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Unnecessary control cities

Started by dvferyance, June 23, 2016, 08:12:40 PM

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myosh_tino

Quote from: OCGuy81 on July 06, 2016, 11:18:28 AM
I-505 uses Winters (population about 6000) as a control city, where I feel it'd make more sense to simply use San Francisco, as most drivers heading south on I-5 and exiting onto I-505 are SF bound.

Looking at the current signs using GMSV, exit signs for I-505 use both Winters and San Francisco as control cities.  I have no problem with that (although the layout of both the I-505 exit and I-5 pull through signs leave much to be desired... might take this gantry to the redesign thread).
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hobsini2

Quote from: SteveG1988 on July 05, 2016, 02:11:09 PM
For some reason i find signing "Camden" on 295 south in Trenton is a bit of a misnomer. 295 does not actually enter Camden, nor does it enter Trenton. But Trenton makes sense to me, Camden doesn't. I'd sign it as either Delaware, or  Wilmington DE, or Deptford NJ. Switching to the Delaware ones once you get past I76.

I think it depends at which junction though. If you are in the Trenton area, I can see using Camden on an opposing sign that says Philadelphia. But certainly south of I-76 I would use the Delaware Memorial Bridge or Wilmington.
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kphoger

Quote from: US 41 on July 05, 2016, 09:15:55 PM
At the MEX 57 / MEX 40D interchange in Coahuila they use Ramos Arizpe as the control city for southbound 57. What's wrong with using Saltillo or even Matehuala as the control city? I had never even heard of Ramos Arizpe before and it's not even listed in my road atlas.

https://goo.gl/maps/agjdccVdovQ2

Same deal a few hundred feet south on MEX 57.

https://goo.gl/maps/7HK47x2RkJK2


I've driven through that junction eight times (although on 40, not 57), so let me do some explaining.

Until October 2010, that junction did not exist because that toll road did not exist.  The older junction is 4 km down the road at the Libre.  If you notice, signs there do indeed say SALTILLO.  Back before the construction of the Libramiento Norponiente de Saltillo, that was basically the only way to get to Saltillo from where you dropped the pegman.

You might not have heard of Ramos Arizpe and it might not be listed on your atlas (I'm guessing you're looking at a one- or two-page map of the whole country rather than an actual Mexican atlas), but it's a city of 75,000 people and the principal suburb of Saltillo; of the 38 municipios (counties) in Coahuila, Ramos Arizpe is the 8th most populous.  It's certainly a well-known location in that region.

As to why the junction with the newer toll road lists Ramos Arizpe instead of Saltillo, I can only guess.  But I think the most likely explanation is that, continuing straight ahead, the next junction will take you to either Ramos Arizpe or Saltillo.  However, turning at this first junction, it is still possible to reach Saltillo (not signed, but a reasonable way of reaching the southern half of the city) but not Ramos Arizpe.  Or, to put it another way, traffic heading to Ramos Arizpe is unlikely to want to pay a toll in order to go 6 miles out of their way by overshooting their destination and then doubling back, and so they are advised to continue straight instead.

I think the curious thing is not actually that they used Ramos Arizpe instead of Saltillo, but rather why they didn't just use Matehuala instead, which you also suggested in your comment.  That would certainly be the more "normal" Mexican way of doing things.  The above explanation might be the reason, though:  to specifically call out Ramos Arizpe traffic before switching control cities.
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djsekani

Quote from: dfwmapper on June 27, 2016, 08:56:34 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 25, 2016, 10:21:24 PM
I've seen several things over the years referring to "the other Desert Cities" in reference to various other "cities" located in the general region around Indio, so maybe that sign isn't as stupid as it seems to most of us if it's a recognized expression out there?
The region is primarily referred to as the Coachella Valley, or if you're in LA, "the desert". I've never heard the phrase "other desert cities" used in any context that isn't a reference to the signs. In any case, it doesn't start appearing as a control city until the CA 111 exit in Palm Springs, and it comes beneath Indio on the sign, so whatever the "other" cities are, they would have to be beyond Indio.

"Other desert cities" is a reference to the other cities of the Coachella Valley: Cathedral City, Palm Desert, La Quinta, etc. There's only one sign with those words on it and it's at the EB I-10 junction with CA-111 which splits off to head for Palm Springs. The control city for the area is Indio, as marked on that sign as well as all the eastbound on-ramps in the area.

