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Delaware Bay Crossings.

Started by Tonytone, May 02, 2017, 12:17:51 AM

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bzakharin

Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 07, 2017, 03:44:30 PM
I-95 does not run anyplace near the south end of the Garden  State Parkway in Cape May County, N.J. or near a possible Delaware landing (Lewes?) of a crossing of the Delaware Bay. To get there from most places in Maryland (such as the Baltimore region or the Washington suburbs in Maryland or Virginia) would require a significant detour via roads like MD/DEL-404, except for traffic wanting to reach the Jersey  Shore from Delaware and points south and west of Delaware.
if you are coming from DC or points SW, you've got US 301 as a freeway already, so you "only" need a freeway from there to Lewes, DE, or wherever your bridge is going to be. Also, we live in South Jersey, right on the Turnpike and we've taken I-83 to US 30 to US 222 to I-76 from Baltimore at times when I-95 and US 40 and US 1 were hopelessly jammed in MD. That's not any less of a detour than whatever the route to the GSP to the Atlantic City Expressway would be.


Roadgeekteen

Quote from: Tonytone on May 08, 2017, 04:37:07 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 08, 2017, 08:40:22 AM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 10:06:32 PM
I understand that in the sense of someone coming up from Middletown De or baltimore. But what about coming from Lewes Delaware or Florida. you would want to stay on a Through way with the least amount of getting off an exit to get on another highway. Also the GSP (With some upgrades.) would most likely be able to handle a 70 Mph speedlimit cutting the time that it would take to get to NY.

Using the link you provided in your opening comment, anyone coming from Lewes and other Delaware Beach Points would be better served by a bridge replacing the Cape-May Lewis Ferry.  You already have the access on the NJ side...not complete highway access, although building 4 miles of roadway is a heckuva lot easier than 40 miles of roadway.

Im talking about a crossing from Lewes- Cape May. Also that crossing would connect to GSP, and De-1 or R-9 could be extended or converted into limited access highways. The other crossing is less needed but would be a good connection.

If you're coming from Florida, noting that extremely few people are driving such a distance, and wanting to stay on a thru-route, you would stay on 95 anyway!  And if NJ would actually allow a 70 mph limit, the most likely candidate for such a limit is the NJ Turnpike anyway.

Mind you that it doesn't have to just be from Florida, anyone on the east coast below delaware would have an easier travel continuing up Jerseys coast. & yes NJTP should be 70MPH but then how will they get money for people speeding.

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on May 07, 2017, 11:01:28 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 07, 2017, 01:37:18 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 07, 2017, 12:10:47 PM
Once you get to Maryland, it's 3 lanes per direction, with no 3 di counterpart, until you're south of Belair.

I suspect that  many members of this forum will bail-out to U.S. 40 (or even MD-7!), which at least spare us some of interminable delays on the JFK Highway part of I-95 in Maryland.

Or totally shunpike it and take US 1. :)

Rt. 40 is an extremely popular bailout route.  My non-road loving uncle, when he has to travel between VA and NJ around a holiday, will often take that.  He'll say it is crowded, but it moves a bit better than 95 around the holidays.



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froggie

Quote from: bzakharinif you are coming from DC or points SW, you've got US 301 as a freeway already, so you "only" need a freeway from there to Lewes, DE, or wherever your bridge is going to be that chokepoint at the Bay Bridge, and "only" need about 60 miles of freeway to connect from 50 to Lewes.

FTFY, especially considering that Lewes sits south of where 301 splits off 50.

DrSmith

Another issue with this with truck transportation, with trucks banned from the Parkway north of exit 105, which creates a lot of non ideal cutting back across NJ on 195 or Route 18 to the turnpike to head north.

Roadrunner75

I'll pass on this idea.  I commute the Parkway every day in Ocean/Monmouth Counties and I don't need any extra through traffic than the relatively small amount that the ferry currently supports.  As much as I like the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel and wouldn't be a road nut without having some interest in something similar here, I'm happy to keep my old vacation spot Cape May the effective dead-end that it is.

bzakharin

Quote from: froggie on May 08, 2017, 05:55:05 PM
Quote from: bzakharinif you are coming from DC or points SW, you've got US 301 as a freeway already, so you "only" need a freeway from there to Lewes, DE, or wherever your bridge is going to be that chokepoint at the Bay Bridge, and "only" need about 60 miles of freeway to connect from 50 to Lewes.

FTFY, especially considering that Lewes sits south of where 301 splits off 50.

