Tappan Zee Bridge replacement moving at a snail's pace

[cpzilliacus]

4 kilometers long, 8 lanes wide, over a shipping channel, designed by Parsons, built in America. Price tag: $700 Million.

I've been over that bridge. It is in South Carolina, where even Davis-Bacon "prevailing" (union) wagers are significantly less than they are in the New York Metropolitan Area.

As long as the Tappan Zee exceeds that figure eightfold, and will likely increase in price as construction starts, the financially responsible answer is a clear no-build. Unless and until the cost can be knocked down to under 2 Billion (still nearly thrice as much as the Cooper River bridge), then any new bridge will be little more than welfare spending to unions and politically favorable corporations.

I strongly disagree.  The Tappan Zee was cheaply built to begin with, and is vulnerable to an earthquake. It is definitely not the George Washington Bridge.

The Tappan Zee isn't even considered structurally deficient, nor are trucks restricted. Fears that the bridge will collapse like I-35W are overblown, and groups spreading that lie are generally those who will receive the welfare check.

Trucks were not restricted on the I-35W bridge before it failed, were they?

And similar arguments were used to obstruct and delay the reconstruction of the  old Woodrow Wilson Bridge (I-95 between Va. and Md., crossing the extreme southern tip of D.C.).

And note that I was personally in favor of collecting tolls from traffic crossing the reconstructed bridge.

If the problem is a capacity issue, then it can be fixed by converting the toll booth to license plate tolling like E-470 in Denver or 407 in Toronto feature (sorry unionized overpaid toll collectors, you're out!), and extending the fourth lane westbound to the Palisades Interstate Parkway. Furthermore, additional buses could be operated, perhaps even converting the reversible lane in the center to HOV only.  There are very easy and cost effective ways to add capacity without spending billions on a new bridge.

Or Maryland's Route 200.

Time-of-day tolling might make some sense here, but the bridge needs to be replaced anyway. 

As far as cashless tolling goes, the T-Z is part of the New York State Thruway system, and as such, a decision to go cashless should be made for the entire Thruway, not just this crossing.

[Perfxion]

As a person who been over this bridge many of times, avoiding the dreaded Cross Bronx expressway, I can fully state that this damn bridge needs to go! The bridge wasn't built like the GWB or the Brooklyn Bridge. It isn't in that great of shape. Hell, it has been stated that it is in worse shape the one on I-95 in Cos Cob, CT that fell into the Sound back in 1983.

It needs to be at least 8 lanes wide, maybe 10, and it needs one reversible HOV lane. Anyone who says that this bridge does not need to be rebuilt does not live or has lived in greater NYC.

[cpzilliacus]

As a person who been over this bridge many of times, avoiding the dreaded Cross Bronx expressway, I can fully state that this damn bridge needs to go! The bridge wasn't built like the GWB or the Brooklyn Bridge. It isn't in that great of shape. Hell, it has been stated that it is in worse shape the one on I-95 in Cos Cob, CT that fell into the Sound back in 1983.

It needs to be at least 8 lanes wide, maybe 10, and it needs one reversible HOV lane. Anyone who says that this bridge does not need to be rebuilt does not live or has lived in greater NYC.

Don't forget that many of the persons and groups opposed to a new T-Z are opposed to any and all highway improvements, regardless of merit (two T-Z-specific examples here and here, and an even more craven and egregious example here).

[D-Dey65]

As a person who been over this bridge many of times, avoiding the dreaded Cross Bronx expressway, I can fully state that this damn bridge needs to go! The bridge wasn't built like the GWB or the Brooklyn Bridge. It isn't in that great of shape. Hell, it has been stated that it is in worse shape the one on I-95 in Cos Cob, CT that fell into the Sound back in 1983.

It needs to be at least 8 lanes wide, maybe 10, and it needs one reversible HOV lane. Anyone who says that this bridge does not need to be rebuilt does not live or has lived in greater NYC.

I can go for a reversible HOV lane, providing there are two non-reversible ones, and I think the HOV lanes should be separate from the rest of the traffic. I might've been willing to consider a scenario like I-95 south of DC, but I'm not sure about that idea anymore.

Don't forget that many of the persons and groups opposed to a new T-Z are opposed to any and all highway improvements, regardless of merit (two T-Z-specific examples here and here, and an even more craven and egregious example here).

Screw 'em. After all, they've been screwing us for the past 40-50 years, by stopping road improvements. I wonder what "farms" they think would be lost by replacing the rickety Tappan-Zee with something more solid. Or maybe somebody should enlighten "Cap'n Transit" about how long the Thruway was in Orange County before those farms were lost in 2010.

[Zmapper]

The Tappan Zee isn't even considered structurally deficient, nor are trucks restricted. Fears that the bridge will collapse like I-35W are overblown, and groups spreading that lie are generally those who will receive the welfare check.

Trucks were not restricted on the I-35W bridge before it failed, were they?

And similar arguments were used to obstruct and delay the reconstruction of the  old Woodrow Wilson Bridge (I-95 between Va. and Md., crossing the extreme southern tip of D.C.).

And note that I was personally in favor of collecting tolls from traffic crossing the reconstructed bridge.

The I-35W bridge was rated structurally deficient, so it should have been replaced. If you are worried about unsafe bridges, there are about 72,000 bridges more important to replace than the Tappan Zee.

The Tappan Zee is considered "functionally obsolete", meaning that it wouldn't meet standards for road geometry if it were built today.

