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IN US 31 Kokomo Bypass Upgrade Report

Started by mukade, June 26, 2011, 04:54:46 PM

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NE2

Quote from: mukade on October 28, 2012, 08:51:55 AM
Question: How would one clearly convey the information on the I-65 and I-469 signs more efficiently?

I-469 is left as an exercise to the reader.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".


mukade

I like it... except i would have the markers stacked vertically.

NE2

Quote from: mukade on October 28, 2012, 09:36:49 AM
I like it... except i would have the markers stacked vertically.
You mean you'd have it as it is, an objective waste of materials.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

mukade

Quote from: NE2 on October 28, 2012, 09:38:53 AM
Quote from: mukade on October 28, 2012, 09:36:49 AM
I like it... except i would have the markers stacked vertically.
You mean you'd have it as it is, an objective waste of materials.

If the markers and font are kept standard INDOT size, the width of the sign would increase. The way it is done now, you tend to get narrow, tall signs. Side by side yields wide, short signs (like the Ohio example).  In your photoshop example, you shrunk the markers to fit a specific sign. If you endorse smaller markers and fonts and then use a horizontal layout, you would likely save material.

I like it the way it is, and I like variation between the states. The INDOT signage is clear and the material waste is generally insignificant. People are free that have their own likes and dislikes, and in the end, that is exactly what this discussion is about.

NE2

Quote from: mukade on October 28, 2012, 10:55:21 AM
In your photoshop example, you shrunk the markers to fit a specific sign.
???
Do it yourself if you believe I cheated: http://www.interstate-guide.com/images265/i-265_in_et_06.jpg

Yes, the I-469 example would need to be horizontally stretched. Or you could keep I-69 on its own line and still get some vertical savings.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

PurdueBill

Quote from: vtk on October 27, 2012, 04:39:33 PM
Quote from: mukade on October 27, 2012, 08:37:09 AM


That sign's not a great example, but it's closer to the most compact possible layout.  Move the directions above their shields, and do something other than those silly arrows.  If they're not aligned above lanes, they don't have to be 12 feet apart – for that matter, a simple text action message "KEEP RIGHT" would make more sense for this location anyway.

Anyway, I'm entitled to my opinion that INDOT's standard BGS layouts are ugly.  While that's not itself a reason for INDOT change their standard, I seem to recall someone telling me they were going to do so a few years ago.  Now I feel like someone broke a promise or something.  It's annoying, and the result is I bitch about it like Napoleon Dynamite.  God!

The sign pictured is a somewhat recent carbon-copy of a button copy sign with similar arrows.  The arrows never made sense to me....while there is a left exit for US 23 NB coming up, it exits from the left lane.  No lane drop until after the left exit, and really no reason for the dual arrows on a ground-mounted sign.  Why not a gantry with the signage for the left exit and the continuation of US 30 on 23, like at the analogous approach on US 30 WB approaching 23 on the other side of Upper Sandusky, pictured below, making the dual-arrow sign a conventional pull-through?


tdindy88

Quote from: mukade on October 27, 2012, 11:21:37 PM
The better question is why US 35 needs to exist in Indiana at all. It serves no purpose; it is just another useless US highway. If it did not exist, this sign layout would also not exist.

I think US 35 serves at least some of a purpose from Kokomo north to Logansport and Michigan City and likewise from Muncie to Richmond, connecting those communities. Sure, we could put another number on those highways, but the connection is nice to have. It's the multiplexed segments along SR 22 and I-69 that mess things up. I thought about this a little, how about we get rid of SR 22, or at least the segment that is multiplexed from Kokomo to I-69. That would also take care of the sign problem and not cut out any of the U.S. highway system.

mukade

Quote from: tdindy88 on October 28, 2012, 07:45:23 PM
Quote from: mukade on October 27, 2012, 11:21:37 PM
The better question is why US 35 needs to exist in Indiana at all. It serves no purpose; it is just another useless US highway. If it did not exist, this sign layout would also not exist.

I think US 35 serves at least some of a purpose from Kokomo north to Logansport and Michigan City and likewise from Muncie to Richmond, connecting those communities. Sure, we could put another number on those highways, but the connection is nice to have. It's the multiplexed segments along SR 22 and I-69 that mess things up. I thought about this a little, how about we get rid of SR 22, or at least the segment that is multiplexed from Kokomo to I-69. That would also take care of the sign problem and not cut out any of the U.S. highway system.

