledo to Flint?

Maybe, but that should get I-73 before I-475

I had thought that the original plan was to have the I-73 Corridor in MI follow the current US-223 alignment to Jackson via Blissfield & Adrian, but for the most part M-DOT has pretty much killed any chance of any I-73 stretch in the state, no?



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Hellfighter

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2009, 05:56:37 PM »

If MDOT was to toll that stretch of US 23, could the toll revenue also be used to rebuild the US-23 stretch through Milan to Interstate standards to perhaps garner an I-475 designation/extention from Toledo to Flint?

Maybe, but that should get I-73 before I-475

I had thought that the original plan was to have the I-73 Corridor in MI follow the current US-223 alignment to Jackson via Blissfield & Adrian, but for the most part M-DOT has pretty much killed any chance of any I-73 stretch in the state, no?






Indeed, if you look here, this was where I-73 was to have split off US-23 to head toward Adrian...

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=41.785649,-83.694341&spn=0.01184,0.027874&z=16
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JREwing78

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2016, 05:03:42 PM »

Yes, I'm digging up a moldy old thread. But construction is finally starting on work to address congestion issues on US-23 north of Ann Arbor.

Except, it's not a widening, per se. It's something called a Flex Route, which basically translates to "We're too cheap to deal with congestion properly." It involves widening the shoulders to allow for an occasional third lane - but it doesn't even run all the way to I-96.

I don't see how this isn't a complete waste of time and money v.s. widening to 3 lanes in each direction permanently. It's not like traffic levels on US-23 don't warrant a widening as it sits now.

US 23 down to one lane nights, early mornings
http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/local/community/livingston-county/2016/11/17/us-23-down-one-lane-nights-early-mornings/94031248/

U.S. 23 construction of Flex Route starting Monday
http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/local/community/livingston-county/2016/11/03/mdot-discuss-us-23-overhaul-flex-route-plans-nov-9/93158034/

MDOT officials discuss US 23 revamp
http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/local/community/livingston-county/2016/10/03/mdot-officials-discuss-us-23-revamp/91472188/

See the future 8 Mile Road overpass
http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/local/community/livingston-county/2016/11/10/see-future-8-mile-road-overpass/93583650/
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marleythedog

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2016, 05:23:57 PM »

Except, it's not a widening, per se. It's something called a Flex Route, which basically translates to "We're too cheap to deal with congestion properly." It involves widening the shoulders to allow for an occasional third lane - but it doesn't even run all the way to I-96.

It is a clever end run around having to build a proper inner shoulder like they'd have to do for a proper widening. "It's not a third lane; it's a shoulder we occasionally allow driving on!" The planner in one of the videos claims they'd need more right of way and to push the existing lanes outward to fit the third lanes plus shoulders. Even at that, the claimed $600M seems insane. And MDOT's claim that the technology to do this didn't exist 10 years ago is also silly; pretty sure Europe has been doing this kind of thing for decades.
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JREwing78

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2016, 06:28:11 PM »

Except, it's not a widening, per se. It's something called a Flex Route, which basically translates to "We're too cheap to deal with congestion properly." It involves widening the shoulders to allow for an occasional third lane - but it doesn't even run all the way to I-96.

It is a clever end run around having to build a proper inner shoulder like they'd have to do for a proper widening. "It's not a third lane; it's a shoulder we occasionally allow driving on!" The planner in one of the videos claims they'd need more right of way and to push the existing lanes outward to fit the third lanes plus shoulders. Even at that, the claimed $600M seems insane. And MDOT's claim that the technology to do this didn't exist 10 years ago is also silly; pretty sure Europe has been doing this kind of thing for decades.

I agree with you that $600 million is insane, considering they're doing a 40+ mile 6-8 lane widening of I-39/90 in southern Wisconsin for about $1 billion, without any of this flex lane nonsense.
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Porksoda

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2016, 09:34:59 AM »

I got excited when I read the phrase "US-23 Widening," but I have to agree this sounds like a silly and expensive waste of time.

I spent last summer in Michigan, and US-23 from Toledo to Flint was always a quaint, but ultimately sad example of outdated and overloaded infrastructure. I think the first priority should be upgrading the low-speed cloverleaf at the US-23 and I-94 interchange. During Friday afternoon rush hours, I'd watch this interchange essentially bring both freeways to a crawl through Ann Arbor, and sometimes back up WB I-94 all the way to Ypsilanti.

There are a couple other partial-cloverleaf exits that lead to some scary low-speed merging or exiting; I think they were up near Fenton.

There might be some cheap gains to made through better control of truck traffic and better enforcement of left-lane traffic. Namely, keep semi trucks and slow drivers out of the left lane! I'm sure everybody in Michigan has spent a decent part of their lives stuck behind a semi truck that's doing 61 mph in the left lane and literally takes MILES to pass a semi doing 60 mph in the right lane. I've also seen this lead to some downright nasty road-rage situations when people "cut in line" by passing on the right, then jumping back into the queue on the left at the last minute.

But at the end of the day, it's a straight road through flat, open countryside. There's no excuse for it not to be wide enough.

