East Coast states want to tax drivers’ travel, not their gas

Started by cpzilliacus, June 25, 2016, 10:24:06 PM

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froggie

Quote from: US 41Also I don't believe that the mileage tax will substitute the gas tax.

In the mileage tax testing that has gone on in Oregon, testers get reimbursed for the gas tax they pay.

Quote from: cpzilliacus(3) Along with the transit unions, small and smaller municipalities would love this as a way to collect a lot of money from drivers passing through, even if those drivers never drive one milimeter on streets or roads maintained by that municipality.

This will depend on the state.  In several states, the local municipality still maintains the main highway through the town/municipality.  I know this is the case in several locations in Vermont, New York, Mississippi, and Wisconsin.


Privacy and "tax" concerns aside, a mileage tax would be the most direct way to correlate driving with the cost of maintaining the roads.  You drive a lot?  You'll pay a lot.  Drive only a few miles (as jeff mentions), you won't pay much.  While we do have the gas tax, it is an increasingly imperfect proxy to gauge travel distance for reasons kalvado mentioned.

As for being "tracked"....if you don't like it, I'd suggest getting rid of any GPS units, smart phones, or tablets you may have...


US 41

Look a mileage tax is not going to happen for a long long time. States would lose money on it if they replaced the gas tax with the mileage tax. Look at all the money these states get in the gas tax from out of state drivers.

And yes I firmly believe that the mileage tax would be an additional tax based on what I just wrote above. That's the only way it would actually work.

Another point I'd like to make is that Canadian and Mexican drivers would be able to use our roads tax free if there was no longer a gas tax.

Lastly your 4 cylinder cars are not tearing up the highways. The 60 ton semi trucks are. If anything is going to be done raise the gas tax a few cents and be done with it. It's really is that simple.
Visited States and Provinces:
USA (48)= All of Lower 48
Canada (5)= NB, NS, ON, PEI, QC
Mexico (9)= BCN, BCS, CHIH, COAH, DGO, NL, SON, SIN, TAM

jeffandnicole

Quote from: bzakharin on June 27, 2016, 09:22:47 AM
As far as location tracking, why can't it be like the income tax? You self-report how much you drive in each state. They can audit you occasionally, and get a reasonable estimate of how often you visit each state and for how long.

We have that now. Some states have a line item for Use Tax, when purchases are made outside the state to be brought home and used in their home state. 

As you can figure, that line isn't filled in that often. 

I don't disagree with the self-reporting...you can easily fill in odometer readings from your car.  But it can get dicey.  No one's going to remember every state they visited if they did a lot of traveling, and I'd bet people would default their miles to a state with a lower tax rate.

It can also mean a very hefty tax bill.  Taking the average state and fed gasoline taxes at 48 cents, if that was used to determine someone's tax bill at the end of the year, a motorist driving 12,000 miles a year would owe a very hefty $5,760...definitely a tax bill they are not going to be prepared to pay.  They can take additional deductions out of their paychecks every week, but we're just circling around to paying it on a regular basis anyway...which they do today at the pump.

RobbieL2415

I developed a relatively loose concept for a mileage-based tax last summer.  It would work in a similar manner to how emissions tests are conducted.  Every other year, the taxpayer receives a letter in the mail notifying them that their mileage tax is due.  A form is included with basic information (name, address, vehicle tax is due upon, that vehicle's VIN, etc) as well as the previous collection year's odometer reading.  Then you go to a certified emissions inspection station to have your odometer read for that.  The technician writes the reading down on the form, subtracts it from the previous collection year, and the result is the number of miles eligible to be taxed.  He signs the form, stamps it or notarizes it in some way, and the taxpayer includes that form in their state income tax form for that year (in NH or other states with no income tax, the tax is mailed directly to the DMV).  It is then up to the taxpayer to claim exemptions from whatever miles were driven out-of-state, for business, or for other reasons a state could dictate be exempt from the mileage tax.

