Right on Red

[RobbieL2415]

It wasn't legal in most of the US until 1978, but did most people do it anyways before that?  Or was it completely unheard of?

[jeffandnicole]

It wasn't legal in most of the US until 1978, but did most people do it anyways before that?  Or was it completely unheard of?

It was legal in most if not all states west of the Mississippi well before the 1970's.

[Big John]

^^ Yes.  MD was the last state to legalize RTOR in 1978, with DC also legalizing it in 1978 after MD did so..

[US 41]

Is right on a red arrow legal? They added some right red arrows to the Terre Haute area and I'm not 100% sure if I can turn right on red legally or not. I've been just waiting until they turn green.

[Brandon]

Is right on a red arrow legal? They added some right red arrows to the Terre Haute area and I'm not 100% sure if I can turn right on red legally or not. I've been just waiting until they turn green.

Depends on the state.  In Illinois, a red right turn arrow is the same meaning as a red ball.

[PHLBOS]

Massachusetts didn't adopt Right on Red until about 1978.  When that law took effect; NO TURN ON RED signs started appearing like a rash.

[kphoger]

Is right on a red arrow legal? They added some right red arrows to the Terre Haute area and I'm not 100% sure if I can turn right on red legally or not. I've been just waiting until they turn green.

Indiana's vehicle code indicates how drivers should heed green or yellow arrows, but not red arrows.  So I'm not sure the answer to your question is even legally defined.

(3) Steady red indication means the following:
(A) Except as provided in clause (B), vehicular traffic facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a clearly marked stop line. However, if there is no clearly marked stop line, vehicular traffic shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection. If there is no crosswalk, vehicular traffic shall stop before entering the intersection and shall remain standing until an indication to proceed is shown.
(B) Except when a sign is in place prohibiting a turn described in this subdivision, vehicular traffic facing a steady red signal, after coming to a complete stop, may cautiously enter the intersection to do the following:
(i) Make a right turn.
(ii) Make a left turn if turning from the left lane of a one-way street into another one-way street with the flow of traffic.
Vehicular traffic making a turn described in this subdivision shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to other traffic using the intersection.
(C) Unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian control signal pedestrians facing a steady circular red signal alone may not enter the roadway.

[US 81]

Is right on a red arrow legal? They added some right red arrows to the Terre Haute area and I'm not 100% sure if I can turn right on red legally or not. I've been just waiting until they turn green.

Depends on the state.  In Illinois, a red right turn arrow is the same meaning as a red ball.

This is also true for Texas.

[myosh_tino]

Is right on a red arrow legal? They added some right red arrows to the Terre Haute area and I'm not 100% sure if I can turn right on red legally or not. I've been just waiting until they turn green.

Depends on the state.  In Illinois, a red right turn arrow is the same meaning as a red ball.

This is also true for Texas.

Not so in California.  right turn on a red right arrow is not allowed.

From the California Driver Handbook...
No turn against a red arrow—You may not turn right or left against a red arrow.

[kphoger]

They removed one in Wichita a little while ago shortly after it was installed.  An intersection was widened to add a right turn only lane where a LOT of cars turn right.  The new stoplight had a red right turn arrow, and apparently a lot of people decided they weren't allowed to turn right, even though that was the whole point of widening the intersection.  It now uses a red ball for that signal head.

[jakeroot]

I found a map which supposedly shows which states permit right turns on red arrows (green) and which states do not (red). Can't be sure of it's accuracy; from this thread so far, I can determine that it perhaps lists Texas and Indiana as incorrect. The western seaboard is correct, but not sure about anything in between:

Disclaimer: the map is from 2008.

[RobbieL2415]

I found a map which supposedly shows which states permit right turns on red arrows (green) and which states do not (red). Can't be sure of it's accuracy; from this thread so far, I can determine that it perhaps lists Texas and Indiana as incorrect. The western seaboard is correct, but not sure about anything in between:

Disclaimer: the map is from 2008.

I do believe right on a red arrow is legal in CT, but we dont have many of them.

[briantroutman]

I found a map which supposedly shows which states permit right turns on red arrows (green) and which states do not (red). Can't be sure of it's accuracy; from this thread so far, I can determine that it perhaps lists Texas and Indiana as incorrect. The western seaboard is correct, but not sure about anything in between:

Disclaimer: the map is from 2008.

Not that it's really relevant in the case of Pennsylvania because red arrows of any kind are rare and right red arrows ever rarer. (At least on PennDOT roads)

Typically, PennDOT would control a separate right turn with a doghouse-type signal with green and yellow arrows and a red ball atop. (Like this: https://goo.gl/maps/MNAeM2kvZuN2)

[jakeroot]

Typically, PennDOT would control a separate right turn with a doghouse-type signal with green and yellow arrows and a red ball atop. (Like this: https://goo.gl/maps/MNAeM2kvZuN2)

I think four/five-section heads are more common for right turns where there's a straight movement, with three-section heads reserved for cases without straight movements. But I've seen both plenty of times.