As a person who been over this bridge many of times, avoiding the dreaded Cross Bronx expressway, I can fully state that this damn bridge needs to go! The bridge wasn't built like the GWB or the Brooklyn Bridge. It isn't in that great of shape. Hell, it has been stated that it is in worse shape the one on I-95 in Cos Cob, CT that fell into the Sound back in 1983.

It needs to be at least 8 lanes wide, maybe 10, and it needs one reversible HOV lane. Anyone who says that this bridge does not need to be rebuilt does not live or has lived in greater NYC.

I can go for a reversible HOV lane, providing there are two non-reversible ones, and I think the HOV lanes should be separate from the rest of the traffic. I might've been willing to consider a scenario like I-95 south of DC, but I'm not sure about that idea anymore.

Don't forget that many of the persons and groups opposed to a new T-Z are opposed to any and all highway improvements, regardless of merit (two T-Z-specific examples here and here, and an even more craven and egregious example here).

Screw 'em. After all, they've been screwing us for the past 40-50 years, by stopping road improvements. I wonder what "farms" they think would be lost by replacing the rickety Tappan-Zee with something more solid. Or maybe somebody should enlighten "Cap'n Transit" about how long the Thruway was in Orange County before those farms were lost in 2010.

Cap'n Transit is a bit 'out there', I agree. In the past I have made efforts to engage with him, but he seems rather set in his ways.

[vdeane]

The Tappan Zee isn't even considered structurally deficient, nor are trucks restricted. Fears that the bridge will collapse like I-35W are overblown, and groups spreading that lie are generally those who will receive the welfare check.

Trucks were not restricted on the I-35W bridge before it failed, were they?

And similar arguments were used to obstruct and delay the reconstruction of the  old Woodrow Wilson Bridge (I-95 between Va. and Md., crossing the extreme southern tip of D.C.).

And note that I was personally in favor of collecting tolls from traffic crossing the reconstructed bridge.

The I-35W bridge was rated structurally deficient, so it should have been replaced. If you are worried about unsafe bridges, there are about 72,000 bridges more important to replace than the Tappan Zee.

The Tappan Zee is considered "functionally obsolete", meaning that it wouldn't meet standards for road geometry if it were built today.

As a person who been over this bridge many of times, avoiding the dreaded Cross Bronx expressway, I can fully state that this damn bridge needs to go! The bridge wasn't built like the GWB or the Brooklyn Bridge. It isn't in that great of shape. Hell, it has been stated that it is in worse shape the one on I-95 in Cos Cob, CT that fell into the Sound back in 1983.

It needs to be at least 8 lanes wide, maybe 10, and it needs one reversible HOV lane. Anyone who says that this bridge does not need to be rebuilt does not live or has lived in greater NYC.

I can go for a reversible HOV lane, providing there are two non-reversible ones, and I think the HOV lanes should be separate from the rest of the traffic. I might've been willing to consider a scenario like I-95 south of DC, but I'm not sure about that idea anymore.

Don't forget that many of the persons and groups opposed to a new T-Z are opposed to any and all highway improvements, regardless of merit (two T-Z-specific examples here and here, and an even more craven and egregious example here).

Screw 'em. After all, they've been screwing us for the past 40-50 years, by stopping road improvements. I wonder what "farms" they think would be lost by replacing the rickety Tappan-Zee with something more solid. Or maybe somebody should enlighten "Cap'n Transit" about how long the Thruway was in Orange County before those farms were lost in 2010.

Cap'n Transit is a bit 'out there', I agree. In the past I have made efforts to engage with him, but he seems rather set in his ways.

The Tappan Zee was built in the Korean War during a stell shortage.  As such, it's very cheaply done, and only had a 50 year design life.  The general consensus is that it could collapse into the Hudson any day now, and yet you say it's fine.

The congestion won't go away either.  As was mentioned, this is a car-centric area.  People aren't going to give up the freedom of a car for a bus corridor just because some anti-auto groups tell them to.

Furthermore, comparing it to that SC bridge is just folly.  The new Tappan Zee will be nearly twice as long, wider, and in a state that actually pays workers semi-decent wages, at a time when construction costs are more expensive in general.  Of course it's going to cost a lot more.

[Zmapper]

The Tappan Zee was built in the Korean War during a stell shortage.  As such, it's very cheaply done, and only had a 50 year design life.  The general consensus is that it could collapse into the Hudson any day now, and yet you say it's fine.

If it is going to collapse any day now, then why is it not on the "structurally deficient" list? Surely for such a politically popular project the powers-that-be would direct the engineers to make sure it ended up on the list, but they still haven't listed the bridge as structurally deficient.

The congestion won't go away either.  As was mentioned, this is a car-centric area.  People aren't going to give up the freedom of a car for a bus corridor just because some anti-auto groups tell them to.

How many people are willing to pay the $25+ tolls to drive over the new bridge? Granted, Rockland and Orange county is a rich area, but there still would be plenty of people that are willing to change their habits by using transit, changing jobs, or even moving out if it meant they could save $25 each day.

Furthermore, comparing it to that SC bridge is just folly.  The new Tappan Zee will be nearly twice as long, wider, and in a state that actually pays workers semi-decent wages, at a time when construction costs are more expensive in general.  Of course it's going to cost a lot more.

I highly doubt that the workers in SC are being paid crap wages relative to the cost-of-living there. Last I checked, SC is still part of America, and are still subject to the same federal worker protection laws and minimum wage laws that New Yorkers receive.