There would be no need for GPS tracking with this system, but it puts a burden of trust on the taxpayers not to lie about their exempted miles.

kalvado

Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 27, 2016, 10:42:30 AM
I developed a relatively loose concept for a mileage-based tax last summer.  It would work in a similar manner to how emissions tests are conducted.  Every other year, the taxpayer receives a letter in the mail notifying them that their mileage tax is due.  A form is included with basic information (name, address, vehicle tax is due upon, that vehicle's VIN, etc) as well as the previous collection year's odometer reading.  Then you go to a certified emissions inspection station to have your odometer read for that.  The technician writes the reading down on the form, subtracts it from the previous collection year, and the result is the number of miles eligible to be taxed.  He signs the form, stamps it or notarizes it in some way, and the taxpayer includes that form in their state income tax form for that year (in NH or other states with no income tax, the tax is mailed directly to the DMV).  It is then up to the taxpayer to claim exemptions from whatever miles were driven out-of-state, for business, or for other reasons a state could dictate be exempt from the mileage tax.

There would be no need for GPS tracking with this system, but it puts a burden of trust on the taxpayers not to lie about their exempted miles.

It promotes odometer fraud. And a sticker shock for annual tax is definitely there: at 2 cents/mile and 12000 miles that would be $240 due, and that is on a lower end of spectrum.
Out of state cars is another can of worms.

kalvado

Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 27, 2016, 10:41:19 AM

It can also mean a very hefty tax bill.  Taking the average state and fed gasoline taxes at 48 cents, if that was used to determine someone's tax bill at the end of the year, a motorist driving 12,000 miles a year would owe a very hefty $5,760...definitely a tax bill they are not going to be prepared to pay.  They can take additional deductions out of their paychecks every week, but we're just circling around to paying it on a regular basis anyway...which they do today at the pump.
Your math is off - $0.48 tax per gallon at 24 MPG (to make calculations easier) is 2 cents a mile, $2 per 100 miles, or $20 per 1000 miles.

bzakharin

Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 27, 2016, 10:42:30 AM
I developed a relatively loose concept for a mileage-based tax last summer.  It would work in a similar manner to how emissions tests are conducted.  Every other year, the taxpayer receives a letter in the mail notifying them that their mileage tax is due.  A form is included with basic information (name, address, vehicle tax is due upon, that vehicle's VIN, etc) as well as the previous collection year's odometer reading.  Then you go to a certified emissions inspection station to have your odometer read for that.  The technician writes the reading down on the form, subtracts it from the previous collection year, and the result is the number of miles eligible to be taxed.  He signs the form, stamps it or notarizes it in some way, and the taxpayer includes that form in their state income tax form for that year (in NH or other states with no income tax, the tax is mailed directly to the DMV).  It is then up to the taxpayer to claim exemptions from whatever miles were driven out-of-state, for business, or for other reasons a state could dictate be exempt from the mileage tax.

There would be no need for GPS tracking with this system, but it puts a burden of trust on the taxpayers not to lie about their exempted miles.
How does this handle paying the tax to other states you've driven in? Does the state make these payments on your behalf based on your "exemptions"? What about if you live in a state that doesn't have a mileage tax, but drive in a state that does?

US 81

Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 27, 2016, 10:42:30 AM
I developed a relatively loose concept for a mileage-based tax last summer.  It would work in a similar manner to how emissions tests are conducted.  Every other year, the taxpayer receives a letter in the mail notifying them that their mileage tax is due.  A form is included with basic information (name, address, vehicle tax is due upon, that vehicle's VIN, etc) as well as the previous collection year's odometer reading.  Then you go to a certified emissions inspection station to have your odometer read for that.  The technician writes the reading down on the form, subtracts it from the previous collection year, and the result is the number of miles eligible to be taxed.  He signs the form, stamps it or notarizes it in some way, and the taxpayer includes that form in their state income tax form for that year (in NH or other states with no income tax, the tax is mailed directly to the DMV).  It is then up to the taxpayer to claim exemptions from whatever miles were driven out-of-state, for business, or for other reasons a state could dictate be exempt from the mileage tax.

There would be no need for GPS tracking with this system, but it puts a burden of trust on the taxpayers not to lie about their exempted miles.

