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German truck driving bans

Started by Chris, May 14, 2010, 05:13:59 PM

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Chris

Germany is one of several countries in Europe that impose truck driving bans on Sundays and Federal Holidays. Most neighboring countries do not impose such bans, hence situations arise at the borders.

One of the worst border issues is at the Dutch-German border on the A1 Freeway. location @ Gmaps
Approximately 10,000 trucks cross this border every day, 5,000 each way. Although a lot of truckers try to prevent heading into Germany at those holidays, not all truckers have this option, especially truckers from Poland, Russia, the Baltics, Ukraine and Belarus.

As the border rest area is only good for maybe 70 parking spaces, additional trucks have to line up at the shoulder. Before the recession, the trucks were parked on the shoulder for over 10 miles sometimes. As the Germans are not willing to cooperate with the Dutch to find a long-term solution, the Dutch have no other option than to manage it as good as possible. We have expanded several truck parking areas in the region. However, while this is a solution to the Sunday truck bans, it is not to the holiday truck bans, especially when they are during the workweek.

This is the result:








pictures by Timon91 (A Dutch road enthusiast)

I also made a timelapse video


Brandon

^^
That's insane!  There is no good reason why trucks should be prohibited from transporting goods on a Sunday or a holiday in the modern world.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

agentsteel53

yeah, that is incredibly medieval.  Worse than not being able to buy beer in the US on Sunday mornings.
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

mgk920

^^
You can buy beer after 0800 on Sundays here.

Yes, each USA state is different in that regard and some states' laws are absurdly silly.

I can't even imagine what life must be like along the German A30 when those rigs start rolling....

Mike

Truvelo

Wouldn't a better option be to allow trucks to use Autobahns only on Sundays?
Speed limits limit life

J N Winkler

Quote from: Chris on May 14, 2010, 05:13:59 PMAs the Germans are not willing to cooperate with the Dutch to find a long-term solution, the Dutch have no other option than to manage it as good as possible.

What is the cause of this German reluctance to help solve the problem?  It can't be because the Germans think their way is normative, can it?
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

aswnl

Quote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2010, 01:48:40 PMIt can't be because the Germans think their way is normative, can it?
Bei uns ist alles immer besser...
So yes it is.
And to make things even worse, there are differences in driving bans between protestant and catholic German states...

AZDude

So what is the reason trucks can't be driven on Sundays or Holidays?

bugo

#8
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2010, 01:48:40 PM
Quote from: Chris on May 14, 2010, 05:13:59 PMAs the Germans are not willing to cooperate with the Dutch to find a long-term solution, the Dutch have no other option than to manage it as good as possible.

What is the cause of this German reluctance to help solve the problem?  It can't be because the Germans think their way is normative, can it?

I'm sure it's organized religion.

J N Winkler

Nope, it's as aswnl says.  "With us everything is always better."  That is the German secular religion.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Scott5114

Reminds me of a line towards the beginning of Lord of the Flies: "We're the British, we're the best at everything!" They then proceed to promptly fuck everything up.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Bickendan

I think that was just to prove they were the best at doing that.

firefly

Quote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2010, 01:48:40 PM
What is the cause of this German reluctance to help solve the problem?  It can't be because the Germans think their way is normative, can it?
Wrong guess. The reason is that problem lies on the Dutch side of the border. There is nothing that German authorities could do there.

english si

The Brits have something similar when the French go on strike and blockade the ports (or just bad weather stopping the boats or small fire in the Chunnel). Normally the industrial action is over something like 'we want to retire at 45 and only work 25-hour weeks', so it happens fairly often. Parts of the Coast-bound carriageway of the M20 get turned into a lorry park, and the whole motorway closed (they tried a contraflow on one of the longer sections but it takes too long to set up, but you would have thought that they might leave the London-bound carriageway open - they are going to try again with movable barriers).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Stack

Chris

#14
Quote from: firefly on July 16, 2011, 09:08:27 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2010, 01:48:40 PM
What is the cause of this German reluctance to help solve the problem?  It can't be because the Germans think their way is normative, can it?
Wrong guess. The reason is that problem lies on the Dutch side of the border. There is nothing that German authorities could do there.

I agree, it's perfectly normal for the Germans to expect the Dutch to pave a few square miles of their land for 3,000 truck parking lots due to neighboring traffic laws.  :rolleyes:

The real problem is the border rest area, which is in Germany. The Germans refuse to enlarge it, or want to do anything to relieve this problem. Only a small portion that is on Dutch territory has been enlarged. As usual in Germany, the rest area is extremely outdated with far too few truck parking spots. This is a problem throughout Germany, tens of thousands of truck parking lots have to be added to the network. But it's easy for the Germans to say; Hey Dutch, it's your side of the border, we don't give a damn about our neighbors, solve it yourself.

firefly

This is just tosh. Parking space on German MSAs don't solve the Dutch problem of lorry congestions. The eastbound MSA on this particular border crossing is on the German side which means that no HGV is allowed to go there on Sunday anyway. I doesn't matter how large it is.

