Oh, Montana, Montana, Montana. Why do you need more roundabouts?

Started by Billy F 1988, May 14, 2017, 06:45:48 PM

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Billy F 1988

What's up, AARoads roadgeeks! It's Billy again! It's been a while. Been doing some moving around and other personal things. Anyways, on with the subject at hand.

So, if anyone on this site lives in Missoula, Montana or has visited the city from elsewhere, you will notice that Orange Street is getting a new roundabout. Yeah. No surprise there. The location of it is at Interstate 90 and Orange Street, exit 104, the original brianchild of US 93 Business and pre-Reserve Street US 93 days.

As you can pretty much tell, I am as pure blooded Montanan as you will ever find and I am not a fan of roundabouts. There is also one at South Avenue and 38th Street in the new Fort Missoula park area just west of the main center of town. Again, not a fan of that roundabout either.

I'm just not a fan of roundabouts at all. Period. But that's what we're getting on Orange Street. I guess in Missoula engineering's mindset, they think roundabouts are better than lights. Don't know about that. We'll see how this goes.
Finally upgraded to Expressway after, what, seven or so years on this forum? Took a dadgum while, but, I made it!


jakeroot

So what is it that you don't like about roundabouts? I'll admit, they're not a perfect fit for every location. But they work great in rural areas. And Suburban areas. Not so much urban areas. Though the mini roundabout, as seen in the UK and some cities in the US, seems to be a good fit for low-volume urban streets.

As for the Orange Street Roundabout at hand here, I think the Orange Street Corridor would normally be too dense for roundabouts to work. But, because this roundabout would be at the very edge of the urban area, and the legs would involve a freeway off-ramp (good fit for a roundabout because of the random arrival time of cars), I think this one will be a success. Might be better for pedestrians too. That crosswalk at 3rd/5th looks kind of dangerous.

corco

I think a roundabout will work great on Orange Street - I've used that interchange many times in my life, and it seems very well suited for that configuration.

MDT is starting to get fairly roundabout happy - there are a whole bunch on the west side of Billings too on Secondary 532.

Kniwt

From the Missoulian, here's a pic of the Orange Street roundabout:


Billy F 1988

Damn, that's quick! Wasn't even a few days ago and it's near completion already.

I won't be surprised if Van Buren Street and I-90 (exit 105) is next on the MDT's hot list of traffic circling.
Finally upgraded to Expressway after, what, seven or so years on this forum? Took a dadgum while, but, I made it!

dvferyance

I don't mind roundabouts some of the time. But what drives me nuts in Wisconsin are these series of them. Like 4 or 5 in a row all within a 1/2 mile of one another. I also dislike them on roads with 55 MPH speed limits. Always have to keep slowing down on a road that is meant for speed. I do think they went a bid overboard with them on Shilo Dr. on the west side of Billings.

jakeroot

Quote from: dvferyance on July 14, 2017, 02:49:14 PM
I don't mind roundabouts some of the time. But what drives me nuts in Wisconsin are these series of them. Like 4 or 5 in a row all within a 1/2 mile of one another. I also dislike them on roads with 55 MPH speed limits. Always have to keep slowing down on a road that is meant for speed. I do think they went a bit overboard with them on Shilo Dr. on the west side of Billings.

Single-lane roundabouts along high-speed arterial roads have proven very effective at cutting down collisions. They're typically built in a series due to an expected growth of traffic. They may not be necessary right now, but they may be in the future. It's cheaper and faster to build them all at once rather than one at a time.

I like well-designed signals as much as the next guy, particularly when the left turns are permissive. But someone blowing through a red light at 55 or higher, hitting a crossing vehicle, would almost certainly result in a fatal collision. The potential for a serious collision is much higher at signals with high-speed approaches.

The Ghostbuster

Here in Madison, there are roundabouts, but it appears the DOT has not been obnoxious about where they place them (4-5 within a 1/2 mile segment does seem a little excessive, but does it greatly slow down traffic flow?).

Billy F 1988

As much as the flashing yellow arrow annoys me, I guess I can cut MDT just teensy bit a slack. I do ere with corco that the Orange Street circle is suitable, especially considering 3rd and 5th streets not looking the best at present, but I think it will help the foot traffic a bit, the trick is though, that vehicles yield left in circles as apposed to stop signs. I don't understand why people stop in the circle. Yield does not mean stop. Now if there were stop signs in the circles at Higgins and Beckwith, South Avenue circle by the new Fort Missoula complex, and Orange, that I can understand why.