Are there still states that don't require annual vehicle inspections? (Kentucky, maybe?)
Mileage is always recorded as an element of annual vehicle inspection in Texas. Most states could incorporate an official mileage reading by some sort of state certified mechanic / inspector as a part of the annual vehicle inspection/emissions testing, I should think. Of course, they would charge us for this new service, but I still think it could work.

kalvado

Quote from: US 81 on June 27, 2016, 11:35:14 AM

Are there still states that don't require annual vehicle inspections? (Kentucky, maybe?)
Mileage is always recorded as an element of annual vehicle inspection in Texas. Most states could incorporate an official mileage reading by some sort of state certified mechanic / inspector as a part of the annual vehicle inspection/emissions testing, I should think. Of course, they would charge us for this new service, but I still think it could work.
According to Wiki, vehicle inspection in one way or the other is less than common requirement in US
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_inspection_in_the_United_States

Brandon

Quote from: US 81 on June 27, 2016, 11:35:14 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 27, 2016, 10:42:30 AM
I developed a relatively loose concept for a mileage-based tax last summer.  It would work in a similar manner to how emissions tests are conducted.  Every other year, the taxpayer receives a letter in the mail notifying them that their mileage tax is due.  A form is included with basic information (name, address, vehicle tax is due upon, that vehicle's VIN, etc) as well as the previous collection year's odometer reading.  Then you go to a certified emissions inspection station to have your odometer read for that.  The technician writes the reading down on the form, subtracts it from the previous collection year, and the result is the number of miles eligible to be taxed.  He signs the form, stamps it or notarizes it in some way, and the taxpayer includes that form in their state income tax form for that year (in NH or other states with no income tax, the tax is mailed directly to the DMV).  It is then up to the taxpayer to claim exemptions from whatever miles were driven out-of-state, for business, or for other reasons a state could dictate be exempt from the mileage tax.

There would be no need for GPS tracking with this system, but it puts a burden of trust on the taxpayers not to lie about their exempted miles.

Are there still states that don't require annual vehicle inspections? (Kentucky, maybe?)

A lot of states don't, with a few exceptions for emissions.  For example, Illinois does not, with the exception of emissions every two years on cars at least five years old in eight counties (Cook, DuPage, Kane, Lake, McHenry, Will, Madison, and St. Clair).
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

jeffandnicole

Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2016, 11:23:05 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 27, 2016, 10:41:19 AM

It can also mean a very hefty tax bill.  Taking the average state and fed gasoline taxes at 48 cents, if that was used to determine someone's tax bill at the end of the year, a motorist driving 12,000 miles a year would owe a very hefty $5,760...definitely a tax bill they are not going to be prepared to pay.  They can take additional deductions out of their paychecks every week, but we're just circling around to paying it on a regular basis anyway...which they do today at the pump.
Your math is off - $0.48 tax per gallon at 24 MPG (to make calculations easier) is 2 cents a mile, $2 per 100 miles, or $20 per 1000 miles.

Hmmmph...so you're right!  Do'h!!!

US 41

Quote from: Brandon on June 27, 2016, 11:50:25 AM
Quote from: US 81 on June 27, 2016, 11:35:14 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 27, 2016, 10:42:30 AM
I developed a relatively loose concept for a mileage-based tax last summer.  It would work in a similar manner to how emissions tests are conducted.  Every other year, the taxpayer receives a letter in the mail notifying them that their mileage tax is due.  A form is included with basic information (name, address, vehicle tax is due upon, that vehicle's VIN, etc) as well as the previous collection year's odometer reading.  Then you go to a certified emissions inspection station to have your odometer read for that.  The technician writes the reading down on the form, subtracts it from the previous collection year, and the result is the number of miles eligible to be taxed.  He signs the form, stamps it or notarizes it in some way, and the taxpayer includes that form in their state income tax form for that year (in NH or other states with no income tax, the tax is mailed directly to the DMV).  It is then up to the taxpayer to claim exemptions from whatever miles were driven out-of-state, for business, or for other reasons a state could dictate be exempt from the mileage tax.

There would be no need for GPS tracking with this system, but it puts a burden of trust on the taxpayers not to lie about their exempted miles.

Are there still states that don't require annual vehicle inspections? (Kentucky, maybe?)

A lot of states don't, with a few exceptions for emissions.  For example, Illinois does not, with the exception of emissions every two years on cars at least five years old in eight counties (Cook, DuPage, Kane, Lake, McHenry, Will, Madison, and St. Clair).