The Tappan Zee is only a 1/2 mile longer, and will have the same lane width as the New Cooper River bridge. What the SC bridge lacks is the gold-plated emergency lanes and shoulders, which almost certainly will be converted to additional lanes the minute the bridge opens. Both bridges are over a shipping channel, both rivers spanned have about the same depth (as NE2 pointed out), both are being designed by Parsons, both are being built in America. There is no reason why one bridge should cost at least 8 times as much as the other.

[mc78andrew]

People would change jobs to save 25 dollars a day?  Don't think so...not in ny anyway.  I would pay 25 dollars a day just to know I had my job though the end of the year, but I work for a mega bank so maybe that's unique to my industry.  But wait, pretty much every job is directly or indirectly linking to the banking industry in ny, so maybe I speak for the majority?

Also, see my point on moving from my earlier post. Ny aint sc nor is it Colorado.  I use to live in colorado and there you could just pave over a few hundred acre farm and throw up some track housing to lessen people's commutes. The average price of a home on the westchester side of the bridge is well north of 1 million bucks in many towns...and that's post the real estate bubble.  My point is 25 bucks will not change people's behavior.  And if you throw out a higher number many New Yorkers would support the thruway or another authority even the state general fund taking on some of the cost to defer the toll.  Even those hat don't use the bridge often would like to get the heck out of metro ny sometimes without the headache of hours returning on Sunday night. 

[vdeane]

The Tappan Zee was built in the Korean War during a stell shortage.  As such, it's very cheaply done, and only had a 50 year design life.  The general consensus is that it could collapse into the Hudson any day now, and yet you say it's fine.

If it is going to collapse any day now, then why is it not on the "structurally deficient" list? Surely for such a politically popular project the powers-that-be would direct the engineers to make sure it ended up on the list, but they still haven't listed the bridge as structurally deficient.

The congestion won't go away either.  As was mentioned, this is a car-centric area.  People aren't going to give up the freedom of a car for a bus corridor just because some anti-auto groups tell them to.

How many people are willing to pay the $25+ tolls to drive over the new bridge? Granted, Rockland and Orange county is a rich area, but there still would be plenty of people that are willing to change their habits by using transit, changing jobs, or even moving out if it meant they could save $25 each day.

Furthermore, comparing it to that SC bridge is just folly.  The new Tappan Zee will be nearly twice as long, wider, and in a state that actually pays workers semi-decent wages, at a time when construction costs are more expensive in general.  Of course it's going to cost a lot more.

I highly doubt that the workers in SC are being paid crap wages relative to the cost-of-living there. Last I checked, SC is still part of America, and are still subject to the same federal worker protection laws and minimum wage laws that New Yorkers receive.

The Tappan Zee is only a 1/2 mile longer, and will have the same lane width as the New Cooper River bridge. What the SC bridge lacks is the gold-plated emergency lanes and shoulders, which almost certainly will be converted to additional lanes the minute the bridge opens. Both bridges are over a shipping channel, both rivers spanned have about the same depth (as NE2 pointed out), both are being designed by Parsons, both are being built in America. There is no reason why one bridge should cost at least 8 times as much as the other.

It's probably not on the structurally deficient list because NYSTA pays to have it rehabilitated 24/7/365.

The highest proposed toll I have seen is $14, and Governor Cuomo is on record as saying he will pursue any and all options to reduce it.  Note that this is about the same as many other NYC area bridges, though it would be the first north of the Bronx-Westchester county line.  As mentioned, the tolls are eastbound only, so removing tolls would not do anything to make it less connected.  The toll plaza also has two 35mph E-ZPass lanes, the only ones of their kind on the Thruway, and I'm betting that the only reason the Thruway Authority hasn't made them full ORT is because having cars whiz by at 55 mph while the rest are in bumper to bumper traffic is NOT safe.  Also of note, the Thruway is not considering going cashless, not now, not ever.  We don't even have E-ZPass only ramps, though having a couple for I-87 on exit 24 was considered (and given that they aren't a part of the widening in the area, I would assume rejected).

The New Copper bridge is 2.6 miles long, if you include the portions that are on land, which are really just glorified elevated freeways rather than a bridge IMO.  If you include just the parts that look like a bridge, it's only 1.4 miles long.  The Tappan Zee is a full 3 miles long, 99% of it over water, much of it floating because, as noted before, the bottom cannot support the bridge weight.  It will certainly be wider than the New Copper bridge, as the New Copper bridge is only four lanes each way with no shoulders.  I believe the new Tappan Zee is supposed to have five each way with space available to run trains through it.  Also, note that it would also have to be brought up to modern standards, which means shoulders.  The New Copper bridge does not carry interstates, so it doesn't have to adhere to as strict a standard as the new Tappan Zee does.  I HIGHLY DOUBT the shoulders will be converted into additonal lanes the minute it opens.  Bridges are typically built to handle tomorrow's traffic loads, not yesterday's.  At least that's how we do it in NY.

Minimum wage is not enough to live off of.  Businesses are known for exploiting non-union workers, and forcing them into the crappiest circumstances the law will allow.  If you don't like unions, go work in a Chinese factory and tell me how you like it.  That's what the US would be like without unions.  While unions do often go too far, the same is even more true of businesses, and unions are a necessary part of the system to balance this out.

