Death by GPS - Why do we follow digital maps into dodgy places?

[noelbotevera]

  https://www.nps.gov/deva/planyourvisit/directions.htm
Even the NPS doesn't want you to follow GPS.

[Max Rockatansky]

https://www.nps.gov/deva/planyourvisit/directions.htm
Even the NPS doesn't want you to follow GPS.

Probably the worst incident I ever heard of at a National Park was at Joshua Tree.  Apparently some kids from Eastern Europe took a Charger all the way up I-10 up past the Cottonwood Visitor Center to Black Eagle Mine Road.  I was told by a park ranger they found the car a couple weeks latter buried up to the axles and the occupants basically were jerkey from the sun.  Apparently they were relying on GPS I'm told as well.

[jeffandnicole]

When people come to my house from the south I tell them to ignore the GPS - get off at a specific exit, use the road that parallels the highway, go straight thru the traffic light, and at that point the GPS will recalculate. 

I forget if it's Garmin or TomTom because one of them is better at getting people to my house, but if they use the one that screws up the directions, they will follow the GPS as it instructs them to use a slip ramp after the next exit.  The problem is, the slip ramp comes up so quick that the GPS barely has a chance to tell them to take it.  Next thing I know, I'm getting a phone call with them telling me they're about 5 miles from my house all confused.

[noelbotevera]

https://www.nps.gov/deva/planyourvisit/directions.htm
Even the NPS doesn't want you to follow GPS.

Probably the worst incident I ever heard of at a National Park was at Joshua Tree.  Apparently some kids from Eastern Europe took a Charger all the way up I-10 up past the Cottonwood Visitor Center to Black Eagle Mine Road.  I was told by a park ranger they found the car a couple weeks latter buried up to the axles and the occupants basically were jerkey from the sun.  Apparently they were relying on GPS I'm told as well.

In fact...
Yeah it's really similar to Death Valley NP where people take roads that no longer exist or their cars can't handle them. This is a desolate area, to be honest, so that should be expected to not rely on the GPS and bring loads of water. Look at these poor souls who stuck to the GPS like glue. I think they deserved to die, they should NOT have survived.

[texaskdog]

It's $80 now for that same National Parks Pass you mentioned.  Worth every dime if you travel to a lot of parks annually like I do.  I think the Park Ranger was trying to punk you, there isn't any traffic lights with the boundary of North Rim....I'm fairly certain there isn't one until Fredonia.

How do you see the North Rim without going into the park???  We just went to Big Bend ($25) knowing we are going to Zion, Bryce, and the North Rim next month so paid the $80.  Kind of a guessing game.

[Max Rockatansky]

https://www.nps.gov/deva/planyourvisit/directions.htm
Even the NPS doesn't want you to follow GPS.

Probably the worst incident I ever heard of at a National Park was at Joshua Tree.  Apparently some kids from Eastern Europe took a Charger all the way up I-10 up past the Cottonwood Visitor Center to Black Eagle Mine Road.  I was told by a park ranger they found the car a couple weeks latter buried up to the axles and the occupants basically were jerkey from the sun.  Apparently they were relying on GPS I'm told as well.

In fact...
Yeah it's really similar to Death Valley NP where people take roads that no longer exist or their cars can't handle them. This is a desolate area, to be honest, so that should be expected to not rely on the GPS and bring loads of water. Look at these poor souls who stuck to the GPS like glue. I think they deserved to die, they should NOT have survived.

Deserve is a strong weird...stupid yes...lucky to survive yes.  And wasn't that basically the same story from the original post?  A lot more went into those decisions than just blindly trusting the GPS.  Throw on top of the GPS a lack of preparation with emergency supplies, a lack of a respect of the terrain, a lack of understanding what road grade qualities are, a lack of map reading ability and a lack of knowing what your vehicle is/isn't capable of leads to situations like that.  Sadly there isn't really a place you can go to get common sense or learn it in a classroom, it's often learned through experience...  Although, I don't think that I felt too comfortable with off-roading until I learned out to read BLM and Topo Maps along with having some eased in experience with high-clearance vehicles before I went too crazy seeking out natural wonders or abandoned mines in the desert.

[texaskdog]

When people come to my house from the south I tell them to ignore the GPS - get off at a specific exit, use the road that parallels the highway, go straight thru the traffic light, and at that point the GPS will recalculate. 

