National Parks

[inkyatari]

I don't think "upgrades" mean that much when it comes to preservation.  If anything, it means more visitation and more stress on the features meant to be protected.

Really there are some lower tier units in the Park System that probably meet the criteria of being significant enough to be visited on the level of a National Park.  The way I see it, a National Park should be the "best of the best" so to speak.  To me stuff like the Sleeping Bear Dunes, White Sands, or even a Canyon de Chelley are on the level of what you would experience at a National Park but lack the facilities of one.  On the flip side some National Parks probably shouldn't be in that "top tier" so to speak.  Places like Congaree and Biscayne National Parks come to mind as units that ought to be National Monuments at best.

However, there's a difference between national parks and monuments, albeit just really a technical one.  National parks are created by congress.  National monuments, by presidential decree.  That's really all the difference there is, for the most part.

[inkyatari]

I've been to all of Connecticut's NPS sites. 

Not too long ago, Illinois had only one National Park site, and Delaware had none.  Now it's Illinois 2, Delaware one.  The NPS needs to make Cahokia Mounds in Cahokia, IL a National Monument soon.  It's been talked about for some time, and given how it probably was the largest native settlement ever in North America, it should have been done years ago.

Also worth noting is that there's a strong push to upgrade Indiana Dunes to a full fledged National Park, from its National Lakeshore status.

Out of curiosity do you have any articles or things written on the topic?   I would probably say not only the Indiana Dunes but the Sleeping Bear Dunes would be worthy of an upgrade.

Here you go...

http://www.wndu.com/content/news/Indiana-Dunes-would-become-states-first-National-Park-under-new-legislation-415798673.html

[Max Rockatansky]

I don't think "upgrades" mean that much when it comes to preservation.  If anything, it means more visitation and more stress on the features meant to be protected.

Really there are some lower tier units in the Park System that probably meet the criteria of being significant enough to be visited on the level of a National Park.  The way I see it, a National Park should be the "best of the best" so to speak.  To me stuff like the Sleeping Bear Dunes, White Sands, or even a Canyon de Chelley are on the level of what you would experience at a National Park but lack the facilities of one.  On the flip side some National Parks probably shouldn't be in that "top tier" so to speak.  Places like Congaree and Biscayne National Parks come to mind as units that ought to be National Monuments at best.

However, there's a difference between national parks and monuments, albeit just really a technical one.  National parks are created by congress.  National monuments, by presidential decree.  That's really all the difference there is, for the most part.

True, but there used to be a natural heirarchy to the whole thing that has gotten watered down over time.  Really National Monuments used to carry a lot more weight before every President from Clinton onwards just started creating a bunch of new ones that are BLM managed.  There is no way something like the Ironwood Forest or Sonoran Desert National Monuments ought to carry any other designation than wildlife refuge.

[inkyatari]

I don't think "upgrades" mean that much when it comes to preservation.  If anything, it means more visitation and more stress on the features meant to be protected.

Given the financial state of Illinois, transferring Cahokia to the NPS could probably mean better preservation.

[Max Rockatansky]

I've been to all of Connecticut's NPS sites. 

Not too long ago, Illinois had only one National Park site, and Delaware had none.  Now it's Illinois 2, Delaware one.  The NPS needs to make Cahokia Mounds in Cahokia, IL a National Monument soon.  It's been talked about for some time, and given how it probably was the largest native settlement ever in North America, it should have been done years ago.

Also worth noting is that there's a strong push to upgrade Indiana Dunes to a full fledged National Park, from its National Lakeshore status.

Out of curiosity do you have any articles or things written on the topic?   I would probably say not only the Indiana Dunes but the Sleeping Bear Dunes would be worthy of an upgrade.

