DST/DWT in North America (US/Canada)

[SSOWorld]

My NOAA weather radio will be accurate again tomorrow 



NOTE: DWT is my term for this policy (Daylight wasting time)

[CNGL-Leudimin]

The different start date for DST is why I'm switching to Central time, as I'll continue to quote 'my local time - 6 hours'. It will align again with Eastern once DST comes into effect in Europe in two weeks. This also makes my forum time to be one hour ahead my local time, and again will return to correct at the same time.

Oh, and since Arizona (except for the Navajo nation) doesn't observe DST, I consider it switches from Mountain to Pacific time.

[Max Rockatansky]

The different start date for DST is why I'm switching to Central time, as I'll continue to quote 'my local time - 6 hours'. It will align again with Eastern once DST comes into effect in Europe in two weeks. This also makes my forum time to be one hour ahead my local time, and again will return to correct at the same time.

Oh, and since Arizona (except for the Navajo nation) doesn't observe DST, I consider it switches from Mountain to Pacific time.

I wish that they would all the time zones would stay on Daylights Savings through the year regardless.  But at least I have the bonus of getting a free hour whenever I'm traveling home Arizona starting tomorrow

[english si]

Oh, and since Arizona (except for the Navajo nation) doesn't observe DST, I consider it switches from Mountain to Pacific time.

I consider it to stay Mountain, with CA, NV, etc moving to Mountain and CO, NM, Navajo moving to Central: DST is about pretending you live further east than you do rather than just move stuff earlier now you have the light in the morning.

In two weeks Barcelona moves from Berlin time (already 1h ahead of local solar time) to Bucharest time - total madness.

[kendancy66]

Oh, and since Arizona (except for the Navajo nation) doesn't observe DST, I consider it switches from Mountain to Pacific time.

I consider it to stay Mountain, with CA, NV, etc moving to Mountain and CO, NM, Navajo moving to Central: DST is about pretending you live further east than you do rather than just move stuff earlier now you have the light in the morning.

In two weeks Barcelona moves from Berlin time (already 1h ahead of local solar time) to Bucharest time - total madness.

If you start calling PDT mountain time because of Arizona. Then what are going to call the rest of the mountain time that goes to daylight saving time.  I believe that since Arizona is the exeption then they should fall into PDT an already established Time Zone

[Jardine]

I might appreciate the longer time after supper that is still suitable for outdoor work (and I'm not a morning person at all, so there is that), nevertheless, even a 1 hour change means I'm going to be loopy for a week.

Hell, it's 1:35 PM right now and I'm gonna go take a nap, and it hasn't even happened yet.

[Max Rockatansky]

Oh, and since Arizona (except for the Navajo nation) doesn't observe DST, I consider it switches from Mountain to Pacific time.

I consider it to stay Mountain, with CA, NV, etc moving to Mountain and CO, NM, Navajo moving to Central: DST is about pretending you live further east than you do rather than just move stuff earlier now you have the light in the morning.

In two weeks Barcelona moves from Berlin time (already 1h ahead of local solar time) to Bucharest time - total madness.

If you start calling PDT mountain time because of Arizona. Then what are going to call the rest of the mountain time that goes to daylight saving time.  I believe that since Arizona is the exeption then they should fall into PDT an already established Time Zone

Maybe simply the Arizona Time Zone?  Basically the only reason the Navajo Nation does daylight savings is simply due to the fact that the reservation extends in New Mexico Ana Colorado.  I'm fairly certain the Hopi are still following Arizona in regards to a lack of Daylight Savings.  Interestingly I'm to understand the reason Arizona does things the way they do is to have an early sunrise which supposedly saves on energy because people are still sleeping. When I was living in the state it was a boon for me because I had enough useable daylight to do things outside by 4:30 AM. Made hiking, running and off-roasting alone on the weekends much more attainable. 

[davewiecking]

Made hiking, running and off-roasting alone on the weekends much more attainable.

Sorry-but this typo is rather amusing. I was going to say I'm more likely to be roasting closer to dinnertime. But I can interpret this other ways also...