US 35 is made up of historic SR 29 (from Michigan City to Logansport), a road that was planned to be SR 17 (between Logansport and Kokomo), and SR 21 (from Jonesboro  to Richmond). When US 35 came to Indiana, SR 35 south of Indy was renumbered to SR 135. I don't think many people would travel from Michigan City to Richmond via US 35 so in my opinion, it could revert to SR 29 and SR 21 on their historic routes. From Logansport to Kokomo, it could be SR 35 (or SR 17, but that is misplaced in the grid).

You are right about the concurrencies with SR 22 and I-69, but also the multiplexes with US 31, SR 28, SR 3, and I-70 show that a large distance of this designation is simply redundant. Apparently, INDOT likes US 35, though. My theory on why INDOT keeps SR 22 with US 35 is that they don't want that many miles of a N-S route going east and west. The concurrency reduces confusion.

I also think US 421 north of Greensburg is unnecessary, but that can be for another discussion.

theline

Quote from: mukade on October 27, 2012, 11:21:37 PM

The better question is why US 35 needs to exist in Indiana at all. It serves no purpose; it is just another useless US highway.

I've wondered myself why US 35 continues to exist, since it is largely duplexed. As a Muncie native, I recall that one reason for its existence is to allow Muncie to get mentions on two, rather than just one exit from I-69. Muncie only got mentioned at the SR-67/SR-32 exit when I-69 first opened. US 35 was rerouted from its original Wheeling Pike route to follow I-69 and SR-28, specifically so the exit signs at 28 could mention Muncie as a control city. Until then, the control cities were Albany and Alexandria. (SR-332 wasn't built until many years later, so the Frankton exit didn't mention Muncie.)

tdindy88

That mention of Muncie made me remember of an article in the Muncie Star Press years ago about the SR 332 exit and why the town of Frankton is listed above Muncie. This was a bit of an uproar over the fact that this little town of Frankton was listed above the larger city of Muncie, but that's for another time. And speaking of US 421, now that I see it on the map, north of Greensburg it's I-74, I-465, SR 29, SR 28, SR 39, US 24 and former SR 43. I can probably do without 421 north of Greensburg too.

NWI_Irish96

Quote from: theline on October 29, 2012, 07:46:37 PM
Quote from: mukade on October 27, 2012, 11:21:37 PM

The better question is why US 35 needs to exist in Indiana at all. It serves no purpose; it is just another useless US highway.

I've wondered myself why US 35 continues to exist, since it is largely duplexed. As a Muncie native, I recall that one reason for its existence is to allow Muncie to get mentions on two, rather than just one exit from I-69. Muncie only got mentioned at the SR-67/SR-32 exit when I-69 first opened. US 35 was rerouted from its original Wheeling Pike route to follow I-69 and SR-28, specifically so the exit signs at 28 could mention Muncie as a control city. Until then, the control cities were Albany and Alexandria. (SR-332 wasn't built until many years later, so the Frankton exit didn't mention Muncie.)

There is very little duplexing with US 35 north of Kokomo, and it's the main route from Kokomo/Logansport to Michigan City.  I don't see US 35 ever going away.  Stopping US 421 at Greensburg makes more sense.
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
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hbelkins



Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

tdindy88

Kokomo is now trying to annex land out to the new US 31 bypass, which is the kind of thing that made the current US 31 bypass such an enjoyable ride today. Thankfully, the new bypass will be a freeway so I don't really care what Kokomo will do, I won't be stopping.

http://kokomotribune.com/local/x1752035858/Council-OKs-Southeast-Annexation


mukade

From what I have read, they are going to the opposite extreme now not wanting service businesses along US 31 so as to not jeopardize existing businesses. Unless a offices, warehousing, light industry, or a 25 acre planned development that could include hotels and restaurants is started, these interchanges will remain isolated, relatively speaking (assuming you call services a mile away isolated).

ftballfan

Quote from: roadman65 on October 26, 2012, 04:35:00 AM
All seems to be going well.  Nice photos of the progress!  It is a shame now, because all the eating establishments will not be on US 31 itself when completed.  My favorite buffet: The King Buffet at the intersection of US 31 and SR 22 will no longer be on the beaten path, either I will have to use SR 931 or exit at SR 22.  At least, some relief for locals as the bypass was built for them as well as to set the way for future I-67. 

Haven't been there in over four years, but the next time I most likely get up that way the whole thing will be open.