Here you go...

http://www.wndu.com/content/news/Indiana-Dunes-would-become-states-first-National-Park-under-new-legislation-415798673.html

Interesting, I'm glad that I stopped in last week and did some hiking along with fresh pictures then.  Now I really regret not stopping in at the visitor center and picking up a park map, I collect them for the National Parks and Monuments.  Any updates on where the legislation went?  I seem to recall bumping up Pinnacles to a National Park from Monument status wasn't exactly straight forward since it extended the boundary to include the Pinnacles Wilderness.

[texaskdog]

My top 10:  1-Yellowstone (so many different things to do), 2-Bryce Canyon.  3-Arches; 4-Glacier; 5-Rocky Mountain; 6-Zion; 7-Canyonlands; 8-Grand Canyon; 9-Big Bend; 10-Badlands.  Finally going to Crater Lake and Redwoods next week so my list may change.

[jwolfer]

I surprised i did not see any mention of Cumberland Island National Seashore in Georgia.

LGMS428

[SSOWorld]

Yellowstone
Grand Canyon
Zion (twice)
Bryce Canyon
Rocky Mt (twice)
Great Smoky Mts
Yosemite
Sequoia/Kings Canyon
Apostle Islands NL
White Sands NM
Saguaro
Hatteras NS
Lake Mead NRA
Muir Woods NM
Point Reyes NS
Glacier
Mt Rushmore-or-less
Devils Tower
That big lawn in the middle of DC.

[Max Rockatansky]

My top 10:  1-Yellowstone (so many different things to do), 2-Bryce Canyon.  3-Arches; 4-Glacier; 5-Rocky Mountain; 6-Zion; 7-Canyonlands; 8-Grand Canyon; 9-Big Bend; 10-Badlands.  Finally going to Crater Lake and Redwoods next week so my list may change.

Personal Top 10 for me based off the 46 National Parks I've been to:

1.  Yosemite
2.  Grand Canyon
3.  Yellowstone

Those are the big three in my book, I can't see any of the other national parks being anything more than second tier.  But with that in mind some of my other favorite include:

4.  Crater Lake
5.  Sequoia (Kings Canyon I consider separate and Sequoia has way easily accessed trails and has Mineral King)
6.  Bryce Canyon
7.  Arches
8.  Canyonlands
9.  Death Valley
10.  Carlsbad Caverns

I'm a huge sucker for mountains, scenic views, and good trails to run/hike on hence why I have so many top heavy Western parks.  Really my bottom five would be:

46:  Biscayne
45.  Congaree
44.  Shenandoah
43.  Saguaro (too used to the desert having lived in Phoenix)
42.  Joshua Tree

But that isn't to say that I've encounter any "bad" National Parks because they all have something I enjoyed.  Personally I'd say the most overrated park I've been to is Zion.  Really Zion is beautiful but I still think it's way behind the Grand Canyon and in my opinion even Bryce Camyon.  Really what hurts Zion for me is the crowds and having to compete to get in the park, I much rather go to Bryce and have a chill time or the other three National Parks in Utah.

I'll come up with a more comprehensive list for National Monuments maybe tonight?  Out of where I've been Canyon de Chelley, White Sands, Colorado, the Vermillion Cliffs, and Cedar Breaks stand out to me more than the others. 

[Thing 342]

Congaree
Denali
Grand Canyon
Kenai Fjords
Shenandoah
Virgin Island

Currently have plans to visit Smoky Mountains and Everglades.

[Max Rockatansky]

Thought that I would give this an update for National Monuments.  These are all the Monuments I've been too regardless of if they are NPS managed or not:

Agua Fria
Bears Ear
Berryessa-Snow Mountain
Cabrillo
California Coastal
Canyon de Chelley
Carrizo Plain
Casa Grande
Cascade-Siskiyou
Castillo de San Marcos
Castle Mountains
Cedar Breaks
Cesar Chavez
Chimney Rock
Chiricahua
Colorado
Devil's Tower
Devil's Postpile
Dinosaur
Florisant Fossil Beds
Fort Frederica
Fort Matanzas
Fort McHenry
Fort Ord
Fort Sumter
Giant Sequioa
Grand Canyon-Parashant
Grand Escalante
Jewel Cave
Lava Beds
Little Bighorn
Mojave Trails
Montezuma Castle
Mount St. Helens
Muir Woods
Natural Bridges
Navajo
Ocmulgee
Organ Pipe Cactus
Organ Mountains-Desert Peaks
Russel Cave
San Gabriel Mountains
Sand to Snow
Santa Rosa and San Jacinito Mountains
Sonoran Desert
Statue of Liberty
Sunset Volcanic Crater
Tonto
Tuzigoot
Vermilion Cliffs
Walnut Canyon
White Sands
Wupatki