I forget if it's Garmin or TomTom because one of them is better at getting people to my house, but if they use the one that screws up the directions, they will follow the GPS as it instructs them to use a slip ramp after the next exit.  The problem is, the slip ramp comes up so quick that the GPS barely has a chance to tell them to take it.  Next thing I know, I'm getting a phone call with them telling me they're about 5 miles from my house all confused.

People used to refuse to listen to me tell them the short way and listen to their gps which always took them around the long way.

[Max Rockatansky]

It's $80 now for that same National Parks Pass you mentioned.  Worth every dime if you travel to a lot of parks annually like I do.  I think the Park Ranger was trying to punk you, there isn't any traffic lights with the boundary of North Rim....I'm fairly certain there isn't one until Fredonia.

How do you see the North Rim without going into the park???  We just went to Big Bend ($25) knowing we are going to Zion, Bryce, and the North Rim next month so paid the $80.  Kind of a guessing game.

Well you don't since you technically have to enter the NPS boundary.  There is a route that I know exists but it's dirt and from my understanding pretty heavy duty to Mount Trumbull (the big volcano on the North Rim) so I wouldn't suggest trying:

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Mount+Trumbull,+Mohave+County,+AZ/Zion+National+Park,+Utah+84737/@36.6591289,-113.2299647,9z/data=!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x80cb6383ff6952cb:0x860d9d209ea79a65!2m2!1d-113.1382671!2d36.4099814!1m5!1m1!1s0x80caead08844f8d9:0x7c2e3a15aa3656f5!2m2!1d-113.0263005!2d37.2982022?hl=en

Basically all that is a lot of BLM land that passes through Grand Canyon/Parashant National Monument.  Basically the area is uninhabited and rarely visited.  Found a Park Service Map for you:

https://www.nps.gov/para/planyourvisit/maps.htm

[jwolfer]

When people come to my house from the south I tell them to ignore the GPS - get off at a specific exit, use the road that parallels the highway, go straight thru the traffic light, and at that point the GPS will recalculate. 

I forget if it's Garmin or TomTom because one of them is better at getting people to my house, but if they use the one that screws up the directions, they will follow the GPS as it instructs them to use a slip ramp after the next exit.  The problem is, the slip ramp comes up so quick that the GPS barely has a chance to tell them to take it.  Next thing I know, I'm getting a phone call with them telling me they're about 5 miles from my house all confused.

People used to refuse to listen to me tell them the short way and listen to their gps which always took them around the long way.

When I lived in Sanford FL GPS invariably would send people coming down a dirt road an unimproved "paper street" that was part of planned development that never happened. My landlord told me when I went to look at the place to go half a mile down and it was all paved.

Granted not the desolation of northern Nevada, but it was on the edge of preservation land.. i saw deer almost everyday, black bears and wild boars.. it was minutes off i4 not 20 miles from downtown Orlando

[ZLoth]

GPS, paper maps, and online maps are only as good as the people who use them. They are tools. You have to know how to use and understand those tools. Take, for instance, GPS. GPS, by itself, only tells you where you are located by latitude and longitude. It is the maps that tell you exactly where you are, and how to get from point A to point B. GPS is also very when estimating travel times, and have provided alternative routes when rush hour has your main route blocked. I have been known to stare at Google Maps for hours to prepare a trip just to get an idea what to expect.

It always bothers me when people get "new technology" a day or so prior to a trip, then get frustrated when it "doesn't work". Unfortunately, GPS, smartphones, XBox, and Playstations are essentially computers, and more often than not, they need a update right out of the box. People, however, don't want to go through the time and trouble of performing the update. These are the folks who don't read the manual either, or spend some time "playing" with their new toys in a familiar environment. 

But, then again, there are folks who ignore signs that state explicitly "No bull, no service for 106 miles". Death Valley is an extreme example of an unforgiving environment that punishes the unprepared. Then, add a multiplier for Summertime, plus a bonus score if that person is dependent on cell phone to get them out of a jam.

Yes, I have been known to travel off the beaten Interstate, and travel in areas with large distances between filling stations. I carry an ice chest filled with drinks just in case, although the primary reason is to save money.

[jeffandnicole]

It's $80 now for that same National Parks Pass you mentioned.  Worth every dime if you travel to a lot of parks annually like I do.  I think the Park Ranger was trying to punk you, there isn't any traffic lights with the boundary of North Rim....I'm fairly certain there isn't one until Fredonia.

It's $80 now for that same National Parks Pass you mentioned.  Worth every dime if you travel to a lot of parks annually like I do.  I think the Park Ranger was trying to punk you, there isn't any traffic lights with the boundary of North Rim....I'm fairly certain there isn't one until Fredonia.

