Historic Thomas Brothers Maps (56k warning)

[Bigmikelakers]

Crazy even in 1998, Thomas Bros were still using their older format for Phoenix. I thought it would have went to the digital format by then.

[TheStranger]

Is it me or is the proposed AZ 217 what became part of AZ 202?

[Alex]

Next Post: Either continue discussing about Phoenix Freeways or proceed to Portland Metro area Freeways (1987 Edition).

A better idea would be to cull all of the scans for one metro area into one thread, while starting a new one for another. Therefore those interested in California, or Phoenix, or Portland can more specifically find the scans of interest.

[Bigmikelakers]

Downtown Riverside 1968

Old Cloverleaf Interchange and US 60/US 395 still exist in this area. No I-15 yet.

[agentsteel53]

Downtown Riverside 1968

Old Cloverleaf Interchange and US 60/US 395 still exist in this area. No I-15 yet.

surprising.  I thought "temp I-15E" was in place on what was to be the 215 corridor by the late 60s.

when did that designation come about?

[TheStranger]

Downtown Riverside 1968

Old Cloverleaf Interchange and US 60/US 395 still exist in this area. No I-15 yet.

surprising.  I thought "temp I-15E" was in place on what was to be the 215 corridor by the late 60s.

when did that designation come about?

1969.  From 1964-1969 I-15 ended at I-10 in San Bernardino (at today's 215/10 junction) while 395 continued on to San Diego.  (Faigin's page talks about some of this in depth but I'm not sure if the interpretations of the numbering changes are correct).

What I think happened, solely based on the listed legislative changes - especially the ones noted here http://www.cahighways.org/193-200.html#194 -

1964: I-15 defined to end at I-10 at current 215/10 junction near Colton, 395 continues southward to San Diego along today's 215, 15, and 163.  (15 may have been signed several years before the 1964 renumbering)

1969: I-15 extended south along what was then 395, except at the southernmost portion (where the Murphy Canyon/1964 Route 103 corridor was chosen, which included part of the 1930s US 395, as opposed to the 1947-1969 US 395 along Cabrillo Freeway). 

1974: Western I-15 alignment in the Inland Empire created using the middle segment of Route 71 (Corona to Temecula) and the entirety of Route 31 (from Corona to Devore).  Old US 395/1969 I-15 becomes I-15E/hidden state route 194, signed as Temporary I-15E.  (I do not know if I-15E was signed without the "temporary" banner on segments that were already full freeway, i.e. from Devore to Moreno Valley.)

1980: Suffixed spur routes eliminated from Interstate system; the I-35 splits and I-15E are retained.

1982: Route 194/I-15E designations deleted in favor of I-215 (and where old 395 had still not been upgraded, Route 215 until full conversion to limited access in the 1990s).

[agentsteel53]

so, in 1969, the non-freeway sections of the new segment of 15 were signed as "TEMPORARY I-15"?  or just plain "I-15"?

there is at least one sign left which has evidence of a state 215 shield under an I-215: Ramona Expressway westbound at I-215.

[TheStranger]

so, in 1969, the non-freeway sections of the new segment of 15 were signed as "TEMPORARY I-15"?  or just plain "I-15"?

I'm not sure.  I forgot what site - Casey Cooper's? - showed a US 395 text sign from that year.

[SimMoonXP]

I will take photo the City of Riverside Page 7 when I gets home tonight. I have 1969, 1971, and 1977 edition. Wonder about 1968 Blythe, CA in Riverside County section.

[Bigmikelakers]

I still think I-15 should have been kept where it originally was and had the 215 go on the new alignment since it bypasses Riverside and San Bernardino.

[JeffNLisa]

HUGE thanks to Bigmikelakers for posting page 7.  I wrote him and requested it, because I couldn't remember the location where the UP and the SP shared girder bridge crossed the 91.  I first came to California in 1984, have lived in the Inland Empire ever since.  For years whenever I'd go into Riverside I'd see that abandoned girder bridge crossing the freeway.  I was so used to it, I didn't even notice when they took it away.  For the last few years I could have sworn that it was more near to 14th street.  In fact, it was just North of 1st Street.  With the new interchange now, it's hard to imagine that there was once a rail overpass over the 91 there. 

I'D LOVE TO SEE A PICTURE OF THAT OVERPASS BRIDGE IF ANYONE KNOWS WHERE ONE IS.  Or any pictures of any UP or SP stations that ever may have existed in Riverside near 1st and Main/Market. 