Indiana does not. How does an emissions test even work?
Visited States and Provinces:
USA (48)= All of Lower 48
Canada (5)= NB, NS, ON, PEI, QC
Mexico (9)= BCN, BCS, CHIH, COAH, DGO, NL, SON, SIN, TAM

Brandon

Quote from: US 41 on June 27, 2016, 12:58:43 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 27, 2016, 11:50:25 AM
Quote from: US 81 on June 27, 2016, 11:35:14 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 27, 2016, 10:42:30 AM
I developed a relatively loose concept for a mileage-based tax last summer.  It would work in a similar manner to how emissions tests are conducted.  Every other year, the taxpayer receives a letter in the mail notifying them that their mileage tax is due.  A form is included with basic information (name, address, vehicle tax is due upon, that vehicle's VIN, etc) as well as the previous collection year's odometer reading.  Then you go to a certified emissions inspection station to have your odometer read for that.  The technician writes the reading down on the form, subtracts it from the previous collection year, and the result is the number of miles eligible to be taxed.  He signs the form, stamps it or notarizes it in some way, and the taxpayer includes that form in their state income tax form for that year (in NH or other states with no income tax, the tax is mailed directly to the DMV).  It is then up to the taxpayer to claim exemptions from whatever miles were driven out-of-state, for business, or for other reasons a state could dictate be exempt from the mileage tax.

There would be no need for GPS tracking with this system, but it puts a burden of trust on the taxpayers not to lie about their exempted miles.

Are there still states that don't require annual vehicle inspections? (Kentucky, maybe?)

A lot of states don't, with a few exceptions for emissions.  For example, Illinois does not, with the exception of emissions every two years on cars at least five years old in eight counties (Cook, DuPage, Kane, Lake, McHenry, Will, Madison, and St. Clair).

Indiana does not. How does an emissions test even work?

Actually, Indiana does have emission tests in Lake and Porter Counties.
https://secure.in.gov/bmv/2655.htm

Here's the Illinois program, run by the IEPA:
http://www.epa.illinois.gov/topics/air-quality/mobile-sources/vehicle-emissions-testing/index
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

RobbieL2415

Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2016, 11:19:59 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 27, 2016, 10:42:30 AM
I developed a relatively loose concept for a mileage-based tax last summer.  It would work in a similar manner to how emissions tests are conducted.  Every other year, the taxpayer receives a letter in the mail notifying them that their mileage tax is due.  A form is included with basic information (name, address, vehicle tax is due upon, that vehicle's VIN, etc) as well as the previous collection year's odometer reading.  Then you go to a certified emissions inspection station to have your odometer read for that.  The technician writes the reading down on the form, subtracts it from the previous collection year, and the result is the number of miles eligible to be taxed.  He signs the form, stamps it or notarizes it in some way, and the taxpayer includes that form in their state income tax form for that year (in NH or other states with no income tax, the tax is mailed directly to the DMV).  It is then up to the taxpayer to claim exemptions from whatever miles were driven out-of-state, for business, or for other reasons a state could dictate be exempt from the mileage tax.

There would be no need for GPS tracking with this system, but it puts a burden of trust on the taxpayers not to lie about their exempted miles.

It promotes odometer fraud. And a sticker shock for annual tax is definitely there: at 2 cents/mile and 12000 miles that would be $240 due, and that is on a lower end of spectrum.
Out of state cars is another can of worms.
I agree, there would be a risk of odometer fraud, mainly by the person "reading the meter".  Odometer tampering on modern cars is difficult to pull off.

Only in-state vehicles would be required to pay the tax.  Revenue from out-of-staters could be generated from tolls.

kalvado

Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 27, 2016, 01:34:05 PM

I agree, there would be a risk of odometer fraud, mainly by the person "reading the meter".  Odometer tampering on modern cars is difficult to pull off.

Only in-state vehicles would be required to pay the tax.  Revenue from out-of-staters could be generated from tolls.

How do you enforce out-of-state tolls? For example, I have a friend who was on assignment in NYS while maintaining Oregon legal residence. For 3 or 4 years, don't remember for sure.
What I can see is a mileage tax with credit for taxes on in-state gas purchases. Driving out of state - other state still gets the gas tax. THere will be some double-dipping for longer haul, and that is not good.
But how to implement that... I am not sure there is a simple way. 

Brandon

Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 27, 2016, 01:34:05 PM
Only in-state vehicles would be required to pay the tax.  Revenue from out-of-staters could be generated from tolls.