[Beltway]

Minimum wage is not enough to live off of.  Businesses are known for exploiting non-union workers, and forcing them into the crappiest circumstances the law will allow.  If you don't like unions, go work in a Chinese factory and tell me how you like it.  That's what the US would be like without unions.  While unions do often go too far, the same is even more true of businesses, and unions are a necessary part of the system to balance this out.

Many U.S. states have little or no unionization, and their trade workers do fine financially.  Unionization <> good pay.

[Zmapper]

It's probably not on the structurally deficient list because NYSTA pays to have it rehabilitated 24/7/365.

You don't spend $50 to save 50 cents. While rehabilitation costs are higher than ideal, replacing the bridge for the sake of replacing the bridge is even more expensive.

The highest proposed toll I have seen is $14, and Governor Cuomo is on record as saying he will pursue any and all options to reduce it.

According to an independent analysis by Charles Komanoff, with some basic math the toll to repay the bond could be as little as $9, or as high as $30. Traffic could fluctuate between 165,000 or 82,000, which is dependent on toll rates.

If Cuomo steps in, and I fully expect he will, then now the whole population of New York is on the hook for an overpriced, gold-plated bridge.

Note that this is about the same as many other NYC area bridges, though it would be the first north of the Bronx-Westchester county line.  As mentioned, the tolls are eastbound only, so removing tolls would not do anything to make it less connected.  The toll plaza also has two 35mph E-ZPass lanes, the only ones of their kind on the Thruway, and I'm betting that the only reason the Thruway Authority hasn't made them full ORT is because having cars whiz by at 55 mph while the rest are in bumper to bumper traffic is NOT safe.

Also of note, the Thruway is not considering going cashless, not now, not ever.  We don't even have E-ZPass only ramps, though having a couple for I-87 on exit 24 was considered (and given that they aren't a part of the widening in the area, I would assume rejected).

By full ORT, I mean NO tollbooths whatsoever, just gantries. It is absolutely ridiculous that in the 21st Century old fashioned tollbooths are still planned. 407 in Toronto has had full ORT for over a decade now, E-470 in Denver has had it for almost five years, and many other toll roads are being opened up without tollbooths. The technology already exists, it is a matter of initiative  by the NYDOT.

The New Copper bridge is 2.6 miles long, if you include the portions that are on land, which are really just glorified elevated freeways rather than a bridge IMO.  If you include just the parts that look like a bridge, it's only 1.4 miles long.  The Tappan Zee is a full 3 miles long, 99% of it over water, much of it floating because, as noted before, the bottom cannot support the bridge weight.

According to Google Earth, the distance over what appears to be poor soil (riverbed) plus water is a little over 3 kilometers. I would consider the segment over land to be more challenging, because not only do you have likely poor riverbed soils to deal with, you also have to use eminent domain on the housing below, demolish the homes, construct the bridge, and tie it into existing busy roads, all without shutting down anything for any significant amount of time.

It will certainly be wider than the New Copper bridge, as the New Copper bridge is only four lanes each way with no shoulders.  I believe the new Tappan Zee is supposed to have five each way with space available to run trains through it. Also, note that it would also have to be brought up to modern standards, which means shoulders.  The New Copper bridge does not carry interstates, so it doesn't have to adhere to as strict a standard as the new Tappan Zee does.  I HIGHLY DOUBT the shoulders will be converted into additonal lanes the minute it opens.  Bridges are typically built to handle tomorrow's traffic loads, not yesterday's.  At least that's how we do it in NY.

Other than minor highway overpasses, I don't recall seeing any bridge with full left and right shoulders, plus an 'emergency access' lane. I could accept perhaps an 8' shoulder on one side, but anything beyond that is little more than frivolous gold-plating and contractor welfare.

Excluding the bicycle path, each span will have 82' available to allocate. If each lane is 11' 5" wide, it is possible to squeeze in 7 lanes in each direction. While they only promise striping four lanes, I give it until the first traffic jam that some politician proposes to re-stripe the shoulders as additional lanes. Remember that the seventh lane originated in a similar process.

Minimum wage is not enough to live off of.  Businesses are known for exploiting non-union workers, and forcing them into the crappiest circumstances the law will allow.  If you don't like unions, go work in a Chinese factory and tell me how you like it.  That's what the US would be like without unions.  While unions do often go too far, the same is even more true of businesses, and unions are a necessary part of the system to balance this out.

If you honestly believe that unions are the only thing separating us from China, you really need to get out of NY more! Only 12% of all employees are unionized. Furthermore, only 5% of the nation is paid minimum wage (though to be fair, 10% is paid below minimum wage, mostly because they are paid "under the table" or they work on tips.) Of those 5% that are being paid minimum wage, half are under 25. Other than suck $50 out of your paycheck every month and give it straight to the Democrat Party, there is little purpose to unions in the modern world.

The federal funding process helps to insulate decision makers from any consequences. If the Obama administration is just going to give you more money no-questions-asked, who cares if the bridge costs more by a factor of five, eight, or ten? The FHWA will just give you more money, and you won't be under any pressure to change your ways. Abuses of the system like is common in the Northeast are a blatant slap in the face to all taxpayers, and any DOT or city government that does make an attempt at cost control.

[vdeane]

You don't spend $50 to save 50 cents. While rehabilitation costs are higher than ideal, replacing the bridge for the sake of replacing the bridge is even more expensive.

Those 50 cents will equal 50 dollars after the 100th time you have to pay them.  Simple math.

According to an independent analysis by Charles Komanoff, with some basic math the toll to repay the bond could be as little as $9, or as high as $30. Traffic could fluctuate between 165,000 or 82,000, which is dependent on toll rates.