I'll have to try to recreate the directions, but it was another National Park we approached on our way to the North Rim who ranger told us to go back to the first light if I wanted to avoid paying the fee. It was probably legit directions, but I would've been totally lost.

Remember, this was 2006, not 2015. We didn't have GPSs back then for the most part.

The short runners would be Zion or Bryce National Parks, maybe Pipe Spring National Monument?  I'm fairly certain that there are some dirt roads that still access Mount Trumbell on the North Rim but those won't be anything but a good high clearance vehicle can handle. I'm fairly certain AZ 67 was it until you get by that Park Gate.

It looks like it was Zion National Park. 

Even now, if you use Google Maps for directions from Vegas to Zion National Park to GC North Rim, there's never any mention of the Entry Fee, so like me, it could come as a shock to suddenly bump into this, especially if one doesn't do any additional research.  I probably saw this route as something to drive thru and visit on my drive to the North Rim, but didn't have any intentions of stopping here, so I didn't bother to look into it further.

So, just goes to show that even today, those electronic devices aren't going to fill you in on everything!

BTW, most people go to Grand Canyon's South Rim.  The North Rim is much more wooded and quiet with wildlife everywhere, with limited lodging and dining options.  Definitely off the beaten path...and well worth the trip!

[Max Rockatansky]

It's $80 now for that same National Parks Pass you mentioned.  Worth every dime if you travel to a lot of parks annually like I do.  I think the Park Ranger was trying to punk you, there isn't any traffic lights with the boundary of North Rim....I'm fairly certain there isn't one until Fredonia.

It's $80 now for that same National Parks Pass you mentioned.  Worth every dime if you travel to a lot of parks annually like I do.  I think the Park Ranger was trying to punk you, there isn't any traffic lights with the boundary of North Rim....I'm fairly certain there isn't one until Fredonia.

I'll have to try to recreate the directions, but it was another National Park we approached on our way to the North Rim who ranger told us to go back to the first light if I wanted to avoid paying the fee. It was probably legit directions, but I would've been totally lost.

Remember, this was 2006, not 2015. We didn't have GPSs back then for the most part.

The short runners would be Zion or Bryce National Parks, maybe Pipe Spring National Monument?  I'm fairly certain that there are some dirt roads that still access Mount Trumbell on the North Rim but those won't be anything but a good high clearance vehicle can handle. I'm fairly certain AZ 67 was it until you get by that Park Gate.

It looks like it was Zion National Park. 

Even now, if you use Google Maps for directions from Vegas to Zion National Park to GC North Rim, there's never any mention of the Entry Fee, so like me, it could come as a shock to suddenly bump into this, especially if one doesn't do any additional research.  I probably saw this route as something to drive thru and visit on my drive to the North Rim, but didn't have any intentions of stopping here, so I didn't bother to look into it further.

So, just goes to show that even today, those electronic devices aren't going to fill you in on everything!

BTW, most people go to Grand Canyon's South Rim.  The North Rim is much more wooded and quiet with wildlife everywhere, with limited lodging and dining options.  Definitely off the beaten path...and well worth the trip!

Yeah I'm fairly certain the only reference to a toll being there is the entrance fee page on the NPS website.  Like you said it's completely different ballgame out on the North Rim than the south, much more scenic in my opinion....especially if you take US 89A to pass through the Vermillion Cliffs and Marble Canyon.  I have a lot of friends who go out to Arizona just to see the South Rim, I always tell them to head to the North Rim so they have easy access to Zion and Bryce as well. 

[Roadrunner75]

I still can't bring myself to trust a GPS.  I bought a little Garmin unit a number of years ago because I thought it would be neat to scroll around on the maps, which didn't turn out to be as easy as I thought (and this was before phone maps became big).  We rarely ever pop it out of the glove box except for road trips, and that's really so I can watch my car on the screen depicted as a monster truck, beach ball or tank cruising down the road.  I tried the directions once or twice on a route I already knew well, and I almost immediately had to ignore the directions to take what I knew was a better route ('Recalculating...').  It's basically a tool of last resort, and the atlas and other maps take priority.  I think I'm probably like a lot of people here who have a good spatial awareness (from all those years staring at maps) that just can't cede control to a voice telling us to turn right or left, or even to written directions without a map.