I'm not so sure how you can reduce the chance of accidents at Orange and I-90 because in winter, it can get brutal, and traffic circles are not a semi trucker's best friend.
Finally upgraded to Expressway after, what, seven or so years on this forum? Took a dadgum while, but, I made it!

jakeroot

Quote from: Billy F 1988 on July 18, 2017, 07:47:32 PM
I'm not so sure how you can reduce the chance of accidents at Orange and I-90 because in winter, it can get brutal, and traffic circles are not a semi trucker's best friend.

The roundabout, as all roundabouts are, is designed to handle truck/trailers and their wide turning radii. I don't think snow should make it more dangerous. Montanans are used to it, right? Roundabouts and winter weather actually sound like a good combo to me. Both require low speeds. Better than sliding through a red light.

compdude787

Yeah, I don't really get the hate towards roundabouts. They sure are a better way to improve an intersection than adding a light, and they allow the dreaded four way stop to be converted to a higher-capacity intersection.

dvferyance

Quote from: compdude787 on July 19, 2017, 10:50:45 PM
Yeah, I don't really get the hate towards roundabouts. They sure are a better way to improve an intersection than adding a light, and they allow the dreaded four way stop to be converted to a higher-capacity intersection.
But they are not suitable for everywhere. Sometimes they work sometimes they don't.

jakeroot

Quote from: dvferyance on August 02, 2017, 06:13:40 PM
Quote from: compdude787 on July 19, 2017, 10:50:45 PM
Yeah, I don't really get the hate towards roundabouts. They sure are a better way to improve an intersection than adding a light, and they allow the dreaded four way stop to be converted to a higher-capacity intersection.

But they are not suitable for everywhere. Sometimes they work sometimes they don't.

The multi-lane roundabouts tend to be the problematic ones (if the crash-prone roundabouts thread is to be believed). The single-lane ones tend to work quite well.

As for where they're placed, I suppose you have a much better idea of where they belong than the state does, right? :-D

Billy F 1988

Quote from: compdude787 on July 19, 2017, 10:50:45 PM
Yeah, I don't really get the hate towards roundabouts. They sure are a better way to improve an intersection than adding a light, and they allow the dreaded four way stop to be converted to a higher-capacity intersection.

Not sure why you think I'm "hating" on the roundabouts, which I'm not. I just happen to be somewhat a 90's Montana purist. I mean, I guess some roundabouts make sense around Missoula, but there are some that leave me asking why.
Finally upgraded to Expressway after, what, seven or so years on this forum? Took a dadgum while, but, I made it!

Quillz

Quote from: Billy F 1988 on August 02, 2017, 08:47:36 PM
Quote from: compdude787 on July 19, 2017, 10:50:45 PM
Yeah, I don't really get the hate towards roundabouts. They sure are a better way to improve an intersection than adding a light, and they allow the dreaded four way stop to be converted to a higher-capacity intersection.

Not sure why you think I'm "hating" on the roundabouts, which I'm not. I just happen to be somewhat a 90's Montana purist. I mean, I guess some roundabouts make sense around Missoula, but there are some that leave me asking why.
Because you seem to be rather close-minded about roundabouts:

QuoteAs you can pretty much tell, I am as pure blooded Montanan as you will ever find and I am not a fan of roundabouts. There is also one at South Avenue and 38th Street in the new Fort Missoula park area just west of the main center of town. Again, not a fan of that roundabout either.

I'm just not a fan of roundabouts at all. Period. But that's what we're getting on Orange Street. I guess in Missoula engineering's mindset, they think roundabouts are better than lights. Don't know about that. We'll see how this goes.

Roundabouts are generally safe alternatives to four-way stops or signal lights. This is almost surely the reason they were built, as they promote what can be considered traffic calming. I might ask what evidence you have that lights are better than roundabouts. Do they lead to fewer accidents than roundabouts? Because studies tend to suggest the opposite, and I'm sure Missoula took this into account.

mrsman

Judgmentalmaps has highlighted the long corridor of roundabouts in Billings along Shiloh Road.

aboges26

Quote from: mrsman on February 22, 2018, 10:46:50 PM
Judgmentalmaps has highlighted the long corridor of roundabouts in Billings along Shiloh Road.