Yeah, I meant 50. And there is a reason I put "only" in quotes. But if that road existed, and barring traffic issues, you'd have a viable route from DC to NYC.

roadman65

Did not we say once in fictional highways to have I-70 go further east than Baltimore using I-695, I-97 (to free that good number) and then across the Bay Bridge on US 50 to follow MD-DE 404?  Sounds a lot like this here.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

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Tonytone

Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 07, 2017, 03:44:30 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 07, 2017, 01:36:58 PM
If Maryland is the chokepoint (as two of you have now suggested), that would speak far more to US 301 improvements (and a Bay Bridge 3rd span) than it would to a minimum-12-mile Delaware Bay water crossing plus approach roadways.  Which completely defeats the OP's purpose for this thread.
If you were going to Ny would you rather take,
I-95 all the way up?
Not currently possible.  When it becomes possible it will not be my preferred route.

Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
I-95 to I-295 ?
Requires the use of I-195 between I-295 and I-95 (N.J. Turnpike) or some other east-west road that links both, such as 541 (Turnpike Exit 5) or NJ-73 (Turnpike Exit 4).

Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
I-95 TO I-295 TO NJTP ?

That is my preferred route.

Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
Or I-95 to the Delaware bay crossing which then would turn into the Garden state Parkway.  :nod:

I-95 does not run anyplace near the south end of the Garden  State Parkway in Cape May County, N.J. or near a possible Delaware landing (Lewes?) of a crossing of the Delaware Bay. To get there from most places in Maryland (such as the Baltimore region or the Washington suburbs in Maryland or Virginia) would require a significant detour via roads like MD/DEL-404, except for traffic wanting to reach the Jersey  Shore from Delaware and points south and west of Delaware.

Actually after doing some numbers, a person coming from OCMD(or Florida) going to NYC using a bridge that crossed From Lewes-Cap May, would be 4 Hours and 42 minutes (the time may be less or more but with speed including the time to get there can go down). Now you could take the other way but it would require going thru Delaware, and some tolls, then Philly and some traffic, and then Uncompleted I-95 , and more traffic. The fact is that this bridge is needed and will save time and money. heres a link to the map https://www.google.com/maps/dir/37.9290341,-75.385437/40.4803814,-74.0039062/@39.30839,-74.3310639,8z/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0
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roadman65

It will also increase traffic on the Garden State Parkway and open up more sprawl in South Jersey.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

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jeffandnicole

Quote from: Tonytone on May 15, 2017, 02:05:27 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 07, 2017, 03:44:30 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 07, 2017, 01:36:58 PM
If Maryland is the chokepoint (as two of you have now suggested), that would speak far more to US 301 improvements (and a Bay Bridge 3rd span) than it would to a minimum-12-mile Delaware Bay water crossing plus approach roadways.  Which completely defeats the OP's purpose for this thread.
If you were going to Ny would you rather take,
I-95 all the way up?
Not currently possible.  When it becomes possible it will not be my preferred route.

Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
I-95 to I-295 ?
Requires the use of I-195 between I-295 and I-95 (N.J. Turnpike) or some other east-west road that links both, such as 541 (Turnpike Exit 5) or NJ-73 (Turnpike Exit 4).

Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
I-95 TO I-295 TO NJTP ?

That is my preferred route.

Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
Or I-95 to the Delaware bay crossing which then would turn into the Garden state Parkway.  :nod:

I-95 does not run anyplace near the south end of the Garden  State Parkway in Cape May County, N.J. or near a possible Delaware landing (Lewes?) of a crossing of the Delaware Bay. To get there from most places in Maryland (such as the Baltimore region or the Washington suburbs in Maryland or Virginia) would require a significant detour via roads like MD/DEL-404, except for traffic wanting to reach the Jersey  Shore from Delaware and points south and west of Delaware.

Actually after doing some numbers, a person coming from OCMD(or Florida) going to NYC using a bridge that crossed From Lewes-Cap May, would be 4 Hours and 42 minutes (the time may be less or more but with speed including the time to get there can go down). Now you could take the other way but it would require going thru Delaware, and some tolls, then Philly and some traffic, and then Uncompleted I-95 , and more traffic. The fact is that this bridge is needed and will save time and money. heres a link to the map https://www.google.com/maps/dir/37.9290341,-75.385437/40.4803814,-74.0039062/@39.30839,-74.3310639,8z/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0

You complain that the longer route goes thru Philly...then you post a route that DOESN'T GO THRU PHILLY.  Actually, your route starts in Chincoteague Island, VA and ends in Sandy Hook, NJ, so I really don't have any idea what the point of this route was anyway, being that you keep talking about OCMD and NYC.