Once in the late 80s I drove up and down La Cadena trying to see where the track once used to come off that bridge.  Funny, it's much easier to see now than it was then!   




As to the discussion that has ensued just today, I had forgotten about the 15E designation.  In 1984 when I first got here, my first Thomas book I bought used was about a 1981 version, and it still had the route marked as 15E.  And I could swear that between Devore and San Bernardino there was still signage that said 15E.  I lived then (and again live now) near that stretch of freeway. 

Jeff

[agentsteel53]

And I could swear that between Devore and San Bernardino there was still signage that said 15E. 

I wouldn't doubt it.

the last "TEMP 15E" sign disappeared sometime between August, 2007 and April, 2008.  It was on D Street at CA-74 in Perris - spelled out on a green sign.

[kendancy66]

I still think I-15 should have been kept where it originally was and had the 215 go on the new alignment since it bypasses Riverside and San Bernardino.

I think that relocating I-15 enabled CA to get Federal money to build it and bypass the previous substandard I-15 in San Bernardino and extend south to San Diego.  Otherwise CA would have had to pay for the new CA-31 freeway itself. I would have kept the US-395 designation for what became I-215. But everyone knows that I-shield is good for promoting business and civic pride, and that CA started hating when US routes ran concurrent with interstates after 1964. 

[Interstate Trav]

Do you by any chance have Beaumont to Palm Springs along I-10, from before it was I-10 when it was US 60-70-99 and in Indio when Indio Blvd was US 99?  That would be really cool if you could post that.

[dcairns]

Does anybody have a photo of the cover of a 1964 Thomas Guide for Los Angeles and/or Orange County?  I am looking for one to go with my 64 Impala.  Looking at the ebay offerings, it seems some earlier years and other regions did not have the year on the cover.  But I have not seen a '64 cover to know if it has the year on it. 

Thanks

[SimMoonXP]

Does anybody have a photo of the cover of a 1964 Thomas Guide for Los Angeles and/or Orange County?  I am looking for one to go with my 64 Impala.  Looking at the ebay offerings, it seems some earlier years and other regions did not have the year on the cover.  But I have not seen a '64 cover to know if it has the year on it. 

Thanks

1964 Los Angeles and Orange Counties cover without year mark on it.


1964 Los Angeles County table of Contents page with year on it

[dcairns]

Thanks!  As luck would have it, I did bag one off of ebay about a month after posting that.  I paid rather dearly at $68, but it is what I needed to go with my 64 Impala.  Great fun looking at the way the roads used to be here in OC, when I was 3 years old

[SimMoonXP]

Thanks!  As luck would have it, I did bag one off of ebay about a month after posting that.  I paid rather dearly at $68, but it is what I needed to go with my 64 Impala.  Great fun looking at the way the roads used to be here in OC, when I was 3 years old

Very cool.

One question is: Do you have any of Thomas Bros mapbooks in your collection?

[dcairns]

The '64 is the only one I have "collected" due to it's relevance to my 64 Impala.  I have an 2006 a 1993 and somewhere, an 1988 (I think).  But those were purchased new to use, and I am something of a packrat

[Bickendan]

SimMoon, did you have a copy of the Trimble Atlas? That's the one Thomas Bros. map I'm particularly interested in.

[SimMoonXP]

Yes I do, What area do you want to see it in photo/scan?

[NE2]

holy crap someone needs to lay off the speed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Guide

[Bickendan]

Yes I do, What area do you want to see it in photo/scan?

I'm interested in the entire thing, really.

[Bickendan]

Nice overlay with the OSM map! It also really shows the strength of the Thomas Bros maps

[Desert Man]

The CA 60/91 I-215 (former US routes 60/91/395) overpass in Riverside was redesigned in recent years, no longer a "cloverleaf" overpass the 1969 and 1977 TBM pages shown. To the left of the Santa Ana river is the new incorporated city of Jurupa Valley. So much changes over the decades and wait until you find older maps of downtown Riverside available online.

The Lake Elsinore area has grown dramatically in the 1980s and 90s, the proximity of Casino Drive and Railroad Canyon Road has shopping centers not found in the 1984 and 1988 TBM, and there's the minor league baseball facility the Diamond (home of the Lake Elsinore Storm) opened in 1994.