Nice link...

kurumi

My first SF/horror short story collection is available: "Young Man, Open Your Winter Eye"

Billy F 1988

Quote from: Quillz on September 05, 2017, 01:33:39 AM
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on August 02, 2017, 08:47:36 PM
Quote from: compdude787 on July 19, 2017, 10:50:45 PM
Yeah, I don't really get the hate towards roundabouts. They sure are a better way to improve an intersection than adding a light, and they allow the dreaded four way stop to be converted to a higher-capacity intersection.

Not sure why you think I'm "hating" on the roundabouts, which I'm not. I just happen to be somewhat a 90's Montana purist. I mean, I guess some roundabouts make sense around Missoula, but there are some that leave me asking why.
Because you seem to be rather close-minded about roundabouts:

QuoteAs you can pretty much tell, I am as pure blooded Montanan as you will ever find and I am not a fan of roundabouts. There is also one at South Avenue and 38th Street in the new Fort Missoula park area just west of the main center of town. Again, not a fan of that roundabout either.

I'm just not a fan of roundabouts at all. Period. But that's what we're getting on Orange Street. I guess in Missoula engineering's mindset, they think roundabouts are better than lights. Don't know about that. We'll see how this goes.

Roundabouts are generally safe alternatives to four-way stops or signal lights. This is almost surely the reason they were built, as they promote what can be considered traffic calming. I might ask what evidence you have that lights are better than roundabouts. Do they lead to fewer accidents than roundabouts? Because studies tend to suggest the opposite, and I'm sure Missoula took this into account.

Maybe I'm closed-minded but I think I know why I feel that way. I don't think it has anything to do with the design or placement of them, it's mainly people who don't get where you need to be in certain spots. And some have mowed through roundabouts. Van Buren Street is slated for one either late spring or mid-summer, which I think could mitigate people's fears of coming off Van Buren from the interstate to go on to Broadway either direction. Again, I think I feel closed-minded mainly because of how people don't quite get what to do once one is in place and I think there's a lot of confusion at times for out of state or out of county drivers that come in to Missoula.
Finally upgraded to Expressway after, what, seven or so years on this forum? Took a dadgum while, but, I made it!

Duke87

Quote from: Billy F 1988 on April 05, 2018, 08:26:35 PM
Again, I think I feel closed-minded mainly because of how people don't quite get what to do once one is in place and I think there's a lot of confusion at times for out of state or out of county drivers that come in to Missoula.

This is why I keep saying it's a PEBKAC problem. There is nothing wrong with roundabouts. There is something wrong with drivers who don't know how to properly navigate them.

The solution is to educate people. Building more roundabouts will ultimately help with this endeavor since the more unavoidable they become, the more people will be forced to figure it out rather than shutting their brains off and saying "I don't like it".
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

Billy F 1988

I doubt I'll be shutting my brain off thinking I don't like them. I mean, I deal with the roundabouts frequently and can go through them with relative ease. I'm starting to live with the reality that there will probably be more roundabouts coming in Missoula, including the one on Van Buren Street just off the interstate.

Which makes me think one other thing: does South Avenue and Bancroft Street need one, because it's just one crash away from getting a roundabout.
Finally upgraded to Expressway after, what, seven or so years on this forum? Took a dadgum while, but, I made it!

Plutonic Panda

#21
Quote from: jakeroot on July 19, 2017, 03:09:37 PM
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on July 18, 2017, 07:47:32 PM
I'm not so sure how you can reduce the chance of accidents at Orange and I-90 because in winter, it can get brutal, and traffic circles are not a semi trucker's best friend.

The roundabout, as all roundabouts are, is designed to handle truck/trailers and their wide turning radii. I don't think snow should make it more dangerous. Montanans are used to it, right? Roundabouts and winter weather actually sound like a good combo to me. Both require low speeds. Better than sliding through a red light.
Cars are becoming more safe as it is and, IIRC, some roundabouts have experienced a higher collision rate though usually lower fatal collision rates. I don't like roundabouts because no matter what you have to slow down to usually well below the speed limit to navigate through them and at least with traditional intersections you have a chance of hitting the green light and not having to slow down. If safety is of the uttermost importance, than grade separation is always king.