If Cuomo steps in, and I fully expect he will, then now the whole population of New York is on the hook for an overpriced, gold-plated bridge.

The whole population of New York is already subsidizing the Cross-Westchester Expressway (and formerly I-84) in the form of increased Thruway tolls.  This would be nothing new.  In fact, upstate taxpayers nearly got the bill for a $1 billion football statium in Manhattan a few years ago.

By full ORT, I mean NO tollbooths whatsoever, just gantries. It is absolutely ridiculous that in the 21st Century old fashioned tollbooths are still planned. 407 in Toronto has had full ORT for over a decade now, E-470 in Denver has had it for almost five years, and many other toll roads are being opened up without tollbooths. The technology already exists, it is a matter of initiative  by the NYDOT.

That is never, ever going to happen on the Thruway.  Also, you just lost all credibility with that last sentence.  There is no such thing as NYDOT.  We have NYSDOT, which maintains just about every state highway except the Thruway, and NYSTA, which maintains the Thruway (and a plethora of other, more minor, agencies), and none of the agencies have anything to do with the others.  Any coorperation that happens between agencies is 100% voluntary.  Perhaps you should bother to inform yourself of the way things work in NY before ranting about gold plated bridges.

According to Google Earth, the distance over what appears to be poor soil (riverbed) plus water is a little over 3 kilometers. I would consider the segment over land to be more challenging, because not only do you have likely poor riverbed soils to deal with, you also have to use eminent domain on the housing below, demolish the homes, construct the bridge, and tie it into existing busy roads, all without shutting down anything for any significant amount of time.

As was mentioned earlier, the Hudson River soil is likely poor compared to the stuff for the New Copper Bridge, but I guess poor soil doesn't exist in NY in your mind. Also, take a look at the satellite imagery.  Eminent domain will be needed for the new Tappan Zee as well.  They aren't going to just shut the bridge down for 5 years.

Other than minor highway overpasses, I don't recall seeing any bridge with full left and right shoulders, plus an 'emergency access' lane. I could accept perhaps an 8' shoulder on one side, but anything beyond that is little more than frivolous gold-plating and contractor welfare.

Excluding the bicycle path, each span will have 82' available to allocate. If each lane is 11' 5" wide, it is possible to squeeze in 7 lanes in each direction. While they only promise striping four lanes, I give it until the first traffic jam that some politician proposes to re-stripe the shoulders as additional lanes. Remember that the seventh lane originated in a similar process.

The seventh lane lane was not added immediately and came from the left shoulders and median.  The Tappan Zee never had right shoulders to begin with.  And if you had ever been on the Tappan Zee through an accident, you wouldn't be complaining about it.  Even a minor fender bender causes 2-3 HOUR traffic jams.  If an ambulance is needed, the person who needs it will likely die before it arrives.  I could see the emergency lane becoming HOV or bus though, and there will likely be a restriping at some point, but hardly immediately.  Traffic jams are a fact of life in the entire state.  You don't design a road to handle rush hour, at least not here.

If you honestly believe that unions are the only thing separating us from China, you really need to get out of NY more! Only 12% of all employees are unionized. Furthermore, only 5% of the nation is paid minimum wage (though to be fair, 10% is paid below minimum wage, mostly because they are paid "under the table" or they work on tips.) Of those 5% that are being paid minimum wage, half are under 25. Other than suck $50 out of your paycheck every month and give it straight to the Democrat Party, there is little purpose to unions in the modern world.

And you need to get out of "right to work" (more like "right to be fired") states more.  Have you ever read a history book on the guilded era?  If you think that businesses won't behave like that again the nanosecond that checks on their power are removed, you're insane.

The federal funding process helps to insulate decision makers from any consequences. If the Obama administration is just going to give you more money no-questions-asked, who cares if the bridge costs more by a factor of five, eight, or ten? The FHWA will just give you more money, and you won't be under any pressure to change your ways. Abuses of the system like is common in the Northeast are a blatant slap in the face to all taxpayers, and any DOT or city government that does make an attempt at cost control.

Look whos talking (and being ignorant again).  The northeast states are net donors to the federal government.  States like South Carolina and Colorado are net recievers.  YOU'RE the one that's abusing the system, not us.  As far as I'm concerned, the feds should just cut all financial aid to "small government" states that recieve more money than they pay back in taxes.  That should change their tune.

[Zmapper]

I don't have that much time, so I will stick to just the points that really make you look dumb...

NYSTA can go cashless if they want. There is absolutely no logical reason other than agency incompetence and inertia to not do so. I have to wonder why you defend failure...



Would you look at that! New York actually gets more from DC than Colorado per dollar taxed. I know reality takes a while to set in, but the facts don't lie.

Regardless, a big portion of federal spending is national projects that benefit the whole nation, like national defense. Should I put you down in support of storing our missiles under Times Square, just so NY gets its "fair share"? Or would you rather place them in Wyoming, where damage can be minimized if something went wrong.

[NE2]

Speaking of looking dumb, the Cooper River Bridge is in Colorado

[vdeane]

I don't have that much time, so I will stick to just the points that really make you look dumb...

Translation: you're losing the argument, so you're looking for ways to save face while throwing insults.

NYSTA can go cashless if they want. There is absolutely no logical reason other than agency incompetence and inertia to not do so. I have to wonder why you defend failure...