Funny thing is that a lot of places I've been weren't National Monuments at the time.  I used to be able to keep a running tally in my head of what I had been to, but the National Monument designation has greatly expanded in the last quarter century.  I've driven within sight of Snake Town in Arizona several times but I don't count that given you'd have to be a Gila Tribe member to actually visit, shame since I would have the entire circuit of Arizona otherwise.

[inkyatari]

Funny thing is that a lot of places I've been weren't National Monuments at the time.  I used to be able to keep a running tally in my head of what I had been to, but the National Monument designation has greatly expanded in the last quarter century.  I've driven within sight of Snake Town in Arizona several times but I don't count that given you'd have to be a Gila Tribe member to actually visit, shame since I would have the entire circuit of Arizona otherwise.

Snake Town / Hohokam Pima National Monument actually encompasses a small section of I-10 south of Phoenix, like they were intending an interchange to be built there, so I count it.

https://www.nps.gov/maps/tools/park-tiles/#12/33.1873/-111.8741

[Max Rockatansky]

Funny thing is that a lot of places I've been weren't National Monuments at the time.  I used to be able to keep a running tally in my head of what I had been to, but the National Monument designation has greatly expanded in the last quarter century.  I've driven within sight of Snake Town in Arizona several times but I don't count that given you'd have to be a Gila Tribe member to actually visit, shame since I would have the entire circuit of Arizona otherwise.

Snake Town / Hohokam Pima National Monument actually encompasses a small section of I-10 south of Phoenix, like they were intending an interchange to be built there, so I count it.

https://www.nps.gov/maps/tools/park-tiles/#12/33.1873/-111.8741

Yeah, I know that's the case but it just doesn't feel legit to me to count it even though I have been over that stretch of I-10 hundreds of times.  It's like with the Jewel Cave, I didn't go in the cave but I did hike the canyons around it which makes it more legit of a claim to count it in my mind.  But really there is zero chance of ever seeing anything of substance at Snake Town given the tribal stance on monument visitation.  I'll have to match up some of my abandoned AZ 93 pics to see if they fit the map for a more legit claim   

[Rothman]

Keep in mind as well that the archaeological site was re-buried as well.  There is a local museum for those interested in Snaketown, though.

[inkyatari]

Yeah, I know that's the case but it just doesn't feel legit to me to count it even though I have been over that stretch of I-10 hundreds of times.  It's like with the Jewel Cave, I didn't go in the cave but I did hike the canyons around it which makes it more legit of a claim to count it in my mind.  But really there is zero chance of ever seeing anything of substance at Snake Town given the tribal stance on monument visitation.  I'll have to match up some of my abandoned AZ 93 pics to see if they fit the map for a more legit claim

They do have artifacts on display at Casa Grande Ruins from Snaketown, and we did go to Casa Grande as well, so what the heck.  I count it.

[Max Rockatansky]

Yeah, I know that's the case but it just doesn't feel legit to me to count it even though I have been over that stretch of I-10 hundreds of times.  It's like with the Jewel Cave, I didn't go in the cave but I did hike the canyons around it which makes it more legit of a claim to count it in my mind.  But really there is zero chance of ever seeing anything of substance at Snake Town given the tribal stance on monument visitation.  I'll have to match up some of my abandoned AZ 93 pics to see if they fit the map for a more legit claim

They do have artifacts on display at Casa Grande Ruins from Snaketown, and we did go to Casa Grande as well, so what the heck.  I count it.