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Flint1979

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2017, 11:14:19 AM »

I've been pro widening US 23 for years. Every time I drive on it I end up complaining about it only being two lanes in each direction. It should be 3 lanes in each direction from Flint to the state line and 4 lanes in each direction from M-59 to US 12. It actually could probably get away with 2 lanes from US 12 to the Ohio border. This freeway ultimately serves as a bypass of Detroit, the freeway part starts and ends at I-75. Traveling on US 23 from Flint to Toledo saves you 25 miles vs. using I-75 through Detroit.
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westerninterloper

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2017, 09:49:08 PM »

I've been pro widening US 23 for years. Every time I drive on it I end up complaining about it only being two lanes in each direction. It should be 3 lanes in each direction from Flint to the state line and 4 lanes in each direction from M-59 to US 12. It actually could probably get away with 2 lanes from US 12 to the Ohio border. This freeway ultimately serves as a bypass of Detroit, the freeway part starts and ends at I-75. Traveling on US 23 from Flint to Toledo saves you 25 miles vs. using I-75 through Detroit.

I agree that 23 should be six lanes from A2 to Toledo, but that also means adding lanes to I-475 around west Toledo. All of those changes would require substantial rebuilds at the two railroad trestles on 23, and the Maumee River Bridge near Perrysburg. US 23 is always busy and crowded when I travel between Ann Arbor and Toledo. North of Ann Arbor, the road is frequently jammed - I avoid it if I'm heading up north.
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Flint1979

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2017, 06:45:08 AM »

I've been pro widening US 23 for years. Every time I drive on it I end up complaining about it only being two lanes in each direction. It should be 3 lanes in each direction from Flint to the state line and 4 lanes in each direction from M-59 to US 12. It actually could probably get away with 2 lanes from US 12 to the Ohio border. This freeway ultimately serves as a bypass of Detroit, the freeway part starts and ends at I-75. Traveling on US 23 from Flint to Toledo saves you 25 miles vs. using I-75 through Detroit.

I agree that 23 should be six lanes from A2 to Toledo, but that also means adding lanes to I-475 around west Toledo. All of those changes would require substantial rebuilds at the two railroad trestles on 23, and the Maumee River Bridge near Perrysburg. US 23 is always busy and crowded when I travel between Ann Arbor and Toledo. North of Ann Arbor, the road is frequently jammed - I avoid it if I'm heading up north.

US 23 is especially ugly between I-96 and I-94. Outside of that it's not the best but not the worst. I always thought coming SB off I-75 in Flint it needed to be widened there too since your coming off I-75 and just as much traffic is using US 23 as I-75 in that stretch.
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westerninterloper

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2017, 11:29:54 PM »

I've been pro widening US 23 for years. Every time I drive on it I end up complaining about it only being two lanes in each direction. It should be 3 lanes in each direction from Flint to the state line and 4 lanes in each direction from M-59 to US 12. It actually could probably get away with 2 lanes from US 12 to the Ohio border. This freeway ultimately serves as a bypass of Detroit, the freeway part starts and ends at I-75. Traveling on US 23 from Flint to Toledo saves you 25 miles vs. using I-75 through Detroit.

I agree that 23 should be six lanes from A2 to Toledo, but that also means adding lanes to I-475 around west Toledo. All of those changes would require substantial rebuilds at the two railroad trestles on 23, and the Maumee River Bridge near Perrysburg. US 23 is always busy and crowded when I travel between Ann Arbor and Toledo. North of Ann Arbor, the road is frequently jammed - I avoid it if I'm heading up north.

US 23 is especially ugly between I-96 and I-94. Outside of that it's not the best but not the worst. I always thought coming SB off I-75 in Flint it needed to be widened there too since your coming off I-75 and just as much traffic is using US 23 as I-75 in that stretch.

as mentioned earlier, it really is the western bypass for Detroit, and carries a lot of traffic going north of Detroit all points south of Detroit. Probably could support six lanes from Toledo to Flint, even wider right around Ann Arbor.
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Flint1979

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Re: U.S. 23 widening in north of Ann Arbor
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2017, 11:13:27 PM »

I've been pro widening US 23 for years. Every time I drive on it I end up complaining about it only being two lanes in each direction. It should be 3 lanes in each direction from Flint to the state line and 4 lanes in each direction from M-59 to US 12. It actually could probably get away with 2 lanes from US 12 to the Ohio border. This freeway ultimately serves as a bypass of Detroit, the freeway part starts and ends at I-75. Traveling on US 23 from Flint to Toledo saves you 25 miles vs. using I-75 through Detroit.

I agree that 23 should be six lanes from A2 to Toledo, but that also means adding lanes to I-475 around west Toledo. All of those changes would require substantial rebuilds at the two railroad trestles on 23, and the Maumee River Bridge near Perrysburg. US 23 is always busy and crowded when I travel between Ann Arbor and Toledo. North of Ann Arbor, the road is frequently jammed - I avoid it if I'm heading up north.

US 23 is especially ugly between I-96 and I-94. Outside of that it's not the best but not the worst. I always thought coming SB off I-75 in Flint it needed to be widened there too since your coming off I-75 and just as much traffic is using US 23 as I-75 in that stretch.

as mentioned earlier, it really is the western bypass for Detroit, and carries a lot of traffic going north of Detroit all points south of Detroit. Probably could support six lanes from Toledo to Flint, even wider right around Ann Arbor.
That would be a great upgrade. I agree with six lanes from the Ohio line to about US 12 then eight lanes through A2 and all the way up to north of the M-59 interchange, then back down to six lanes the rest of the way into the I-75 multiplex. And speaking of which I-75 should also be widened between the split with US 23 and I-475 south of Flint, it's four lanes in those four miles then becomes six lanes again south of 475. North of the split it's six lanes.
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