I never said they can't.  I said they won't.  There are no plans to do so, and even the highway speed E-ZPass lanes are moving at a glacial pace.  It's not failure, it's just a matter of priorities.  Why should cash users (which still comprise a majority of weekend traffic on the Thruway) be forced to get a transponder or face a huge toll hike in the form of "processing" fees?  Why should NYSTA spend lots of money, no doubt forcing a toll hike (the Thruway is still the cheapest area toll road), just because ORT is the shiny new bandwagon that lots of states are jumping on?  NYSTA maintains roads to a higher standard than interstate standards yet spends money very judiciously; there are very few major reconstruction projects, and sign rehabs are unheard of, which NYSDOT does both frequently, so they wouldn't be spending lots of money on the new Tappan Zee if they didn't believe it was needed.  If you knew more about NY, you'd realize that we're generally the last state to get pretty much anything transportation related (though the Thruway does have an exception with clearview signs).  We let other people be the beta testers.

Would you look at that! New York actually gets more from DC than Colorado per dollar taxed. I know reality takes a while to set in, but the facts don't lie.

OK, I admit I was wrong about Colorado.  Funny how you stay silent on South Carolina here... perhaps because your map proves my point there.  Facts don't lie, but it might take a while for reality to sink in.

Regardless, a big portion of federal spending is national projects that benefit the whole nation, like national defense. Should I put you down in support of storing our missiles under Times Square, just so NY gets its "fair share"? Or would you rather place them in Wyoming, where damage can be minimized if something went wrong.

Don't put words into my mouth.  For the record, I believe the defense budget should be cut by a LOT.  Go take those missiles and put them on the moon for all I care, just stop spending money on them when we have more important things to do!

Speaking of looking dumb, the Cooper River Bridge is in Colorado

The New Cooper River Bridge being discussed here is the local name for the Arthur Ravenel Jr. Bridge in Charleston, SC.

[NE2]

Whoosh.

[Zmapper]

Alright, time to give your response the proper reply it deserves.

You don't spend $50 to save 50 cents. While rehabilitation costs are higher than ideal, replacing the bridge for the sake of replacing the bridge is even more expensive.

Those 50 cents will equal 50 dollars after the 100th time you have to pay them.  Simple math.

Which means that some time exists before replacement is absolutely necessary. Plenty of time remains to sort out the incompetence problem plaguing mega-projects in the Northeast.

According to an independent analysis by Charles Komanoff, with some basic math the toll to repay the bond could be as little as $9, or as high as $30. Traffic could fluctuate between 165,000 or 82,000, which is dependent on toll rates.

If Cuomo steps in, and I fully expect he will, then now the whole population of New York is on the hook for an overpriced, gold-plated bridge.

The whole population of New York is already subsidizing the Cross-Westchester Expressway (and formerly I-84) in the form of increased Thruway tolls.  This would be nothing new.  In fact, upstate taxpayers nearly got the bill for a $1 billion football statium in Manhattan a few years ago.

I don't find the cross-subsidization that has come to be common to be very acceptable.

By full ORT, I mean NO tollbooths whatsoever, just gantries. It is absolutely ridiculous that in the 21st Century old fashioned tollbooths are still planned. 407 in Toronto has had full ORT for over a decade now, E-470 in Denver has had it for almost five years, and many other toll roads are being opened up without tollbooths. The technology already exists, it is a matter of initiative  by the NYDOT.

That is never, ever going to happen on the Thruway.  Also, you just lost all credibility with that last sentence.  There is no such thing as NYDOT.  We have NYSDOT, which maintains just about every state highway except the Thruway, and NYSTA, which maintains the Thruway (and a plethora of other, more minor, agencies), and none of the agencies have anything to do with the others.  Any coorperation that happens between agencies is 100% voluntary.  Perhaps you should bother to inform yourself of the way things work in NY before ranting about gold plated bridges.

Alright, there are two agencies; I messed up here. Regardless, it is absurd that whoever the alphabet soup agency responsible can't figure out how to enter the 21st century.

According to Google Earth, the distance over what appears to be poor soil (riverbed) plus water is a little over 3 kilometers. I would consider the segment over land to be more challenging, because not only do you have likely poor riverbed soils to deal with, you also have to use eminent domain on the housing below, demolish the homes, construct the bridge, and tie it into existing busy roads, all without shutting down anything for any significant amount of time.

As was mentioned earlier, the Hudson River soil is likely poor compared to the stuff for the New Copper Bridge, but I guess poor soil doesn't exist in NY in your mind. Also, take a look at the satellite imagery.  Eminent domain will be needed for the new Tappan Zee as well.  They aren't going to just shut the bridge down for 5 years.

River soil tends to be rather poor for building, and this is mostly true regardless of where you are. If SC can build over river soil at reasonable costs, why should I not expect the same from the Northeast?

According to the EIS, the bridge can be built almost exclusively within the confines of the existing ROW; if I am reading the map right it appears that the bridge can be built without demolishing any structures.

Other than minor highway overpasses, I don't recall seeing any bridge with full left and right shoulders, plus an 'emergency access' lane. I could accept perhaps an 8' shoulder on one side, but anything beyond that is little more than frivolous gold-plating and contractor welfare.

Excluding the bicycle path, each span will have 82' available to allocate. If each lane is 11' 5" wide, it is possible to squeeze in 7 lanes in each direction. While they only promise striping four lanes, I give it until the first traffic jam that some politician proposes to re-stripe the shoulders as additional lanes. Remember that the seventh lane originated in a similar process.