Now if you wanna talk about weird control cities in Southern California, there's "Beach Cities" on WB CA-91, Pasadena on NB I-710 (even though there's an infamous gap in the way), and Los Angeles/Riverside on SB I-215 in San Bernardino for some reason.

Charles2

In Georgia, I-59 SB uses Birmingham.  Once the route crosses into Alabama, ALDOT uses Gadsden.  That one has never made sense.

Revive 755

Quote from: hobsini2 on July 04, 2016, 02:13:10 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 24, 2016, 09:48:31 AM
Where else does it go?  You could use Peoria, but I-180 makes that annoying turn to the east to cross the Illinois River and end in.....Hennepin.
And there are signs on 80 that say use 180 to Peoria. Just saying. Hennepin is fine.

It could be signed 'To [IL 29 shield]/Peoria" as is done for EB I-80 on WB I-88:  Streetview

dfwmapper

Quote from: djsekani on July 09, 2016, 05:08:56 PM
"Other desert cities" is a reference to the other cities of the Coachella Valley: Cathedral City, Palm Desert, La Quinta, etc. There's only one sign with those words on it and it's at the EB I-10 junction with CA-111 which splits off to head for Palm Springs. The control city for the area is Indio, as marked on that sign as well as all the eastbound on-ramps in the area.
Then it ought to be other Desert Cities/Indio, not the other way around. Still dumb. Indio/Phoenix would be what most anyone but Caltrans would use.
QuoteNow if you wanna talk about weird control cities in Southern California, there's "Beach Cities" on WB CA-91, Pasadena on NB I-710 (even though there's an infamous gap in the way), and Los Angeles/Riverside on SB I-215 in San Bernardino for some reason.
Oh yeah, I forgot about Beach Cities, especially with CA 91 having been cut back to end at I-105.

Where is LA/Riverside used as a control city on SB I-215? I don't think I've ever seen LA, only Riverside, but I can't say I've ever spent much time on I-215 except for the overlap with CA 60.

Interstate Trav

Quote from: djsekani on July 09, 2016, 05:08:56 PM
Quote from: dfwmapper on June 27, 2016, 08:56:34 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 25, 2016, 10:21:24 PM
I've seen several things over the years referring to "the other Desert Cities" in reference to various other "cities" located in the general region around Indio, so maybe that sign isn't as stupid as it seems to most of us if it's a recognized expression out there?
The region is primarily referred to as the Coachella Valley, or if you're in LA, "the desert". I've never heard the phrase "other desert cities" used in any context that isn't a reference to the signs. In any case, it doesn't start appearing as a control city until the CA 111 exit in Palm Springs, and it comes beneath Indio on the sign, so whatever the "other" cities are, they would have to be beyond Indio.

"Other desert cities" is a reference to the other cities of the Coachella Valley: Cathedral City, Palm Desert, La Quinta, etc. There's only one sign with those words on it and it's at the EB I-10 junction with CA-111 which splits off to head for Palm Springs. The control city for the area is Indio, as marked on that sign as well as all the eastbound on-ramps in the area.

Now if you wanna talk about weird control cities in Southern California, there's "Beach Cities" on WB CA-91, Pasadena on NB I-710 (even though there's an infamous gap in the way), and Los Angeles/Riverside on SB I-215 in San Bernardino for some reason.

Finally someone isn't putting down the "Other Desert Cities" Sign.  I think it refers to the Coachella Valley Cities and might be going back to when US 99 ran along the now I-10, so it includes Imperial Valley, El Centro ect. 

I think they sign 215 South for Los Angeles and Riverside because they do it along 210 West or they did along 30 west for 215 South partially for Big Bear Traffic I'm guessing, and also the San Bernardino Freeway transfers from the 215 to the 10.  That's my guess anyways.

capt.ron

The US 67-167 freeway in central Arkansas lists St. Louis as a control city, and does so on several signs between Jacksonville and Searcy. Why St. Louis when there is Newport and Walnut Ridge (that section to be opened up soon)? I can see St Louis being mentioned ONCE but only once (listed 2-3 times). The control cities depicted on that freeway leave a lot to be desired. Oh and the 4 lane section stops LONG before reaching St. Louis.

roadman65

Why is Fort Smith, AR used in Missouri for I-49 South of Joplin when the cities of NW Arkansas now are big enough to warrant either Bentonville, Fayetteville, or one of the other big ones near there?