And if you think that German MSAs aren't good enough then simply stay away. No-one forces you to come here.

Brandon

Quote from: Chris on July 16, 2011, 04:25:47 PM
Quote from: firefly on July 16, 2011, 09:08:27 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2010, 01:48:40 PM
What is the cause of this German reluctance to help solve the problem?  It can't be because the Germans think their way is normative, can it?
Wrong guess. The reason is that problem lies on the Dutch side of the border. There is nothing that German authorities could do there.

I agree, it's perfectly normal for the Germans to expect the Dutch to pave a few square miles of their land for 3,000 truck parking lots due to neighboring traffic laws.  :rolleyes:

The real problem is the border rest area, which is in Germany. The Germans refuse to enlarge it, or want to do anything to relieve this problem. Only a small portion that is on Dutch territory has been enlarged. As usual in Germany, the rest area is extremely outdated with far too few truck parking spots. This is a problem throughout Germany, tens of thousands of truck parking lots have to be added to the network. But it's easy for the Germans to say; Hey Dutch, it's your side of the border, we don't give a damn about our neighbors, solve it yourself.

The real solution for Germany is to dump the ban and join real life.  Solves all the problems at once - don't need to pave in Holland, don't need to expand the rest area, etc, etc.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

Chris

The rest area on the border is accessible to trucks. However, its capacity is far too low, even on normal days. When the problems became larger in the early 2000's, and hinted at an expansion of the border rest area, the German local government quickly sold all available land to developers for an industrial area.

SP Cook

I have never heard of this before.  Seems like a grand idea.  Whatever one's religious beliefs, setting aside a day where the roads can be enjoyed without large trucks is pro-motorist.  And, setting aside a commerce-free day is pro-worker. 

agentsteel53

Quote from: SP Cook on July 18, 2011, 07:31:40 AMAnd, setting aside a commerce-free day is pro-worker. 

not sure if I follow your reasoning here ...
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

english si

Quote from: firefly on July 16, 2011, 05:27:09 PM
This is just tosh. Parking space on German MSAs don't solve the Dutch problem of lorry congestions. The eastbound MSA on this particular border crossing is on the German side which means that no HGV is allowed to go there on Sunday anyway. I doesn't matter how large it is.
The Dutch problem of lorry congestion is caused by the German lorry ban. It's up to the Germans, as its their fault (though you could arrogantly see it as the fault of the Dutch for not doing things the German way), to sort out the problem. The easiest way to keep the ban, but solve the problem of lorries clogging up Dutch highways as they wait to be allowed into Germany, is to provide a large amount lorry parking at the rest area and allow the lorries to turn down the slip road into the rest area (in the Netherlands) and into the car park in Germany, but to not let them out.

An additional solution, if even the lorries entering Germany is a problem is to swap which sides of the rest area is in what country (as a former customs/passport check the rest area is in both countries, with each half in the country you are heading into) so that the lorries don't enter Germany to use the rest area and car park.

firefly

Quote from: Brandon on July 16, 2011, 07:56:21 PM
The real solution for Germany is to dump the ban and join real life.  Solves all the problems at once - don't need to pave in Holland, don't need to expand the rest area, etc, etc.
Maybe you should get real first and accept that this ban is going to last. Lifting it doesn't solve anything, it just shifts a Dutch problem to Germany. There is no gain in that.

Quote from: english si on July 18, 2011, 11:26:37 AM
The Dutch problem of lorry congestion is caused by the German lorry ban.
No, it is actually caused by thick lorry drivers (and their dispatcher) for arriving at a border crossing on a time when they perfectly know that they can't pass.

Quote from: english si on July 18, 2011, 11:26:37 AMIt's up to the Germans, as its their fault (though you could arrogantly see it as the fault of the Dutch for not doing things the German way), to sort out the problem.
But blaming Germany for not following the Dutch way isn't arrogant, right.