At that point you might as well have an I-Pass (EZ Pass) type system for all vehicles, in-state and out-of-state.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

Sam

Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2016, 01:56:28 PM

How do you enforce out-of-state tolls? For example, I have a friend who was on assignment in NYS while maintaining Oregon legal residence. For 3 or 4 years, don't remember for sure.
What I can see is a mileage tax with credit for taxes on in-state gas purchases. Driving out of state - other state still gets the gas tax. THere will be some double-dipping for longer haul, and that is not good.
But how to implement that... I am not sure there is a simple way.

New York State already requires residents to pay New York sales tax on items purchased and taxed in another state, so it's probably only a matter of time before NY will require us to pay NY fuel tax on gas bought in another state.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Sam on June 27, 2016, 02:50:42 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2016, 01:56:28 PM

How do you enforce out-of-state tolls? For example, I have a friend who was on assignment in NYS while maintaining Oregon legal residence. For 3 or 4 years, don't remember for sure.
What I can see is a mileage tax with credit for taxes on in-state gas purchases. Driving out of state - other state still gets the gas tax. THere will be some double-dipping for longer haul, and that is not good.
But how to implement that... I am not sure there is a simple way.

New York State already requires residents to pay New York sales tax on items purchased and taxed in another state, so it's probably only a matter of time before NY will require us to pay NY fuel tax on gas bought in another state.

But how many actually do?  I'd bet an extremely small percentage actually pay up.

noelbotevera

Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 27, 2016, 01:34:05 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2016, 11:19:59 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 27, 2016, 10:42:30 AM
I developed a relatively loose concept for a mileage-based tax last summer.  It would work in a similar manner to how emissions tests are conducted.  Every other year, the taxpayer receives a letter in the mail notifying them that their mileage tax is due.  A form is included with basic information (name, address, vehicle tax is due upon, that vehicle's VIN, etc) as well as the previous collection year's odometer reading.  Then you go to a certified emissions inspection station to have your odometer read for that.  The technician writes the reading down on the form, subtracts it from the previous collection year, and the result is the number of miles eligible to be taxed.  He signs the form, stamps it or notarizes it in some way, and the taxpayer includes that form in their state income tax form for that year (in NH or other states with no income tax, the tax is mailed directly to the DMV).  It is then up to the taxpayer to claim exemptions from whatever miles were driven out-of-state, for business, or for other reasons a state could dictate be exempt from the mileage tax.

There would be no need for GPS tracking with this system, but it puts a burden of trust on the taxpayers not to lie about their exempted miles.

It promotes odometer fraud. And a sticker shock for annual tax is definitely there: at 2 cents/mile and 12000 miles that would be $240 due, and that is on a lower end of spectrum.
Out of state cars is another can of worms.
I agree, there would be a risk of odometer fraud, mainly by the person "reading the meter".  Odometer tampering on modern cars is difficult to pull off.

Only in-state vehicles would be required to pay the tax.  Revenue from out-of-staters could be generated from tolls.
In PA (and maybe other states do this), whenever a car (no matter how old) enters a mechanic's shop, they will perform the service you need and will then write the mileage on your odometer onto a sticker placed on your windshield. That would be the mileage at the time of service, and this also happens at each oil change.

States that don't have a mileage tax could still write the mileage down. In the case that out-of-state people drive in a state with a mileage tax, they would be taxed for the number of miles they traverse in a state, but depending on population density and land area (of said state), they would be taxed less if they have driven a long distance through sparsely populated states (and large), such as Montana, but taxed equal to/more if they have passed through a smaller state, such as Delaware, or has driven around a large city while traveling in a state. In cases such as Texas, it would depend if they would have a smaller or larger tax to pay at the end of their travels due to several large metropolitan areas.

US 41

Quote from: Brandon on June 27, 2016, 01:03:45 PM
Quote from: US 41 on June 27, 2016, 12:58:43 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 27, 2016, 11:50:25 AM
Quote from: US 81 on June 27, 2016, 11:35:14 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 27, 2016, 10:42:30 AM
I developed a relatively loose concept for a mileage-based tax last summer.  It would work in a similar manner to how emissions tests are conducted.  Every other year, the taxpayer receives a letter in the mail notifying them that their mileage tax is due.  A form is included with basic information (name, address, vehicle tax is due upon, that vehicle's VIN, etc) as well as the previous collection year's odometer reading.  Then you go to a certified emissions inspection station to have your odometer read for that.  The technician writes the reading down on the form, subtracts it from the previous collection year, and the result is the number of miles eligible to be taxed.  He signs the form, stamps it or notarizes it in some way, and the taxpayer includes that form in their state income tax form for that year (in NH or other states with no income tax, the tax is mailed directly to the DMV).  It is then up to the taxpayer to claim exemptions from whatever miles were driven out-of-state, for business, or for other reasons a state could dictate be exempt from the mileage tax.