Futhermore, Arkansas does not use "Joplin" from Fort Smith and actually use one of the big NW Arkansas cities.
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djsekani

#60
Quote from: dfwmapper on July 10, 2016, 12:27:13 AM

Where is LA/Riverside used as a control city on SB I-215? I don't think I've ever seen LA, only Riverside, but I can't say I've ever spent much time on I-215 except for the overlap with CA 60.

Here's a street view from the westbound 210. This one is just really weird to me since you can get to Los Angeles going straight ahead on the 210, but I guess they want everyone to take the 215 south to the 10 or 60 freeways. Also this is the only place on the 215 where I've seen Los Angeles as a control city.

dvferyance

I went to St Louis last weekend and noticed the control city often on I-55 SB south of Springfield was East St Louis. This is probably the most unnecessary control city of all.

djsekani

The control city on EB I-96 in Detroit is "Bridge to Canada." Technically it does end at the Ambassador Bridge going into Windsor, Ontario while cosigned with I-75.

TheStranger

Quote from: djsekani on July 12, 2016, 02:52:05 AM
Quote from: dfwmapper on July 10, 2016, 12:27:13 AM

Where is LA/Riverside used as a control city on SB I-215? I don't think I've ever seen LA, only Riverside, but I can't say I've ever spent much time on I-215 except for the overlap with CA 60.

Here's a street view from the westbound 210. This one is just really weird to me since you can get to Los Angeles going straight ahead on the 210, but I guess they want everyone to take the 215 south to the 10 or 60 freeways. Also this is the only place on the 215 where I've seen Los Angeles as a control city.

My guess is that this is a relic from when the Route 30 freeway (now part of the completed 210) only extended from just west of 215 to Redlands; in that case, the nearest east-west route at the time back to LA was indeed 215 south to 10 west.  This was true even ca. 2001:
https://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/us_2001/california_ref_2001.pdf

Chris Sampang

TR69

Not sure if this really counts as "unnecessary" but I've always found it interesting that Peoria is used as the WB control city on I-74 in Indiana. Personally, I love seeing all the Peorias on the local road BGS's since I was born and raised there. But, really, it seems Indiana would prefer to use in-state Crawfordsville or even Danville IL (twice the size of Crawfordsville). And, to make it even more intriguing, Illinois, Peoria's own state, uses Danville, Champaign, and Bloomington as control cities rather than Peoria (on local roads).

Memphis is an interesting control city for SB I-57 in Illinois, but I guess it makes more sense than Sikeston or Cairo (I mean for the BGS's on intersecting interstates, not the BGSs on smaller highways that do indeed use smaller local towns such as Cairo).

On a semi-related note, growing up in Illinois I always thought it was "unecessary" to include both East St Louis and St Louis on mileage signs on SB I-55. (Yes, I know, those aren't the same as control cities, but it certainly seems to fit the "unnecessary" aspect of this discussion.)


hbelkins

Peoria always puzzled me, as well, because there are several other decent-sized burgs in Illinois along I-74 that serve as major interstate junctions. I mean, if West Virginia can use Washington, Pa. instead of Pittsburgh, then surely Indiana can use something closer than Peoria.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

dvferyance

#66
Quote from: hbelkins on July 13, 2016, 03:22:27 PM
Peoria always puzzled me, as well, because there are several other decent-sized burgs in Illinois along I-74 that serve as major interstate junctions. I mean, if West Virginia can use Washington, Pa. instead of Pittsburgh, then surely Indiana can use something closer than Peoria.
Danville is too small but I would be just fine if they used Champaign though I can see why they use Peoria something more significant. Keep in mind though IDOT uses Indianapolis in the EB direction at Peoria so I guess it keeps it consistent.

hobsini2

Quote from: dvferyance on July 13, 2016, 03:57:17 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 13, 2016, 03:22:27 PM
Peoria always puzzled me, as well, because there are several other decent-sized burgs in Illinois along I-74 that serve as major interstate junctions. I mean, if West Virginia can use Washington, Pa. instead of Pittsburgh, then surely Indiana can use something closer than Peoria.
Danville is too small but I would be just fine if they used Champaign though I can see why they use Peoria something more significant. Keep in mind though IDOT uses Indianapolis in the EB direction at Peoria so I guess it keeps it consistent.
It could use Champaign. It couldn't use Bloomington or Danville because Indiana has cities called that.
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Brandon

Quote from: dvferyance on July 12, 2016, 05:53:50 PM
I went to St Louis last weekend and noticed the control city often on I-55 SB south of Springfield was East St Louis. This is probably the most unnecessary control city of all.