But what gets me about it is that I don't understand why urban or walkability advocates(which based off of your posts makes me think you're one or lean more towards urban areas transit... which is fine I'm not hating here just making a point) like roundabouts. They are not necessarily safer for bikers or especially pedestrians and in fact can be more dangerous than traditional 4 way stops or intersections. I don't think the verdict is fully out but the results I've seen so far have been a mixed bag. Roundabouts seem to be primarily tailored to cars and any interaction between cars and pedestrians requires the driver to yield usually which the driver also has to be looking for oncoming traffic which can cause distractions. Sometimes I think a lot of urbanists here in the states just like roundabouts because Europe has a lot them and whatever Europe does is just cool so we should do it. I will admit, I do like some of the roundabout in Norway that are elevated with bike lanes separated though I think flyovers would accomplish that better and keep vehicles traveling at speed while doing so.

jakeroot

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 10, 2018, 05:47:36 AM
But what gets me about it is that I don't understand why urban or walkability advocates(which based off of your posts makes me think you're one or lean more towards urban areas transit... which is fine I'm not hating here just making a point) like roundabouts. They are not necessarily safer for bikers or especially pedestrians and in fact can be more dangerous than traditional 4 way stops or intersections. I don't think the verdict is fully out but the results I've seen so far have been a mixed bag. Roundabouts seem to be primarily tailored to cars and any interaction between cars and pedestrians requires the driver to yield usually which the driver also has to be looking for oncoming traffic which can cause distractions.

I'm kind of an urbanist. I grew up in the suburbs, and I liked it just fine. I'm just not a fan of seeing areas that used to be wood or farmland being destroyed to build homes. The Pacific Northwest has a very fragile ecosystem, and I really would rather see developed areas developed more, rather than focusing our efforts on undeveloped land.

As for roundabouts, I think a true urbanist prefers uncontrolled intersections with raised pavement (flat crossing area for pedestrians). Roundabouts are a happy medium, since they force traffic that's paying attention to slow down and assess whether it's safe, but they don't always get traffic to yield to pedestrians (since drivers are focused on yielding to cars). A raised crosswalk could improve the situation, but those are rare and mostly unstudied, I'd imagine. Roundabouts aren't too great for cyclists either. The Netherlands has built some rather impressive roundabouts that feature parallel protected cycle paths, but they're a ROW nightmare.

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 10, 2018, 05:47:36 AM
Sometimes I think a lot of urbanists here in the states just like roundabouts because Europe has a lot them and whatever Europe does is just cool so we should do it. I will admit, I do like some of the roundabout in Norway that are elevated with bike lanes separated though I think flyovers would accomplish that better and keep vehicles traveling at speed while doing so.

The obsession with European practice is due to Europe's better safety record. Most countries in Europe have fewer pedestrian and driver deaths per capita than the US. They also have more experience in working with urban environments. As the US grows, our urban areas become denser (even in cities where that's not the goal, unlike Seattle), so, as with any situation, you look for guidance from those with more experience than your own.

Plutonic Panda

#23
Farmland and forest have to be destroyed for homes and businesses. Just because you don't like to see low density homes and sprawled out suburbs shouldn't neglect the fact others have a right to live in the type of environment they want.

As for Europe, Europe has a much lesser driving culture in the U.S. and I'd be willing to guess less people drive in the whole continent, but I'm unsure of that. Without verifying, I'm almost certain there is no country in Europe that drives more than the U.S. Even if looked at from miles driven perspective, you still have the fact there are so many people driving here there is more chance for things to happen. If the U.S. had the same road designs as Europe minus the lack of capacity, I'd stick my neck out and be willing to guess traffic fatalities would be around the same.

That said, I'm warming up to roundabout, but I still don't think they're that pedestrian friendly and the stats are on the fence about it. I would support raised intersections in some section and I'd say they would help a little, but then you still have the issue of drivers looking for other drivers more so than they would be focusing on pedestrians, naturally. Now grade separated crosswalks would be the way to go, imo, but then you have the cost issue.

Me personally, I support an entirely grade separated transit system across nearly every front with few exceptions, so anything grade separated gets an A+ from me.

mrsman

It seems to me that roundabouts are horrible for peds, for the reasons mentioned above.  You are so focused on yielding to cars, that you overlook peds.  Not safe.

One approach that might work is for some type of signalization like a pelican crossing for each ped crossing.  When peds are present, the cars will stop with a red light, at other times they drive through the crosswalk and then yield when they reach the roundabout.  But to do this, the ped crossing probably has to be some significant distance away from the roundabout, which will force peds to walk greater distances.



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