If the Netherlands allow lorries to drive on Sunday then it is their business. But over here in Germany we have good reasons to ban HGVs for these 22 hours. SP Cook has already mentioned one. There is no way that we adjust our legislation to a small country that isn't affected by large scale freight transit as Germany is.

english si

Quote from: firefly on July 19, 2011, 01:42:25 PM
Quote from: english si on July 18, 2011, 11:26:37 AMIt's up to the Germans, as its their fault (though you could arrogantly see it as the fault of the Dutch for not doing things the German way), to sort out the problem.
But blaming Germany for not following the Dutch way isn't arrogant, right.
I'm not attacking Germany for not following the Dutch way, I'm attacking Germany for refusing to deal with the problem they have created in the Netherlands and calling that arrogant (blaming the truck drivers does nothing - those trucks want to be as close to the border as possible when the ban lifts and they can drive through Germany - the drivers don't want to be stuck the wrong side of Germany for longer than necessary and the dispatchers want the lorries to have goods in and to arrive at their destinations as soon as they can. It's not like they can all fill up at Europort, etc a couple of hours before the ban lifts as the boats and dockers don't do that). What you seem to be doing is exactly what I called arrogant - attacking the drivers, dispatchers and the Dutch for not following the German way.

As for the Dutch not being as affected by large scale freight transit, I find that hard to believe. The Netherlands seem to me to have some very large ports (and Anterwepen just south of the border in Flanders) and only a few routes to where the stuff that arrives need to go (E25, E30, E34, E35). Germany may have more freight, but it's also got more routes that the freight goes on and so we're talking about similar countries when it comes to freight transit.

Sykotyk

Quote from: english si on July 19, 2011, 07:04:50 PM
Quote from: firefly on July 19, 2011, 01:42:25 PM
Quote from: english si on July 18, 2011, 11:26:37 AMIt's up to the Germans, as its their fault (though you could arrogantly see it as the fault of the Dutch for not doing things the German way), to sort out the problem.
But blaming Germany for not following the Dutch way isn't arrogant, right.
I'm not attacking Germany for not following the Dutch way, I'm attacking Germany for refusing to deal with the problem they have created in the Netherlands and calling that arrogant (blaming the truck drivers does nothing - those trucks want to be as close to the border as possible when the ban lifts and they can drive through Germany - the drivers don't want to be stuck the wrong side of Germany for longer than necessary and the dispatchers want the lorries to have goods in and to arrive at their destinations as soon as they can. It's not like they can all fill up at Europort, etc a couple of hours before the ban lifts as the boats and dockers don't do that). What you seem to be doing is exactly what I called arrogant - attacking the drivers, dispatchers and the Dutch for not following the German way.

First off, if that's their regulation, that's their regulation. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't serve a purpose. And it's not the Dutch that are to blame for the problem. True, if you see, week after week, traffic back-ups on the freeways into Germany, you might think to do something about it. It is their problem to deal with. They obviously don't care about it or they would've done something already. The truckers obviously don't care, or they wouldn't park there. They're probably just happy to have a place to park.

Quote
As for the Dutch not being as affected by large scale freight transit, I find that hard to believe. The Netherlands seem to me to have some very large ports (and Anterwepen just south of the border in Flanders) and only a few routes to where the stuff that arrives need to go (E25, E30, E34, E35). Germany may have more freight, but it's also got more routes that the freight goes on and so we're talking about similar countries when it comes to freight transit.

True. But, it appears that 'this is just the way things are' and nobody really cares, or concerns themselves enough to do anything about it. No different in the U.S. when the truck stops and rest areas fill up and the excess trucks resort to parking on the on- and off-ramps. Nobody really cares. The states generally don't. The truckers generally don't. It's just the way it is.

Brandon

Quote from: firefly on July 19, 2011, 01:42:25 PM
Quote from: Brandon on July 16, 2011, 07:56:21 PM
The real solution for Germany is to dump the ban and join real life.  Solves all the problems at once - don't need to pave in Holland, don't need to expand the rest area, etc, etc.
Maybe you should get real first and accept that this ban is going to last. Lifting it doesn't solve anything, it just shifts a Dutch problem to Germany. There is no gain in that.

Quote from: english si on July 18, 2011, 11:26:37 AM
The Dutch problem of lorry congestion is caused by the German lorry ban.
No, it is actually caused by thick lorry drivers (and their dispatcher) for arriving at a border crossing on a time when they perfectly know that they can't pass.

Quote from: english si on July 18, 2011, 11:26:37 AMIt's up to the Germans, as its their fault (though you could arrogantly see it as the fault of the Dutch for not doing things the German way), to sort out the problem.
But blaming Germany for not following the Dutch way isn't arrogant, right.

If the Netherlands allow lorries to drive on Sunday then it is their business. But over here in Germany we have good reasons to ban HGVs for these 22 hours. SP Cook has already mentioned one. There is no way that we adjust our legislation to a small country that isn't affected by large scale freight transit as Germany is.

How does the German ban become a Dutch problem?  It's Germany can can rescind the ban and get with the countries around them.  The Netherlands don't need to do jack shit to accommodate Germany or their ban.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg



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