I usually bump my clock on the Friday of the weekend, unless I have an important meeting on Saturday and I don't want to remember (edited to add: "remember the clock is wrong", not "remember the meeting"). The meeting being over, I've set my cable box to switch to the proper hoop game at the proper time, regardless of what my clocks think. 48 hours is plenty of time to adapt.

[Duke87]

DST is about pretending you live further east than you do rather than just move stuff earlier now you have the light in the morning.

Easier said than done given the scheduling obligations the real world tends to impose upon us. I would love to get into the habit of waking up at 6 AM every day in the summer but to do this I would need to get into the habit of going to bed at 10 PM every night. Which in turn would mean leaving every party I go to early, not being able to go out to shows and concerts, etc.

Like it or not people are conditioned to schedule their lives according to what the clock says rather than according to what the sun is doing. It is easier psychologically for us to collectively change what the clock says in order to account for varying day lengths than it would be for us to collectively agree to start doing everything at an earlier numerical time.
Besides, if we left the clocks alone but started telling all employees that work 9 to 5 to start working 8 to 4 on Monday and so forth, it would be functionally identical to just changing the clocks.

The only reason DST is as disruptive as it is is because we make the change all at once, rather than gradually over the course of the season.

[Max Rockatansky]

Made hiking, running and off-roasting alone on the weekends much more attainable.

Sorry-but this typo is rather amusing. I was going to say I'm more likely to be roasting closer to dinnertime. But I can interpret this other ways also...

I usually bump my clock on the Friday of the weekend, unless I have an important meeting on Saturday and I don't want to remember (edited to add: "remember the clock is wrong", not "remember the meeting"). The meeting being over, I've set my cable box to switch to the proper hoop game at the proper time, regardless of what my clocks think. 48 hours is plenty of time to adapt.

Yeah you can thank the fact my iPhone thinks it understands human speech better than I do.  I was suffering through an onslaught of overwrought elongated previews (seriously is 20 minutes of them really required?) while waiting for 10 Cloverfield Lane to start, I meant to say off-roading.  Considering it was Phoenix if I didn't get up before the sun was up I would be roasting...usually it was something to the affect of 115-130 F in the sun in the summer time.

[english si]

I consider it to stay Mountain, with CA, NV, etc moving to Mountain and CO, NM, Navajo moving to Central: DST is about pretending you live further east than you do rather than just move stuff earlier now you have the light in the morning.

If you start calling PDT mountain time because of Arizona. Then what are going to call the rest of the mountain time that goes to daylight saving time.

I've already said. PDT=MST. It's a fiction to keep stuff the same clock time, but move the clock time relative to the solar day in order to get the most from the sun rising early - you are pretending you live further east than you do.

[english si]

Easier said than done given the scheduling obligations the real world tends to impose upon us.

I didn't say that it doesn't make good sense to do it for scheduling purposes. It does.

Besides, if we left the clocks alone but started telling all employees that work 9 to 5 to start working 8 to 4 on Monday and so forth, it would be functionally identical to just changing the clocks.

Indeed - that's my point, DST is a fiction created to avoid having to make that cognitive shift of all the times changing.

The only reason DST is as disruptive as it is is because we make the change all at once, rather than gradually over the course of the season.

And we make it slightly too early in Spring and way too late in Fall. (Especially you guys who get a whole extra month of DST compared to Europe). Certainly when we change (and how we change) is more troublesome than that we change.

Arguably, the UK could do a second shift for high summer as it is still light before 0500 May-July, but when you have post-2100 (9 pm) sunsets for a lot of that period, why bother taking it further? And I've seen some call for a shift back to standard as it's a nightmare getting kids to bed in June when the sun is up well past their bedtime - basically that we don't need that much light in the evenings, so lets dump it in the morning where it is slightly less annoying.

[1995hoo]

The different start date for DST is why I'm switching to Central time, as I'll continue to quote 'my local time - 6 hours'. It will align again with Eastern once DST comes into effect in Europe in two weeks. This also makes my forum time to be one hour ahead my local time, and again will return to correct at the same time.

Oh, and since Arizona (except for the Navajo nation) doesn't observe DST, I consider it switches from Mountain to Pacific time.