[Max Rockatansky]

I still can't bring myself to trust a GPS.  I bought a little Garmin unit a number of years ago because I thought it would be neat to scroll around on the maps, which didn't turn out to be as easy as I thought (and this was before phone maps became big).  We rarely ever pop it out of the glove box except for road trips, and that's really so I can watch my car on the screen depicted as a monster truck, beach ball or tank cruising down the road.  I tried the directions once or twice on a route I already knew well, and I almost immediately had to ignore the directions to take what I knew was a better route ('Recalculating...').  It's basically a tool of last resort, and the atlas and other maps take priority.  I think I'm probably like a lot of people here who have a good spatial awareness (from all those years staring at maps) that just can't cede control to a voice telling us to turn right or left, or even to written directions without a map.

The great irony is that I tend to use my GPS mostly to find addresses on streets.  Getting around navigating on highways is a breeze but trying to read an address on a busy city street not so much.  But then again that's nothing that Google Street view and a quick photo can't do for me just the same.

[mariethefoxy]

my GPS took me across the bad part of Willmington Delaware once, I seriously thought I was gunna die.

[noelbotevera]

I still can't bring myself to trust a GPS.  I bought a little Garmin unit a number of years ago because I thought it would be neat to scroll around on the maps, which didn't turn out to be as easy as I thought (and this was before phone maps became big).  We rarely ever pop it out of the glove box except for road trips, and that's really so I can watch my car on the screen depicted as a monster truck, beach ball or tank cruising down the road.  I tried the directions once or twice on a route I already knew well, and I almost immediately had to ignore the directions to take what I knew was a better route ('Recalculating...').  It's basically a tool of last resort, and the atlas and other maps take priority.  I think I'm probably like a lot of people here who have a good spatial awareness (from all those years staring at maps) that just can't cede control to a voice telling us to turn right or left, or even to written directions without a map.

I haven't spent as much time staring at maps, but I did later learn that I can't just put my trust into a machine. Humans are better than the machines, as we learn, and they don't. I've gotten better at things. The GPS that we formerly used hasn't. I can get around places fine, and I don't need a machine doing it for us.

[Max Rockatansky]

my GPS took me across the bad part of Willmington Delaware once, I seriously thought I was gunna die.

All I could think of when I read this was the old Awareness Del skit on Saturday Live.  Maybe your GPS was making people aware, aware of Delaware?   

[jeffandnicole]

my GPS took me across the bad part of Willmington Delaware once, I seriously thought I was gunna die.

Fixed. 

[kalvado]

Reminds me how people love to bash walmart, how bad things are, and nobody seem to be their customer!
Yet, there are always lots of cars on a parking lot and lines at checkout...

[jeffandnicole]

Reminds me how people love to bash walmart, how bad things are, and nobody seem to be their customer!
Yet, there are always lots of cars on a parking lot and lines at checkout...

Yep.  And people say that no one shops there anymore, and they'll be out of business.

Then, Target speaks up.  Unless their customers start going to Kmart, they're kinda limited on options where to go.  Walmart continues to do quite well.

See also: McDonalds.  Chick-fil-a.  And every other store on this planet.  Forums dedicated to specific chains are interesting, such as the Flyertalk forums for hotels and airlines.  Guess what...their customers have had enough, and will have you think that any one specific hotel or airline is the worst, and everyone will start flocking to the competitors.  Even better, go back a few years, and those same customers had enough back then too, and they say they're going to start flocking to their competitors!

Oh, and people wonder why companies don't care when customers complain.  Unless a company literally kills their customers (yeah, yeah, I see you back there jumping up and down Chi-Chis) or do something so incredibly stupid over a long period of time, they're probably not going to go out of business anytime soon.

[tckma]

As with most people in this forum, I can make most road trips without the aid of GPS or sometimes even without maps.  I like Waze for its traffic avoidance, and because, in most places, it tends to be kept up-to-date by editors with local knowledge of the areas they edit, something standalone GPS devices lack.

On the second day of the Corridor H meet, I had plans to meet up for breakfast with a friend of mine who lives in Fairmont, WV.  We had plans to have breakfast at the Bob Evans there, which is very easily reached by taking a left turn off the Exit 132 ramp from I-79 southbound (I was coming from my hotel in Morgantown).  I have no idea why I didn't look at the blue services signs.  Waze had me turn right instead, and, not remembering if my friend had said to turn right or left off the ramp, followed Waze as it eventually took me along a dirt road ("turn right on dirt road") through a housing development still under construction, and into the shopping center from the back.  I only decided to continue along this route, knowing it was wrong, because (a) I was early for our meeting, (b) I drive a Subaru with 4WD, and (c) I'm a roadgeek.  Remove (a) or (b) and I would have turned around and went back to where I'd come off I-79.  When I got to the Bob Evans, I noticed that dirt road had started to knock off my front bumper and I had to do some DIY auto body work.