I suppose that's true, I do remember the Snake Town display at Casa Grande.  Either way I think that I've explored Snake Town to the fullest extent possible that can be done.  Either way kind of interesting to consider Arizona has 18 National Monuments (off the top of my head I write this), I want New Mexico had the next highest count?  A good deal in both states had some basis in preservation of tribal culture.

[Max Rockatansky]

So a question came to mind today that I thought would be interesting for this thread, what existing non-National Park status NPS units would you deem worthy of consideration to be elevated to top status?  Obviously the Indiana Dunes has already come up in discussion so I'll throw out some of mine that I thought were among the top-tier locales managed by the NPS:

-  Canyon de Chelley National Monument
-  Mojave National Preserve
-  California Coastal National Monument
-  Giant Sequoia National Monument; maybe an extension of Sequoia National Park or greater consolidation along with Kings Canyon?
-  Point Reyes National Seashore
-  Sleeping Bear Dunes National Lake Shore
-  White Sands National Monument
-  Golden Gate National Recreation Area
-  Mount St. Helens National Volcanic Monument

Some other National Monuments managed by the BLM I thought were really top-tier would be:

-  Vermilion Cliffs National Monument
-  Grand Escalate National Monument


Granted those are just some of them off the top of my head and I'm just spit balling largely west coast stuff or places I've been fairly recently. 

[inkyatari]

So a question came to mind today that I thought would be interesting for this thread, what existing non-National Park status NPS units would you deem worthy of consideration to be elevated to top status?  Obviously the Indiana Dunes has already come up in discussion so I'll throw out some of mine that I thought were among the top-tier locales managed by the NPS:


-  Mount St. Helens National Volcanic Monument

Some other National Monuments managed by the BLM I thought were really top-tier would be:

-  Vermilion Cliffs National Monument
-  Grand Escalate National Monument


Granted those are just some of them off the top of my head and I'm just spit balling largely west coast stuff or places I've been fairly recently.

Mt. St. Helens is administered by the Forest service. That, and Vermillion Cliffs and Grand Staircase / Escalante would need to be transfered to the NPS to be made a full National Park.

I've had an idea about transferring Goose Lake Prairie, Morris Wetlands, Wm. G. Stratton, Gebhard Woods, I&M Canal State Trail, Illini, Starved Rock, Buffalo Rock, and Pecumsaugan Creek-Blackball Mines from the state of Illinois and hand them over to the NPS to create Illinois River Valley National Recreation Area.

I'd also hand over Des Plaines Conservation area from IL to the Forest Service, to add to Midewin National Tallgrass Prairie, as well as various parks in southern IL to the NFS for inclusion into the Shawnee National Forest.


I ran into a document from the early 80's that talked about the creation of Shawnee Hills National Recreation Area.  Interesting read.  I'll see if I can't find it again.


Ahh, here it is...

https://books.google.com/books/about/Shawnee_Hills_National_Recreation_Area_N.html?id=Bqg2AQAAMAAJ

Illinois and Delaware really got ripped off when it comes to National Park areas.

[Max Rockatansky]

^^^

Does anyone actually know if it is a "requirement" that a National Park be administered by the National Park Service?  I would venture the answer would be a "yes" given that something even as far flung as Gates of the Arctic National Park and Preserve technically has NPS staffing/administration.  With the National Monuments it seems that a lot of the new ones are so remote or so lightly visited that they were staying administered by whatever Federal management body they had prior.

[inkyatari]

Any updates on where the legislation went?

I haven't heard anything.  Time to search Thomas

https://www.congress.gov/search?q={%22congress%22:%22115%22,%22source%22:%22legislation%22,%22search%22:%22indiana%20dunes%22}&searchResultViewType=expanded

Apparently it's only been introduced.  No further action has been recorded as of yet.

[english si]

So a question came to mind today that I thought would be interesting for this thread, what existing non-National Park status NPS units would you deem worthy of consideration to be elevated to top status?