There would be no need for GPS tracking with this system, but it puts a burden of trust on the taxpayers not to lie about their exempted miles.

Are there still states that don't require annual vehicle inspections? (Kentucky, maybe?)

A lot of states don't, with a few exceptions for emissions.  For example, Illinois does not, with the exception of emissions every two years on cars at least five years old in eight counties (Cook, DuPage, Kane, Lake, McHenry, Will, Madison, and St. Clair).

Indiana does not. How does an emissions test even work?

Actually, Indiana does have emission tests in Lake and Porter Counties.
https://secure.in.gov/bmv/2655.htm

Here's the Illinois program, run by the IEPA:
http://www.epa.illinois.gov/topics/air-quality/mobile-sources/vehicle-emissions-testing/index

I looked at Indiana's program. I guess it isn't that bad since it is free, but I'd still oppose it in my area because it would be a little inconvenient and in my opinion unnecessary. Then again I'm not a big "green" person and I do think global warming is a fraud and not real. 

Quote from: noelbotevera on June 27, 2016, 03:29:32 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 27, 2016, 01:34:05 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2016, 11:19:59 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 27, 2016, 10:42:30 AM
I developed a relatively loose concept for a mileage-based tax last summer.  It would work in a similar manner to how emissions tests are conducted.  Every other year, the taxpayer receives a letter in the mail notifying them that their mileage tax is due.  A form is included with basic information (name, address, vehicle tax is due upon, that vehicle's VIN, etc) as well as the previous collection year's odometer reading.  Then you go to a certified emissions inspection station to have your odometer read for that.  The technician writes the reading down on the form, subtracts it from the previous collection year, and the result is the number of miles eligible to be taxed.  He signs the form, stamps it or notarizes it in some way, and the taxpayer includes that form in their state income tax form for that year (in NH or other states with no income tax, the tax is mailed directly to the DMV).  It is then up to the taxpayer to claim exemptions from whatever miles were driven out-of-state, for business, or for other reasons a state could dictate be exempt from the mileage tax.

There would be no need for GPS tracking with this system, but it puts a burden of trust on the taxpayers not to lie about their exempted miles.

It promotes odometer fraud. And a sticker shock for annual tax is definitely there: at 2 cents/mile and 12000 miles that would be $240 due, and that is on a lower end of spectrum.
Out of state cars is another can of worms.
I agree, there would be a risk of odometer fraud, mainly by the person "reading the meter".  Odometer tampering on modern cars is difficult to pull off.

Only in-state vehicles would be required to pay the tax.  Revenue from out-of-staters could be generated from tolls.
In PA (and maybe other states do this), whenever a car (no matter how old) enters a mechanic's shop, they will perform the service you need and will then write the mileage on your odometer onto a sticker placed on your windshield. That would be the mileage at the time of service, and this also happens at each oil change.

States that don't have a mileage tax could still write the mileage down. In the case that out-of-state people drive in a state with a mileage tax, they would be taxed for the number of miles they traverse in a state, but depending on population density and land area (of said state), they would be taxed less if they have driven a long distance through sparsely populated states (and large), such as Montana, but taxed equal to/more if they have passed through a smaller state, such as Delaware, or has driven around a large city while traveling in a state. In cases such as Texas, it would depend if they would have a smaller or larger tax to pay at the end of their travels due to several large metropolitan areas.

I love all the confusion. Why can't we just all admit that a mileage tax is very bad idea? The gas tax works great, just raise it a few cents and use the money for road maintenance only.
Visited States and Provinces:
USA (48)= All of Lower 48
Canada (5)= NB, NS, ON, PEI, QC
Mexico (9)= BCN, BCS, CHIH, COAH, DGO, NL, SON, SIN, TAM

1995hoo

Quote from: Sam on June 27, 2016, 02:50:42 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 27, 2016, 01:56:28 PM

How do you enforce out-of-state tolls? For example, I have a friend who was on assignment in NYS while maintaining Oregon legal residence. For 3 or 4 years, don't remember for sure.
What I can see is a mileage tax with credit for taxes on in-state gas purchases. Driving out of state - other state still gets the gas tax. THere will be some double-dipping for longer haul, and that is not good.
But how to implement that... I am not sure there is a simple way.