The bypass looks like it will only be at most two miles east of SR 931 (which is a bypass itself)

mukade

Quote from: ftballfan on December 09, 2012, 11:29:11 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 26, 2012, 04:35:00 AM
All seems to be going well.  Nice photos of the progress!  It is a shame now, because all the eating establishments will not be on US 31 itself when completed.  My favorite buffet: The King Buffet at the intersection of US 31 and SR 22 will no longer be on the beaten path, either I will have to use SR 931 or exit at SR 22.  At least, some relief for locals as the bypass was built for them as well as to set the way for future I-67. 

Haven't been there in over four years, but the next time I most likely get up that way the whole thing will be open.

The bypass looks like it will only be at most two miles east of SR 931 (which is a bypass itself)

Yes, this is true. Services are within a mile at four interchanges. I would guess the US 35 interchange is two miles away from anything. The two merges with SR 931 are also a couple of miles away from anything.

silverback1065

Are they going to open the whole thing at once, or are they going to open it in sections?

mukade

Supposedly all at once next fall. Over half is completely done minus striping and some signs.

monty

Quote from: mukade on December 09, 2012, 09:24:48 PM
Quote from: ftballfan on December 09, 2012, 11:29:11 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on October 26, 2012, 04:35:00 AM
All seems to be going well.  Nice photos of the progress!  It is a shame now, because all the eating establishments will not be on US 31 itself when completed.  My favorite buffet: The King Buffet at the intersection of US 31 and SR 22 will no longer be on the beaten path, either I will have to use SR 931 or exit at SR 22.  At least, some relief for locals as the bypass was built for them as well as to set the way for future I-67. 

Haven't been there in over four years, but the next time I most likely get up that way the whole thing will be open.

The bypass looks like it will only be at most two miles east of SR 931 (which is a bypass itself)

Yes, this is true. Services are within a mile at four interchanges. I would guess the US 35 interchange is two miles away from anything. The two merges with SR 931 are also a couple of miles away from anything.

The US 35 & IN 22 (Markland Ave) interchange will be the closest to traditional highway interchange service establishments as most all of the area west of the new US 31 was already zoned properly before the construction began.  It's a little over a mile to the McDonalds which is at the IN 22 & IN 931 intersection.  Look for this area to become the "service strip" in Kokomo.  Also, the King's Buffet closed, probably due to the Habachi Grill opened nearby.
monty

mukade

Quote from: monty on January 14, 2013, 09:38:09 PM
The US 35 & IN 22 (Markland Ave) interchange will be the closest to traditional highway interchange service establishments as most all of the area west of the new US 31 was already zoned properly before the construction began.  It's a little over a mile to the McDonalds which is at the IN 22 & IN 931 intersection.  Look for this area to become the "service strip" in Kokomo.

That does not square with what the City of Kokomo says. They say no development will be allowed along the highway for several months. When the moratorium is lifted, strict restrictions will be in place to dictate the kind of development that will be allowed. While you don't want to repeat errors of the 1950s and 1960s, this seems to be too far the other way.

roadman65

Well, it looks like no threat from Wal Mart here, as they already have a store just east of the US 31 & SR 22 intersection.  Usually, Wal Mart will always build near an interstate interchange (or in this case a freeway bypass), and it either was luck in this case, or they knew the super highway was going to be built.

They are known for being "Downtown Destroyers" or " Mom & Pop Killers" for their modern facilities always on the bypasses or outside town or both taking away consumers from the business district small businesses.  In this case it was always outside, but cause US 31 was moved in the 50's to there.  Like you said, it will be another service strip, unless they cap development.

They should, though, widen SR 22 between new and old US 31 as traffic will increase as this will be the main artery into Downtown Kokomo once the freeway opens.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

mukade

Quote from: roadman65 on January 16, 2013, 06:38:25 PM
Well, it looks like no threat from Wal Mart here, as they already have a store just east of the US 31 & SR 22 intersection.  Usually, Wal Mart will always build near an interstate interchange (or in this case a freeway bypass), and it either was luck in this case, or they knew the super highway was going to be built.

They are known for being "Downtown Destroyers" or " Mom & Pop Killers" for their modern facilities always on the bypasses or outside town or both taking away consumers from the business district small businesses.  In this case it was always outside, but cause US 31 was moved in the 50's to there.  Like you said, it will be another service strip, unless they cap development.

They should, though, widen SR 22 between new and old US 31 as traffic will increase as this will be the main artery into Downtown Kokomo once the freeway opens.