The seventh lane lane was not added immediately and came from the left shoulders and median.  The Tappan Zee never had right shoulders to begin with.  And if you had ever been on the Tappan Zee through an accident, you wouldn't be complaining about it.  Even a minor fender bender causes 2-3 HOUR traffic jams.  If an ambulance is needed, the person who needs it will likely die before it arrives.  I could see the emergency lane becoming HOV or bus though, and there will likely be a restriping at some point, but hardly immediately.  Traffic jams are a fact of life in the entire state.  You don't design a road to handle rush hour, at least not here.

The seventh lane came out of lane narrowing, and the median. Basically, another lane was crammed in by removing existing safety features.

If you honestly believe that unions are the only thing separating us from China, you really need to get out of NY more! Only 12% of all employees are unionized. Furthermore, only 5% of the nation is paid minimum wage (though to be fair, 10% is paid below minimum wage, mostly because they are paid "under the table" or they work on tips.) Of those 5% that are being paid minimum wage, half are under 25. Other than suck $50 out of your paycheck every month and give it straight to the Democrat Party, there is little purpose to unions in the modern world.

And you need to get out of "right to work" (more like "right to be fired") states more.  Have you ever read a history book on the guilded era?  If you think that businesses won't behave like that again the nanosecond that checks on their power are removed, you're insane.

The federal funding process helps to insulate decision makers from any consequences. If the Obama administration is just going to give you more money no-questions-asked, who cares if the bridge costs more by a factor of five, eight, or ten? The FHWA will just give you more money, and you won't be under any pressure to change your ways. Abuses of the system like is common in the Northeast are a blatant slap in the face to all taxpayers, and any DOT or city government that does make an attempt at cost control.

Look whos talking (and being ignorant again).  The northeast states are net donors to the federal government.  States like South Carolina and Colorado are net recievers.  YOU'RE the one that's abusing the system, not us.  As far as I'm concerned, the feds should just cut all financial aid to "small government" states that recieve more money than they pay back in taxes.  That should change their tune.

You have not answered my argument, instead focusing on average donor flows. Do you agree or disagree that the federal funding process insulates decision makers from the consequences? Do you agree or disagree that you will just get more money no-questions-asked? Do you agree or disagree that abuses are a blatant slap in the face to the rest of us?

As I showed, Colorado donates more per-capita than your state does. You are right on South Carolina though. Regardless, averages are irrelevant when discussing specific projects. The Tappan Zee is eight times more than comparable bridges, and most of the additional expense will flow not to the workers but to the corporations as pure welfare.

This is probably the biggest difference between the two of us. I don't ask why; I ask why not. Why not break free from the stranglehold of incompetent project managers? Why not consider 21st Century tolling methods like the rest of the country has done? Why not rebuild our failing infrastructure, but do so in a fiscally, environmentally, and socially sustainable way? Why not have the Northeast be a leader; not a follower?

At current costs, it would take $1,000,000,000,000 (that is with a B) to completely build the New York City Subway from scratch. Could any corporation or government afford to build the subway at current extortion-level project costs? Almost every project in the Northeast is under investigation by the feds for corruption.

Cities like Denver, Houston, Phoenix, Minneapolis, and Dallas are building hundreds of miles of new track and new lanes for a fraction of what the Northeast spends on a single project. If you think this is because they are new (they aren't), or because of the weather, or whatever the BS excuse of the week is, you are wrong! The rest of the country and the globe is evolving, modernizing its infrastructure (NOT at extortion-level rates like the NE pays), all while the Northeast sits on its hind and whines about why they are stagnating.

For your convenience, I have underlined all the ad-homiem attacks in your post. Please refrain from any more baseless attacks, and I will do the same. 

[hbelkins]

Will there be any federal gas tax revenue spent on the new Tappan Zee Bridge, or will the cost be paid through Thruway tolls?

[vdeane]

I don't find the cross-subsidization that has come to be common to be very acceptable.

Both Long Island and upstate NY would like to kick the rest of the state out for that reason.

By full ORT, I mean NO tollbooths whatsoever, just gantries. It is absolutely ridiculous that in the 21st Century old fashioned tollbooths are still planned. 407 in Toronto has had full ORT for over a decade now, E-470 in Denver has had it for almost five years, and many other toll roads are being opened up without tollbooths. The technology already exists, it is a matter of initiative  by the NYDOT.

That is never, ever going to happen on the Thruway.  Also, you just lost all credibility with that last sentence.  There is no such thing as NYDOT.  We have NYSDOT, which maintains just about every state highway except the Thruway, and NYSTA, which maintains the Thruway (and a plethora of other, more minor, agencies), and none of the agencies have anything to do with the others.  Any coorperation that happens between agencies is 100% voluntary.  Perhaps you should bother to inform yourself of the way things work in NY before ranting about gold plated bridges.

Alright, there are two agencies; I messed up here. Regardless, it is absurd that whoever the alphabet soup agency responsible can't figure out how to enter the 21st century.

I'm not sure why full ORT is "entering the 21st century".  When I see ORT, I see roads that people who don't have whatever proprietary transponder that works only on that road either have to pay unreasonably high fees or can't use the road at all.  While that works for bypasses, it won't for the primary arteal of the entire state (which the Thruway is), especially since there are a lot of people who refuse to get E-ZPass.  In the past my Dad has stated that he is dead set against E-ZPass, though recently his views seem to be changing.  Many people don't like the idea of putting money into an account and having their credit card automatically billed, especially if they can remember when the road was supposed to become free in 1995 (which would have happened were it not for the I-84 deal with NYSDOT).  If the PA and NJ Turnpikes go ORT it might start being talked about, but I don't think the MassPike or anyone else in New England has ORT plans either.  Many of the E-ZPass lanes still have gate arms (though not on the Thruway), and most of the international bridges are cash only.