New York State already requires residents to pay New York sales tax on items purchased and taxed in another state, so it's probably only a matter of time before NY will require us to pay NY fuel tax on gas bought in another state.

So-called "use taxes" are pretty common, though usually they purport to require you to pay tax on (1) an item you bought out-of-state without paying sales tax or (2) an item you ordered and on which you weren't charged sales tax. As has been noted, very few people pay these. I've often wondered about the constitutionality of category (1) because it seems to me that if, say, you go to Delaware to buy clothes because they have no sales tax, that is a matter between you and Delaware and your home state has no say in the matter–if they try to tax you, isn't that tantamount to an import duty on something bought in another state?

Regarding the final point "US 41" makes, it's important to recognize the problems the gas tax creates with alternative-fuel vehicles like Teslas. Those vehicles' owners should certainly pay some sort of road maintenance tax.
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"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
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vdeane

I'm not sure how either category is legal.  If I live in NY but buy something from a website based in PA, I fail to see how it is any different than if I drove to PA to buy the product.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

US 41

Quote from: 1995hoo on June 27, 2016, 05:11:23 PM
Regarding the final point "US 41" makes, it's important to recognize the problems the gas tax creates with alternative-fuel vehicles like Teslas. Those vehicles' owners should certainly pay some sort of road maintenance tax.

I totally agree. My resolution would be to charge way more for the registration/plate renewals for those cars that are 100% electric. Anyone that can afford a car like that can definitely pay a lot more for plates.
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1995hoo

Quote from: vdeane on June 27, 2016, 06:30:53 PM
I'm not sure how either category is legal.  If I live in NY but buy something from a website based in PA, I fail to see how it is any different than if I drove to PA to buy the product.

It's not quite that simple because one issue has to do with whether the retailer has any "brick and mortar" facilities in your state. A good example would be a place like Staples since they're so ubiquitous. If you buy from staples.com instead of going to the store, they will almost always charge you sales tax because just about every state with a sales tax will require them to do so, regardless of where the site is hosted or where the warehouse is. The reason, of course, is to prevent the loss of sales tax revenue that would occur if you simply ordered from their site (or catalog, in the pre-Internet days) and didn't have to pay tax.

Other than that issue, though, I generally agree with your comment.




Quote from: US 41 on June 27, 2016, 07:38:01 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 27, 2016, 05:11:23 PM
Regarding the final point "US 41" makes, it's important to recognize the problems the gas tax creates with alternative-fuel vehicles like Teslas. Those vehicles' owners should certainly pay some sort of road maintenance tax.

I totally agree. My resolution would be to charge way more for the registration/plate renewals for those cars that are 100% electric. Anyone that can afford a car like that can definitely pay a lot more for plates.

Virginia tried that a few years ago. Alternative-fuel vehicles, including hybrids, were charged a special tax of something like $64 a year. People squawked and it was repealed. Once again, the politicians did a TERRIBLE job explaining it. Everybody focused on the hybrids and gave into the "I did the right thing by buying a fuel-efficient car" argument instead of focusing on the problem of wear and tear on the roads and the conundrum caused by vehicles that do not run on either gas or diesel. (To be fair, Tesla was mostly unknown and other EVs were very rare, and the number of vehicles that run on CNG or propane was, and is, fairly small, although it's a decent niche market due to the Virginia HOV exemption many people erroneously call the "hybrid exemption.")

Any time they try to reform the tax, people are going to yell about how it's a good thing for people to use less fuel–which, of course, is true. The politicians need to focus on a more reasoned explanation.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

froggie

Quote from: US 41The gas tax works great

If it really worked great, we wouldn't be having this thread/discussion/argument.  And "a few cents" doesn't even come close to meeting the need/demand.  If this nation really wanted to get transportation funding back on its feet via the gas tax, an increase in the order of 20-30 cents/gallon would be necessary.  Yes...that's how bad things have gotten.



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