And I'm not sure if you think the Parkway is some unused highway in NJ, but it is often jammed with traffic, both for work and shore.

Beltway

Quote from: Tonytone on May 02, 2017, 12:17:51 AM
On Phillyroads.com I found a page talking about the crossings from Cape May-Lewis and Sea Breeze-Woodland Beach. Now I understand that the areas where highways would have to be formed are rural, but the potential the surrounding land has, and more access freeing up I-95 traffic and also creating roads. http://www.phillyroads.com/crossings/delaware-bay/

It would run from Cape May, NJ to Cape Henlopen, DE.  I have never seen a formal planning study document, although the bridge has been discussed for over 40 years.

I got some charts of Delaware Bay years ago, and mapped out the likely route that a bridge would take.  I placed the east abutment about a mile north of West Cape May.  That seemed to be one of the less inhabited areas around Cape May.  Bridges normally cross a shipping channel at a right angle, so my design went about 7 miles out to the channel (I believe it is called Brandywine Range), crossed on a suspension bridge or cable-stayed bridge with about 180 feet of vertical clearance, then curved about 30 degrees south, and made landfall nears Lewes, DE, near Cape Henlopen.  The bridge would be about 16 miles long.  Four lanes would be the appropriate width.  Mostly low-level trestles like the CBBT.  Water depths generally in the 20 to 70 feet range. The connecting roadway would be a four-lane freeway, and would link the bridge to the Garden State Parkway, and to US 13 in southern Delaware, via a new road parallel to US 9.
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jwolfer

Quote from: roadman65 on May 15, 2017, 06:27:09 AM
It will also increase traffic on the Garden State Parkway and open up more sprawl in South Jersey.
I dont think the sprawl would happen. Monmouth and northern Ocean Counties arealready sprawl. The Pinelands prevents sprawl in southern Ocean, Atlantic and Cape May... Around AC there is some room but its too far from Philadelphia or north Jersey for everyday commutes

LGMS428


jeffandnicole

Quote from: jwolfer on May 15, 2017, 11:12:31 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on May 15, 2017, 06:27:09 AM
It will also increase traffic on the Garden State Parkway and open up more sprawl in South Jersey.
I dont think the sprawl would happen. Monmouth and northern Ocean Counties arealready sprawl. The Pinelands prevents sprawl in southern Ocean, Atlantic and Cape May... Around AC there is some room but its too far from Philadelphia or north Jersey for everyday commutes

LGMS428



You haven't been in Atlantic or Cape May Counties lately, have you?

Tonytone

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 15, 2017, 08:11:05 AM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 15, 2017, 02:05:27 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 07, 2017, 03:44:30 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 07, 2017, 01:36:58 PM
If Maryland is the chokepoint (as two of you have now suggested), that would speak far more to US 301 improvements (and a Bay Bridge 3rd span) than it would to a minimum-12-mile Delaware Bay water crossing plus approach roadways.  Which completely defeats the OP's purpose for this thread.
If you were going to Ny would you rather take,
I-95 all the way up?
Not currently possible.  When it becomes possible it will not be my preferred route.

Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
I-95 to I-295 ?
Requires the use of I-195 between I-295 and I-95 (N.J. Turnpike) or some other east-west road that links both, such as 541 (Turnpike Exit 5) or NJ-73 (Turnpike Exit 4).

Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
I-95 TO I-295 TO NJTP ?

That is my preferred route.

Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
Or I-95 to the Delaware bay crossing which then would turn into the Garden state Parkway.  :nod:

I-95 does not run anyplace near the south end of the Garden  State Parkway in Cape May County, N.J. or near a possible Delaware landing (Lewes?) of a crossing of the Delaware Bay. To get there from most places in Maryland (such as the Baltimore region or the Washington suburbs in Maryland or Virginia) would require a significant detour via roads like MD/DEL-404, except for traffic wanting to reach the Jersey  Shore from Delaware and points south and west of Delaware.