For reference, with this zoom-in on Google Maps, the route it had me take was Vinegar Hill Road to Bentons Ferry Road to bumpy dirt road not on that map to Ashbury Lane and thence to the mall.

I had some short argument with a fellow Area Manager in WV that this should have been marked as a private road.  I lost that argument.

[1995hoo]

....

Apparently GPS devices have a "use major roads" option.  It seems quite clear to me that this option should be mandated by law to be the default, especially since people appear to assume it is anyways.  In fact, I would go so far as to say that perhaps it should be illegal for any kind of driving directions to route someone on a dirt road under any circumstances unless their origin or destination is on one, at the very least if the user doesn't select a "route on minor roads" option that would require the user to read a dialog informing them of the risk that routing entails.  Perhaps we could even go so far as to give the GPS what type of vehicle you're driving every time you turn it on and for the GPS to have data for all types of vehicles (which would help prevent the trucks crashing into bridges because they're using a car GPS).

To me this makes no sense (no offense to vdeane). Part of that, I'm sure, is my distaste for the idea of government inserting itself into everything and for the idea that passing laws is always the solution (and yes, I know some people would consider that second statement odd in view of my line of work). The bigger reason, in my mind, is that I think this is the sort of issue that ultimately falls to personal responsibility. It doesn't matter whether you actually learned how your sat-nav works–it seems to me if you choose to use one, you tacitly accept the responsibility to use it properly and to know how it works.

As it is, I think the one in my primary car can be a bit too nanny-ish. I'd have to go downstairs and turn on the car to confirm, but I believe mine has the following options:

–Direct Route (uses the shortest-distance route to the destination)
–Easy Route (uses the route with the fewest turns, even if it's longer)

Then under each of those you have:
–Maximize Freeways
–Avoid Freeways (it may say "Minimize Freeways," I'm not positive)
–Avoid Toll Roads
....and I think there's one other option I forget, though I think you may be able to avoid surface streets. Then there's "Detour," which is what it sounds like.

What I find nanny-ish is that "Avoid Freeways" is not selectable if the destination is more than 100 miles away because apparently it would take too long for you to make the trip. (Obviously where an all-freeway route is impractical–say, if I'm going from home to Charlottesville–it will typically use the "highest grade" of road available, which in that example is US-29.) I think the same applies to "Avoid Toll Roads," too. I find this to be dumb because it seems to me you might specifically WANT to take a longer route that avoids Interstates for all sorts of perfectly good reasons, and if that's what you want to do, the device ought to accommodate that. I seldom adjust any of those options, BTW. More often than not when I turn on the directions it's because we're on a trip and I want to find a gas station or lunch spot or I want to confirm the routing to lodging or a friend/relative's house we haven't visited in a year or two. In those situations I don't much care how it routes me. (This past Christmas I used it repeatedly for directions to our hotel near Fort Myers because the turn was easy to miss at night.)

[texaskdog]

I like the ones though that will take you on side roads or the unconventional, faster way, like driving around town.

[cpzilliacus]

Perhaps the classic example (in the Middle-Atlantic) of "death by GPS" might just be the low-water bridges that can be found in various places, including this bridge, Va. 624, Morgan Ford Road (now closed and being demolished so it can be replaced with a higher bridge).

I have been told that drivers (following their GPS units but not noticing the ample warning signs, including ones that tell drivers not cross when the bridge is covered by water) have driven out onto a bridge that was covered by flowing water and been swept downstream and drowned.

[kalvado]

Perhaps the classic example (in the Middle-Atlantic) of "death by GPS" might just be the low-water bridges that can be found in various places, including this bridge, Va. 624, Morgan Ford Road (now closed and being demolished so it can be replaced with a higher bridge).

I have been told that drivers (following their GPS units but not noticing the ample warning signs, including ones that tell drivers not cross when the bridge is covered by water) have driven out onto a bridge that was covered by flowing water and been swept downstream and drowned.

I personally witnessed a similar situation - someone driving past police vehicle with flashing lamps blocking the road into a flood on a major  street.
Water was not deep enough to endanger driver, but car remained in water for next 2 hours at least.... No GPS required for that!