It's a secondary control.  IDOT (as I've said many, many times before) uses secondary and primary controls.  St Louis is the primary control from Chicago southward.  The secondary controls are Joliet, Bloomington, Springfield, and East St Louis.
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hbelkins

Quote from: hobsini2 on July 14, 2016, 09:06:09 PM
It could use Champaign. It couldn't use Bloomington or Danville because Indiana has cities called that.

Danville wouldn't make any sense, as it's not a major interstate junction. But they could always tack the state name on the end, like Tennessee does for Jackson, Miss., in the Memphis area, to distinguish it from Jackson, Tenn.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

US 41

Quote from: Brandon on July 14, 2016, 10:05:58 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on July 12, 2016, 05:53:50 PM
I went to St Louis last weekend and noticed the control city often on I-55 SB south of Springfield was East St Louis. This is probably the most unnecessary control city of all.

It's a secondary control.  IDOT (as I've said many, many times before) uses secondary and primary controls.  St Louis is the primary control from Chicago southward.  The secondary controls are Joliet, Bloomington, Springfield, and East St Louis.

They do the same thing on I-70 in Illinois. Indianapolis and St Louis are the primary controls, while Terre Haute, Effingham, and E. St. Louis are the secondary control cities. On I-70 between Indianapolis and the IL state line, Indianapolis and St Louis are the only two cites ever mentioned as control cities. Illinois does a better job of advertising Terre Haute than Indiana does which is sad in my opinion.
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Quote from: dvferyance on July 05, 2016, 04:51:18 PM
Quote from: opspe on July 02, 2016, 11:21:10 PM
I, for one, have never figured out why I-84 westbound from Portland uses Ontario as a far-off control city (after more reasonable ones like The Dalles and Pendleton).  Boise's another 50 miles, sure, but it's also 20 times bigger, not to mention a state capital, and a lot of the long haul traffic ends up there.  Or Salt Lake, but that's unreasonably far.

Another one that irks me is I-5 southbound from Portland uses Salem as a control city, rather than Eugene, but I-5 northbound from Eugene skips Salem and uses Portland.  I can understand why you'd use Salem or why you'd skip it, but not why you'd do both.
That must have changed because when I was there in 2007 the control city was The Dalles. I have no problem with using Salem after all it's the state capitol. I believe Portland is used as the NB control city as far south as Redding CA while Oregon never uses that. Only Yreka is used in Oregon just before California which doesn't make sense. I would use Redding after Medford and not use Ashland either. I would probably not use Roseburg as well.

How about Oregon using Hermiston and Umatilla as the control cities on I-82 instead of the Tri-Cities and Seattle?

Quillz

I've always been a bit baffled why I-405 NB uses "Sacramento" as a control city. I mean, it makes sense in that I-405 flows onto I-5, which in turn goes to Sacramento, but it seems like a city actually reachable via the 405 would make more sense. Perhaps San Fernando, Sylmar? (And of course, the entire 405 is also the "San Diego Freeway," another odd choice). I believe the SB control city in the valley is Santa Monica, a much better choice than Sacramento.

US-395 still has "San Diego" as a control city in the High Desert area, but this is a holdover from the days when it did reach the city.

kphoger

Quote from: hbelkins on July 14, 2016, 10:41:07 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 14, 2016, 09:06:09 PM
It could use Champaign. It couldn't use Bloomington or Danville because Indiana has cities called that.

Danville wouldn't make any sense, as it's not a major interstate junction. But they could always tack the state name on the end, like Tennessee does for Jackson, Miss., in the Memphis area, to distinguish it from Jackson, Tenn.

Or as Illinois itself does for Nashville IL.
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Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

slorydn1

Quote from: kphoger on July 15, 2016, 01:50:25 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 14, 2016, 10:41:07 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 14, 2016, 09:06:09 PM
It could use Champaign. It couldn't use Bloomington or Danville because Indiana has cities called that.

Danville wouldn't make any sense, as it's not a major interstate junction. But they could always tack the state name on the end, like Tennessee does for Jackson, Miss., in the Memphis area, to distinguish it from Jackson, Tenn.

Or as Illinois itself does for Nashville IL.

Or as Virginia does for Rocky Mount, NC on I-95.
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