SR 22 was widened (completely rebuilt) last year from just east of CR 300E to Goyer so it is very sufficient. For that matter, Boulevard/CR 100S was also widened to four lanes from US 31 to Goyer and new US 35 (at CR 400N) extension/widening is underway. The only one remaining to be improved, but not widened is the connection from US 31 at Touby Pike to old US 31/future SR 931. I think that may happen in 2013.

monty

#72
Quote from: mukade on January 16, 2013, 06:17:32 PM
Quote from: monty on January 14, 2013, 09:38:09 PM
The US 35 & IN 22 (Markland Ave) interchange will be the closest to traditional highway interchange service establishments as most all of the area west of the new US 31 was already zoned properly before the construction began.  It's a little over a mile to the McDonalds which is at the IN 22 & IN 931 intersection.  Look for this area to become the "service strip" in Kokomo.


That does not square with what the City of Kokomo says. They say no development will be allowed along the highway for several months. When the moratorium is lifted, strict restrictions will be in place to dictate the kind of development that will be allowed. While you don't want to repeat errors of the 1950s and 1960s, this seems to be too far the other way.

The moratorium is in place to prevent a zoning change. Much of the Markland area west of the new highway was already zoned for business prior to any construction. Thus my reasoning. I agree the city and county have been aggressive to keep land speculation down and to protect established businesses. It will be interesting to see how it all ends up in the long haul.

Quotes go at the bottom.
monty

silverback1065

Quote from: mukade on January 16, 2013, 06:45:30 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on January 16, 2013, 06:38:25 PM
Well, it looks like no threat from Wal Mart here, as they already have a store just east of the US 31 & SR 22 intersection.  Usually, Wal Mart will always build near an interstate interchange (or in this case a freeway bypass), and it either was luck in this case, or they knew the super highway was going to be built.

They are known for being "Downtown Destroyers" or " Mom & Pop Killers" for their modern facilities always on the bypasses or outside town or both taking away consumers from the business district small businesses.  In this case it was always outside, but cause US 31 was moved in the 50's to there.  Like you said, it will be another service strip, unless they cap development.

They should, though, widen SR 22 between new and old US 31 as traffic will increase as this will be the main artery into Downtown Kokomo once the freeway opens.

SR 22 was widened (completely rebuilt) last year from just east of CR 300E to Goyer so it is very sufficient. For that matter, Boulevard/CR 100S was also widened to four lanes from US 31 to Goyer and new US 35 (at CR 400N) extension/widening is underway. The only one remaining to be improved, but not widened is the connection from US 31 at Touby Pike to old US 31/future SR 931. I think that may happen in 2013.

Are the going to be any improvements that will be made on future 931?

mukade

Quote from: monty on January 16, 2013, 11:02:52 PM
Quote from: mukade on January 16, 2013, 06:17:32 PM
That does not square with what the City of Kokomo says. They say no development will be allowed along the highway for several months. When the moratorium is lifted, strict restrictions will be in place to dictate the kind of development that will be allowed. While you don't want to repeat errors of the 1950s and 1960s, this seems to be too far the other way.

The moratorium is in place to prevent a zoning change. Much of the Markland area west of the new highway was already zoned for business prior to any construction. Thus my reasoning. I agree the city and county have been aggressive to keep land speculation down and to protect established businesses. It will be interesting to see how it all ends up in the long haul.

Because the city annexed the area, the zoning may not be exactly the same as the county had. How it will be controlled is that any request to subdivide the large parcels will be tabled until they are ready. If a large office building or light industrial facility that required no subdivision was proposed, that could be built, but 1) what are the chances of that? and 2) office or light industry is what they really want. Overall, it is very good to have a master plan and prevent something like two big truck stops and another strip club from being built on potentially prime commercial real estate. What seems unrealistic is to think the existing US 31 strip can be fully protected by severely limiting new building at the new highway. For one thing, when a government picks and chooses who can and can't build, corruption usually comes into the picture. I would say they have the right idea, but are taking it a bit too far.

Quote from: silverback1065 on January 16, 2013, 11:45:41 PM
Are the going to be any improvements that will be made on future 931?

Other than resurfacing and the new interchanges, the state is probably done with SR 931. They want the city or county to take it. It will likely end up being something like to the Keystone Pkwy deal where the state gives some amount of money to rebuild it, and the city uses that as their portion of funding for a federal grant project. It would probably lose its highway characteristics and become a boulevard.



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