Out of curiosity, why did PennDOT install a "RIGHT TURN SIGNAL" sign below that doghouse in your example? If it truly were a dedicated right turn signal, the green ball would, in theory, count as a protected right turn, just as much as the green arrow next to it.

[lepidopteran]

IIRC, Ohio started allowing right turns on red on July 1, 1976, and may have been one of the first states (if not the first) to do so.  At least one signal had a sign from before then, reading "Right turn on red after stop"; it was at a freeway on-ramp, and was taken down sometime after the new law took effect. Of course, the familiar square "No Turn On Red" signs started appearing all around, even in places where it was really not clear that it was needed.

[AlexandriaVA]

I understand right-on-red in rural areas, but it's a scourge anywhere else.

It puts pedestrians at risk, because the person turning right-on-red is just looking to their left to size up a gap, and if the pedestrian is crossing with the signal, the driver won't see them. I know this, because I was hit in just such a situation.

You also have chronic violation of the rule that you're supposed to come to a stop at the stop bar, and then proceed right if all of right-of-way traffic is clear. Yet, around here, you're lucky if people even yield.

I've been honked at for the sin of stopping at a red light before turning right.

Right-on-red should be banned in populated areas.

It was Woody Allen in Annie Hall, discussing why he didn't want to move to California:

I don't want to move to a city where the only cultural advantage is being able to make a right turn on a red light.

[Sykotyk]

As a personal rule, I stop for all right turn arrows that are red. To me, the arrow signifies the movement and it being red signifies that movement is stopped at the moment. Which might mean another direction gets a yellow left arrow or something. So, it's best to not count it. A flashing yellow right arrow, might be the way to go for the states that want right turn traffic to still go with caution.

[briantroutman]

Typically, PennDOT would control a separate right turn with a doghouse-type signal with green and yellow arrows and a red ball atop. (Like this: https://goo.gl/maps/MNAeM2kvZuN2)

I think four/five-section heads are more common for right turns where there's a straight movement, with three-section heads reserved for cases without straight movements. But I've seen both plenty of times.

Out of curiosity, why did PennDOT install a "RIGHT TURN SIGNAL" sign below that doghouse in your example? If it truly were a dedicated right turn signal, the green ball would, in theory, count as a protected right turn, just as much as the green arrow next to it.

It's been fairly standard PennDOT practice to place a "RIGHT TURN SIGNAL"  (or "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" ) plate next to a doghouse assembly–I can only assume because of Pennsylvania's long history of not using red arrows and to avoid confusion as to the purpose of that signal assembly.

But I don't think I would take a green ball with a "RIGHT TURN SIGNAL"  plate to mean that the move is protected. I'd treat it like any other green ball–just with the understanding that it applies to the right turn lane only.

[freebrickproductions]

I know I've seen signs at several intersections around Alabama (usually on old 4-way signals) that say either "STOP then turn right on red" or "Right Turn on Red after stop", so it's probably been legal here after a while. However, all of the right turn signals with red arrows I've seen here in Alabama have had a "Right Turn on Red Arrow after Stop", or something along the lines of that, so it seems to be illegal unless permitted here for red arrows.

[jakeroot]

But I don't think I would take a green ball with a "RIGHT TURN SIGNAL"  plate to mean that the move is protected. I'd treat it like any other green ball–just with the understanding that it applies to the right turn lane only.

I was only assuming this, because I was relating it to its left turn equivalent, which has been mostly phased out in this country: a left turn signal (with accompanying sign) with red, amber, and green orbs. When the green orb is lit, in this case, it means "protected left turn", even though a green orb is well understood to mean "yield in every direction except straight".

[Super Mateo]

I've been honked at for the sin of stopping at a red light before turning right.

So have I.  I've also been honked at for choosing not to turn on red; I do not turn on red at red light camera controlled intersections.

[noelbotevera]

PennDOT changed to RTOR in 2009/2010, because I still have a copy of the driver's manual of those years. However, I don't have manuals earlier than that. Also, if memory serves, neighboring states of NJ and NY also have RTOR, but I'll need to check when I go up towards that area sometime later.

[jakeroot]

I've been honked at for the sin of stopping at a red light before turning right.

So have I.  I've also been honked at for choosing not to turn on red; I do not turn on red at red light camera controlled intersections.

Why not? Unless a sign specifically prohibits RTOR, no camera will be taking your photo, so long as you stop first. If it takes a photo, dispute it. No need to be paranoid about it.

[AlexandriaVA]

I don't think the motorist is obliged to make a right-on-red, correct?

Virginia Code § 46.2-835

Notwithstanding the provisions of § 46.2-833, except where signs are placed prohibiting turns on steady red, vehicular traffic facing a steady red signal, after coming to a full stop, may cautiously enter the intersection and make a right turn.

Such turning traffic shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to other traffic using the intersection.

Operative word is "may", as opposed to "shall".

[kphoger]

We've had this discussion before, and I took the same position. Someone at that time pointed out that there are jurisdictions that word the law as 'shall' rather than 'may'. But most do not.