I wish that they would all the time zones would stay on Daylights Savings through the year regardless.  But at least I have the bonus of getting a free hour whenever I'm traveling home Arizona starting tomorrow

I dislike the idea of year-round Daylight Saving Time because it would make it significantly darker on winter mornings with no corresponding benefit in the evening. I'll use this past December 21 as an example since that was the winter solstice, the shortest day of the year, although it's interesting to note the winter solstice is NOT the day with the latest sunrise nor the earliest sunset. Where I live (ZIP Code 22315), sunrise that day was at 7:23 and sunset was at 16:49, both Eastern Standard Time. If we'd been on Eastern Daylight Time, sunrise would have been at 8:23, meaning pretty much everybody would have to wake up and commute in the dark, and sunset would have been at 17:49, meaning pretty much everybody would have gotten off work and commuted home in the dark. Under the present system, the morning commute is reasonably bright at that time of year, but the evening commute is in the dark. So year-round DST would put the morning commute in the dark while not improving things for the evening commute and after-work hours.

So what benefit would there be to year-round DST, then? It's already hard enough to get yourself out of bed on dark, cold winter mornings as it is. Having sunrise at 8:23 (or later in places like New York or Boston) would be miserable. True, sunrise here today (March 13, the day the clocks went ahead) was at 7:20, but sunset was at 19:14. That means come tomorrow, the commute home for most people will be in sunlight. I guess there's a sun glare issue on certain roads that wouldn't be there if we didn't have DST or if we had stayed on either of the old schedules. But, setting aside the question of when the clocks should change (I happen to think we do it too early in the year), I think most people who don't live in desert climates probably prefer that extra sunlight in the evening after work than in the morning. I must say when I visited Phoenix last year I certainly understood why in the desert the earlier sunset is a positive.

(Obviously there are places further north where the hours are more extreme. I remember when we visited Helsinki in July 2007, sunrise was around 4:50 and sunset was around 22:00, although it didn't get dark until later. The downside of that comes in winter–this past December 21, sunrise was at 9:23 and sunset at 15:13, less than six hours later. There, again, I see the same question: What benefit would there be to having sunrise at 10:23 if all you do is move sunset to 16:13?)

[realjd]

^^^
I support DST year-round. In the winter here, I wake up in the dark and leave work as the sun is setting. Year-round DST would give me an hour after work in December, Jan, and Feb for yard work, to take my kid to the park, or to hit up the driving range. Plus mentally, leaving work with at least some daylight left makes me feel like I didn't spend the whole day at work. Our days down here are much longer in the winter though. We don't get 4:30 sunsets like those up north do.

I'm very happy that DST started again. I already have plans to meet a few friends after work one night this week for 9 holes.

[1995hoo]

I think that's a great example of why your location may be a big factor in this discussion, just like the issue of not having DST in Arizona because of the climate. I've certainly noticed when we travel to Florida how in the winter sunset is half an hour later than it is at home and in the summer it's earlier. (I've never noticed as to sunrise because on vacation I sleep in!)

As a practical matter, again based on my location and the issues raised in my prior comment, to me if they had to standardize one way or the other year-round I would opt for "no DST" because of the issue of the mornings during the winter. During the summer it's light enough even if sunset were at 19:37 instead of 20:37, and of course you still have some level of light for a while after the actual "sunset" time. But I certainly understand why people like that later sunset in the summer, especially if you need to do things like yard work or the like when you get home in the evening. I can use a lamp to cook outside (as I do during the winter), but not all activities are that easy.

EDITED to add: I forgot to mention another thought. Around here on the first day of summer, sunrise is at around 5:43 and sunset at 20:37, both with DST. So without DST, sunrise would be at 4:43. Who wants that?

[KEVIN_224]

Even with Daylight Saving Time, the sunrise in Portland, ME on June 21st is 4:59 AM. Of course it'll be even earlier up in Bangor and Presque Isle. Here outside of Hartford, CT, the day gets as long as roughly 5:16 AM and 8:30 PM.

[english si]

So without DST, sunrise would be at 4:43. Who wants that?