Actually after doing some numbers, a person coming from OCMD(or Florida) going to NYC using a bridge that crossed From Lewes-Cap May, would be 4 Hours and 42 minutes (the time may be less or more but with speed including the time to get there can go down). Now you could take the other way but it would require going thru Delaware, and some tolls, then Philly and some traffic, and then Uncompleted I-95 , and more traffic. The fact is that this bridge is needed and will save time and money. heres a link to the map https://www.google.com/maps/dir/37.9290341,-75.385437/40.4803814,-74.0039062/@39.30839,-74.3310639,8z/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0

You complain that the longer route goes thru Philly...then you post a route that DOESN'T GO THRU PHILLY.  Actually, your route starts in Chincoteague Island, VA and ends in Sandy Hook, NJ, so I really don't have any idea what the point of this route was anyway, being that you keep talking about OCMD and NYC.

And I'm not sure if you think the Parkway is some unused highway in NJ, but it is often jammed with traffic, both for work and shore.

The route would not show crossing Delaware Bay, so I had to use areas of interest. Thus why i used areas close to where like by NY and Cape May. If they do research and have numbers this route will most likely prove better then I-95  :-| . The parkway could most likely Handle the traffic, with some improvements.
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Tonytone

Quote from: jwolfer on May 15, 2017, 11:12:31 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on May 15, 2017, 06:27:09 AM
It will also increase traffic on the Garden State Parkway and open up more sprawl in South Jersey.
I dont think the sprawl would happen. Monmouth and northern Ocean Counties arealready sprawl. The Pinelands prevents sprawl in southern Ocean, Atlantic and Cape May... Around AC there is some room but its too far from Philadelphia or north Jersey for everyday commutes

LGMS428

So a commute from Philly to Ny or Philly to D.C, wouldn't be the same as a commute from Cape May to the places I named? People already drive from Philly to Ny or take a train Vice versa EVERYDAY. so I dont believe a "commute" will ever be the issue.
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bzakharin

Quote from: jwolfer on May 15, 2017, 11:12:31 PM
Around AC there is some room but its too far from Philadelphia or north Jersey for everyday commutes
I commute from the Philly area to the Atlantic City area every day. My former boss commutes from North Jersey (until next week when he's switching jobs). Of course vice versa is harder because there's more traffic, but in any case a hypothetical bridge is not facilitating more traffic from any of those areas, so I don't see how it will spur additional commuter-related development.

jwolfer

Quote from: bzakharin on May 16, 2017, 09:06:22 AM
Quote from: jwolfer on May 15, 2017, 11:12:31 PM
Around AC there is some room but its too far from Philadelphia or north Jersey for everyday commutes
I commute from the Philly area to the Atlantic City area every day. My former boss commutes from North Jersey (until next week when he's switching jobs). Of course vice versa is harder because there's more traffic, but in any case a hypothetical bridge is not facilitating more traffic from any of those areas, so I don't see how it will spur additional commuter-related development.
I am sure there are quite a few who fdo mega commutes. But it is not a good way to live long term.

I grew up in northern Ocean County and people commuted to north Jersey, even to NYC. But it very taxing on body and soul

LGMS428


roadman65

Leave Cape May as a dead end IMO.  Just like Long Island being a dead end in two forks, leave all of the Cape that way.  The ways around it are fine.  Just maybe continue I-97 south of Annapolis to Richmond via US 301 that could take traffic off of I-95.  With the new US 301 toll road and US 301 on the Eastern Shore being limited access motorists could use that along with an interstate corridor from Annapolis to Richmond as a good alternate not needed to upgrade the Delmarva and South Jersey to a full freeway corridor.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

bzakharin

Quote from: jwolfer on May 16, 2017, 10:10:21 AM
Quote from: bzakharin on May 16, 2017, 09:06:22 AM
Quote from: jwolfer on May 15, 2017, 11:12:31 PM
Around AC there is some room but its too far from Philadelphia or north Jersey for everyday commutes
I commute from the Philly area to the Atlantic City area every day. My former boss commutes from North Jersey (until next week when he's switching jobs). Of course vice versa is harder because there's more traffic, but in any case a hypothetical bridge is not facilitating more traffic from any of those areas, so I don't see how it will spur additional commuter-related development.
I am sure there are quite a few who fdo mega commutes. But it is not a good way to live long term.

I grew up in northern Ocean County and people commuted to north Jersey, even to NYC. But it very taxing on body and soul

LGMS428


It's not that bad, one hour each way. Most of the people who work at the company live in the Philly area because there isn't really a big population center where the company is located (the owner/CEO *does* live there, however). Of course it helps that I get to work from home twice a week most of the time.

Beltway

Quote from: bzakharin on May 16, 2017, 11:44:59 AM
It's not that bad, one hour each way. Most of the people who work at the company live in the Philly area because there isn't really a big population center where the company is located (the owner/CEO *does* live there, however). Of course it helps that I get to work from home twice a week most of the time.