This is a question of what is a National Park, and what are other things that ought to be protected, but in different ways.

So, for instance, does a National Park need to be protected to a IUCN Category II level - is a Cat I going to have issues with the lack of human activity desired, is a Cat V (where UK National Parks tend to be) not protected enough?

Is 'promoting understanding and enjoyment of the special qualities of the national park by the public.' important? - as apparently that's one reason why Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty exist in the UK - that these areas don't have enough going on for visitors (though the lack of planning authority is perhaps one of the key issues - North Pennines AONB seems to only be an AONB due to crossing several administrative boundaries and making the politics of governance of an National Park tricky).

Does size matter - does it have to be bigger than a certain area?

Is it all about natural beauty, or do cultural issues, and unique but not pretty, natural things matter as well?

Is being away from human development important - is http://www.nationalparkcity.london/ totally insane (though it's not about making a National Park, but centralising and cementing in a conservate (even anti-) development philosophy into the Greater London Authority that would be hard to overcome politically in perpetuity, as well as improving the amount of green space, use of it, etc)?

[bulldog1979]

My list is pretty short. I've never been to a current National Park, although I have been to Mackinac Island State Park, which was Mackinac National Park. As for the rest of the list of NPS units:

Golden Gate National Recreation Area
Muir Woods National Monument
Point Reyes National Seashore
San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park
Keweenaw National Historical Park
Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore
Sleeping Bear Dunes National Lakeshore
Jefferson National Expansion Memorial
National Mall
Pennsylvania Avenue National Historic Site
Washington Monument
World War II Memorial

I saw several other DC-area units, but did not enter them, like the White House, the Lincoln Memorial, the Jefferson Memorial, or Ford's Theatre.

[english si]

Looking at US NPS sites in DC, the following London places I've been to are equivalent.

Royal Parks: Hyde Park, Kensington Gardens, Green Park, St James's Park, Regent's Park, Greenwich Park (inc Royal Observatory), Grosvenor Square
Royal Palaces: Tower of London, Kew Palace, Hampton Court Palace
Department of Culture, Media and Sport Executive Department run museums (cf Smithsonian, which is basically NPS units): Science Museum, Natural History Museum, British Museum, Imperial War Museum (and it's HMS Belfast subunit), National Maritime Museum (and it's Liverpool branch), Tate Modern, National Gallery

If the UK became part of the US, I'd imagine that the list of National Historic Sites, National Memorials, etc would be bigger than just this, with the UK's National Trust and English Heritage both partially taken by the feds. That said, I'd imagine that at least 10 of the 13 National Parks wouldn't be accepted by the US as National Parks.

[jmd41280]

My visited parks...

National Parks:
1. Shenandoah (VA)
2. Mt. Rainier (WA)
3. Cuyahoga Valley (OH)

National Monuments:
1. Castillo de San Marcos (FL)
2. Statue of Liberty (NJ/NY)

National Historic Sites:
1. Allegheny Portage Railroad (PA)
2. Pennsylvania Avenue (DC)

National Military Parks:
1. Gettysburg (PA)

National Battlefields:
1. Fort Necessity (PA)

National Memorials:
1. Flight 93 (PA)
2. Fort Caroline (FL)
3. Johnstown Flood (PA)
4. Lincoln Memorial (DC)
5. Jefferson Memorial (DC)
6. Washington Monument (DC)

National Seashores:
1. Assateague Island (MD)
2. Cumberland Island (GA)

National Rivers:
1. New River Gorge (WV)

[US 89]

Here's my list for national parks:

-Arches (UT)
-Bryce Canyon (UT)
-Canyonlands (UT)
-Capitol Reef (UT)
-Gateway Arch (MO) – though it wasn't a National Park when I was there
-Glacier (MT)
-Grand Canyon (AZ)
-Grand Teton (WY)
-Mesa Verde (CO)
-Yellowstone (WY)
-Zion (UT)