River soil tends to be rather poor for building, and this is mostly true regardless of where you are. If SC can build over river soil at reasonable costs, why should I not expect the same from the Northeast?

I think Duke87's point is that the Hudson soil is even more poor than normal river soil.

According to the EIS, the bridge can be built almost exclusively within the confines of the existing ROW; if I am reading the map right it appears that the bridge can be built without demolishing any structures.

I was looking at the satellite view of Google Maps here.  They must be building the new one quite close to the existing one, or maybe those structures were owned by the state.

The seventh lane came out of lane narrowing, and the median. Basically, another lane was crammed in by removing existing safety features.

That's pretty much what I said: median and left shoulders; the right shoulders never existed.  Being from the northeast, I don't consider a median to be as important as right shoulders, having traveled often on many roads where the lanes are practically on top of each other with a jersey barrier or one lane width apart with just a guard rail.

You have not answered my argument, instead focusing on average donor flows. Do you agree or disagree that the federal funding process insulates decision makers from the consequences?

What kind of consequences?  Anything non-financial won't be insulated, and the feds have never paid 100% of anything as far as I know.  Believe it or not, NY has just done a lot of work to balance the budget (though mostly at the expense of passing the problem to lower levels of governemnt).

Do you agree or disagree that you will just get more money no-questions-asked?

I don't think that has ever happened in the history of government grants.

Do you agree or disagree that abuses are a blatant slap in the face to the rest of us?

Probably not.  I've never subscribed to the view that government money is "my money"; as far as I'm concerned, it ceases to be mine the moment the government cashes the check.

Cities like Denver, Houston, Phoenix, Minneapolis, and Dallas are building hundreds of miles of new track and new lanes for a fraction of what the Northeast spends on a single project. If you think this is because they are new (they aren't), or because of the weather, or whatever the BS excuse of the week is, you are wrong! The rest of the country and the globe is evolving, modernizing its infrastructure (NOT at extortion-level rates like the NE pays), all while the Northeast sits on its hind and whines about why they are stagnating.

We're quite bureaucratic up here, which is why it takes years for anything to get off the ground.  Even and EIS can take a decade to complete depending on how much will power is behind a project, and as far as transportation is concerned, there isn't much, especially for roads.  Lots of NIMBYs, combined with people who think we should ditch cars and use transit everywhere, just because it works for NYC.  Also, people are resistant to change here.  "That's the way it's always been" is good enough reason for anything.

I don't like the way transportation has been static in the northeast either; many times I've seen highway projects talked about only to die, but why attack this bridge, which at least offers an improvement over existing conditions, and there are more pressing problems with corporate welfare, like the bank bailouts from 4 years ago, federal tax policy, and court cases like citizen's united.  For some reason, many people seem to have this attitude that it is better to stick with the status quo than to allow an incomplete solution through.  Well, the only way you're going to get a complete solution is with a revolution, which I don't see coming, so I'll take incomplete solutions.

[1995hoo]

....

At current costs, it would take $1,000,000,000,000 (that is with a B) to completely build the New York City Subway from scratch. Could any corporation or government afford to build the subway at current extortion-level project costs? Almost every project in the Northeast is under investigation by the feds for corruption.

....

FWIW, the number you typed there is $1 trillion (twelve zeroes), not $1 billion (nine zeroes).

I saw something once about how much money a billion dollars is that I thought was a great explanation:

We hear numbers like a billion and a trillion thrown around all the time in the context of the federal budget or the national debt, but none of us can relate to how much money that is. I think just about everybody has a sense for a thousand dollars, however.

Suppose somebody were to give you a million dollars (tax-free) with the stipulation that you must spend exactly $1,000 every day until the money is gone. It would take you a thousand days, which is approximately three months short of three years.

Suppose instead that person gave you a billion dollars, again tax-free, with the same $1,000-per-day stipulation. It would take you a thousand times longer to spend it–almost three thousand years. (That's an oversimplification, of course, because the "three months short" would add up every four years to knock a year off the period, and then there are leap years as well. But you're still talking about a couple of thousand years.)

If instead that person gave you a trillion dollars with the same conditions, it would take you somewhere between two and three million years to spend it all.

[Zmapper]

I meant to type trillion.

[Perfxion]

Um, one of the reasons it is cheaper for say Houston to build than New York is the price of the land. If a 2500 sq ft home in Houston goes from 125K, in NYC area its 900K. It is cheaper to build out, and not build up. And if its so easy to get projects done, explain the Grand Parkway in Houston( not even 3 segments done and that started in the mid 60s) or the "mass transit" train that seems to only go from minute maid park to the Astrodome. Nevermind, the rest of the city east and west inside the loop or any direct outside the loop for that matter.

[NE2]

One million isn't even one percent of one billion! WOW!

[Alps]

I meant to type trillion.

To be fair, overseas, $1 billion would mean "$1 million million", as typed.

[kkt]

I meant to type trillion.

To be fair, overseas, $1 billion would mean "$1 million million", as typed.

It used to.  But the British government was about the last holdout, and they changed billion to 1000 million about 30 or 40 years ago for financial reports.