The Cape May / Lewes Ferry averages about 800 vehicles per day.

I wonder how much traffic would use a bay bridge there.

Each state would need to see this as a priority and then work to get it built.   

Would both states see this bridge as a priority?
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Roadgeekteen

Quote from: Beltway on May 16, 2017, 01:56:22 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on May 16, 2017, 11:44:59 AM
It's not that bad, one hour each way. Most of the people who work at the company live in the Philly area because there isn't really a big population center where the company is located (the owner/CEO *does* live there, however). Of course it helps that I get to work from home twice a week most of the time.

The Cape May / Lewes Ferry averages about 800 vehicles per day.

I wonder how much traffic would use a bay bridge there.

Each state would need to see this as a priority and then work to get it built.   

Would both states see this bridge as a priority?
Probably would take to much money to build such long of a bridge.
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WillWeaverRVA

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2017, 02:18:28 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 16, 2017, 01:56:22 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on May 16, 2017, 11:44:59 AM
It's not that bad, one hour each way. Most of the people who work at the company live in the Philly area because there isn't really a big population center where the company is located (the owner/CEO *does* live there, however). Of course it helps that I get to work from home twice a week most of the time.

The Cape May / Lewes Ferry averages about 800 vehicles per day.

I wonder how much traffic would use a bay bridge there.

Each state would need to see this as a priority and then work to get it built.   

Would both states see this bridge as a priority?
Probably would take to much money to build such long of a bridge.

That combined with the relatively low traffic volumes that might use such a bridge, and the fact that it would need to be designed to accomodate ships entering and leaving Delaware Bay, makes the idea not really worth it. (That, and I don't think the SJTA would like the idea as it'd take traffic off the Atlantic City Expressway, but they don't matter as much to me.)
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Beltway

Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on May 16, 2017, 04:52:50 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2017, 02:18:28 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 16, 2017, 01:56:22 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on May 16, 2017, 11:44:59 AM
It's not that bad, one hour each way. Most of the people who work at the company live in the Philly area because there isn't really a big population center where the company is located (the owner/CEO *does* live there, however). Of course it helps that I get to work from home twice a week most of the time.

The Cape May / Lewes Ferry averages about 800 vehicles per day.

I wonder how much traffic would use a bay bridge there.

Each state would need to see this as a priority and then work to get it built.   

Would both states see this bridge as a priority?
Probably would take to much money to build such long of a bridge.

That combined with the relatively low traffic volumes that might use such a bridge, and the fact that it would need to be designed to accomodate ships entering and leaving Delaware Bay, makes the idea not really worth it. (That, and I don't think the SJTA would like the idea as it'd take traffic off the Atlantic City Expressway, but they don't matter as much to me.)

Would depend on both states seeing the need.  If one state alone then it would not be buildable.

If it would carry 8,000 to 10,000 or more vehicles per day then it would clearly be justifiable.

I wonder if any traffic projection study was ever performed?
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Tonytone

Quote from: Beltway on May 16, 2017, 05:10:48 PM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on May 16, 2017, 04:52:50 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2017, 02:18:28 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 16, 2017, 01:56:22 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on May 16, 2017, 11:44:59 AM
It's not that bad, one hour each way. Most of the people who work at the company live in the Philly area because there isn't really a big population center where the company is located (the owner/CEO *does* live there, however). Of course it helps that I get to work from home twice a week most of the time.

The Cape May / Lewes Ferry averages about 800 vehicles per day.

I wonder how much traffic would use a bay bridge there.

Each state would need to see this as a priority and then work to get it built.   

Would both states see this bridge as a priority?
Probably would take to much money to build such long of a bridge.

That combined with the relatively low traffic volumes that might use such a bridge, and the fact that it would need to be designed to accomodate ships entering and leaving Delaware Bay, makes the idea not really worth it. (That, and I don't think the SJTA would like the idea as it'd take traffic off the Atlantic City Expressway, but they don't matter as much to me.)

Would depend on both states seeing the need.  If one state alone then it would not be buildable.

If it would carry 8,000 to 10,000 or more vehicles per day then it would clearly be justifiable.

I wonder if any traffic projection study was ever performed?
The Bridge will get traffic just as any other bridge connecting two states. Mind you, these states are also major and are key in the northeast-MidAtlantic Region.
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froggie

2 years ago, when this idea previously came to light on the forum, I posted this.  It's just as valid now as it was then.



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