London literally has that, with DST, from the 11th to the 22nd of June.. But, as I said earlier, moving to double DST then would mean very late sunsets - we're already talking about post-9PM as it is!

Astronomical Twilight (when the sun is still illuminating the sky, rather than it being absolutely dark) in London from May 23rd to July 20th is "Rest of Night" - ie there's no real night. Civil Twilight (when the street lights aren't on) gets as early as 0355 and as late as 2210. Solar Noon around this time is about 1300 (1PM) as these times have DST.

And that's London - further north in the UK it lasts longer. Aberdeen has 0412-2208 day time (with a good 70 minutes of civil twilight either side). Lerwick has 0338-2234 as its range.


Anchorage has about four weeks where civil twilight exists for the whole night. Latest sunset at 23:42, earliest sunrise at 0420 (ADST).

[hbelkins]

Glad to see DST back. More daylight in the afternoons when I get off work.

[jeffandnicole]

It was cloudy and rainy yesterday, and looks to be the same today.  So far, 2 days in, all I got for DST so far is later days of dull clouds.  Where's my refund, and who do I sue?

[Rothman]

I'm sure this has been stated before, but whoever voted to move the start of DST to the beginning of March should come live in the Northeast where your mornings are sent back into the dark after a couple of weeks of lighter mornings before springing forward.

Just putting them through that would be some measure of justice.

[freebrickproductions]

Well, the clock in my bathroom is accurate again.

[vdeane]

I'm sure this has been stated before, but whoever voted to move the start of DST to the beginning of March should come live in the Northeast where your mornings are sent back into the dark after a couple of weeks of lighter mornings before springing forward.

Just putting them through that would be some measure of justice.

Agreed.  Having to get up for work when the sky is practically indistinguishable from midnight is IMO a crime against humanity.

[CNGL-Leudimin]

Where I live (ZIP Code 22315)

Wow, I didn't know you lived some 30 miles East of me. (Seriously, I need a trollface)

[1995hoo]

So without DST, sunrise would be at 4:43. Who wants that?

London literally has that, with DST, from the 11th to the 22nd of June.. But, as I said earlier, moving to double DST then would mean very late sunsets - we're already talking about post-9PM as it is!

Astronomical Twilight (when the sun is still illuminating the sky, rather than it being absolutely dark) in London from May 23rd to July 20th is "Rest of Night" - ie there's no real night. Civil Twilight (when the street lights aren't on) gets as early as 0355 and as late as 2210. Solar Noon around this time is about 1300 (1PM) as these times have DST.

And that's London - further north in the UK it lasts longer. Aberdeen has 0412-2208 day time (with a good 70 minutes of civil twilight either side). Lerwick has 0338-2234 as its range.


Anchorage has about four weeks where civil twilight exists for the whole night. Latest sunset at 23:42, earliest sunrise at 0420 (ADST).

Sure, of course I understand that. I remember being in Edinburgh one April and it was just getting dark around 20:30. Really that's another example of why one's location can be so relevant to this issue. I mentioned before about the hours in Helsinki when we were there, and they were also on what we call DST. Alaska is a great example. People there quite validly question the point of going to DST when the days are already so long during the summer, but on the other hand, since they're already four hours behind the East Coast, the business and government sectors view being five hours behind as even more of a hassle.

[kkt]

Sure, of course I understand that. I remember being in Edinburgh one April and it was just getting dark around 20:30. Really that's another example of why one's location can be so relevant to this issue. I mentioned before about the hours in Helsinki when we were there, and they were also on what we call DST. Alaska is a great example. People there quite validly question the point of going to DST when the days are already so long during the summer, but on the other hand, since they're already four hours behind the East Coast, the business and government sectors view being five hours behind as even more of a hassle.

Yes, the benefit of DST is primarily in places between about 30 degrees and 60 degrees north or south of the equator.  More tropical than 30 degrees, and there's not that much difference in day length between winter and summer.  More polar than 60 degrees, and there's so much daylight in the summer that you don't need the extra hour, and so little daylight in the winter that you're going to work and coming home in the dark regardless.  However, there's still some value in being at the same time difference to major cities that do have DST.