Left hand turn at sold green light; Florida

Started by mike florida, June 18, 2017, 04:51:50 PM

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kalvado

Quote from: mike florida on June 22, 2017, 02:23:04 PM
I would find it MORE dangerous to "aim" for a gap in traffic from back at the stop line while hoping I do not need to change my mind to yield and risk getting a ticket, than waiting in the intersection to complete my turn over a shorter distance. (there is no dedicated green arrow at this intersection as an option if you miss the solid green)

I talked to an attorney friend and she cautioned me about trying to fight the ticket. I've never done it and my wife has not either. The attorney said it will be a "cattle call" and we could end up spending hours there. Court fees if the officer shows up and we lose could be $100+ dollars. With our schedules I may just need to pay them off to go away. Feels like paying "protection money". I'm probably going to let it go. It's eating me up more than it's worth.

I'll do a follow up here when it is settled. I've read all the comments! Thank you, everyone! (even Baloo  :poke:)
Unfortunately, this is exactly the approach expected  for maximum revenue collection.


jakeroot

Look Mike, it's your money (and I understand that not everyone has tons of it lying around). But don't set a bad precedent. If you can get a judge to agree with you, that "obstruction" laws weren't meant to be used for those waiting to turn left, you'd create a case law that would allow everyone in the same boat to get their tickets tossed as well (and you'd never have to worry about a similar ticket again). On the other hand, if you pay the ticket, you're basically telling the officer that, yeah, you were in the wrong, blah blah blah. Your ticket is fucking bullshit, and they need to know that.

If the judge disagrees with you, at least ask him to reduce the fine and keep the ticket off the record. Most judges are pretty cool about that (at least in my area).

7/8

Saw this article that made me think of this thread (slide 4 of 5) :): http://www.chicagonow.com/lists-that-actually-matter/2011/02/top-5-habits-of-the-annoying-driver/#image/4

QuoteThe left turn intersection fearer: Pull out. Pu ... pull ... pull out. Pull out! PULL OUT! Dear God, you better be a student driver or on your way home from being lobotomized. As much as I enjoy sitting through lights multiple times, perhaps next go-round you could just slowly pull out into the intersection during the green light cycle so that when it turns yellow and the oncoming traffic stops, a couple of us can, you know, actually travel through the light. Thanks! Oh, and also, die.

jwolfer

Quote from: mike florida on June 22, 2017, 02:23:04 PM
I would find it MORE dangerous to "aim" for a gap in traffic from back at the stop line while hoping I do not need to change my mind to yield and risk getting a ticket, than waiting in the intersection to complete my turn over a shorter distance. (there is no dedicated green arrow at this intersection as an option if you miss the solid green)

I talked to an attorney friend and she cautioned me about trying to fight the ticket. I've never done it and my wife has not either. The attorney said it will be a "cattle call" and we could end up spending hours there. Court fees if the officer shows up and we lose could be $100+ dollars. With our schedules I may just need to pay them off to go away. Feels like paying "protection money". I'm probably going to let it go. It's eating me up more than it's worth.

I'll do a follow up here when it is settled. I've read all the comments! Thank you, everyone! (even Baloo  :poke:)
If you hire an attorney to go to court for you. You wont need to be there. I have done it. The attorney will usually get it reduced or plead no contest.. No points on licence.

It will cost you attorney fees and court costs but in some cases its about the same as the ticket.

In Florida you can hire an attorney via  ticketclinic.com or just look up traffic ticket attorney online... Lots of them oit there

LGMS428


1995hoo

Quote from: jakeroot on June 22, 2017, 03:38:50 PM
Look Mike, it's your money (and I understand that not everyone has tons of it lying around). But don't set a bad precedent. If you can get a judge to agree with you, that "obstruction" laws weren't meant to be used for those waiting to turn left, you'd create a case law that would allow everyone in the same boat to get their tickets tossed as well (and you'd never have to worry about a similar ticket again). On the other hand, if you pay the ticket, you're basically telling the officer that, yeah, you were in the wrong, blah blah blah. Your ticket is fucking bullshit, and they need to know that.

If the judge disagrees with you, at least ask him to reduce the fine and keep the ticket off the record. Most judges are pretty cool about that (at least in my area).

For what it's worth, most traffic courts are "courts not of record," meaning the judges' decisions and the reasons therefor are not recorded in a way that allows them to be cited as useful precedent in front of other judges in the future. The court systems vary from state to state, of course, but generally traffic court is at the lowest level of the judicial structure in part because of the high volume of cases.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
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commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
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jeffandnicole

Quote from: mike florida on June 22, 2017, 02:23:04 PM
I talked to an attorney friend and she cautioned me about trying to fight the ticket. I've never done it and my wife has not either. The attorney said it will be a "cattle call" and we could end up spending hours there. Court fees if the officer shows up and we lose could be $100+ dollars. With our schedules I may just need to pay them off to go away. Feels like paying "protection money". I'm probably going to let it go. It's eating me up more than it's worth.

Put it this way: I've never heard a cop or an attorney say "Go to court, because you'll win!".

If you *paid* an attorney to fight they ticket, they'll be more than happy to accept the offer.  As was mentioned, most attorneys will simply ask to have the ticket downgraded.  They're not really fighting on your behalf...they're simply looking for an easy hour or two of work.  Guess what - In the times I've gone to court, including for tailgating a cop in a marked cop car, I've had every ticket downgraded as requested.  A coworker of mine recent was ticketed for a 48 in a 25, nearly double the limit.  She went to court hoping to plead it down a bit.  They wound up giving her a $100 fine, no points (Actual penalty would've been about $250, 4 points).

It certainly depends on the jurisdiction, the cop, and the judge. I'm not going to say you will be successful, but in most courts you can usually work with the prosecutor and judge, and I still believe that you can win based on that you were ticketed on theory, not reality.

jakeroot

Quote from: 1995hoo on June 23, 2017, 07:36:15 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 22, 2017, 03:38:50 PM
Look Mike, it's your money (and I understand that not everyone has tons of it lying around). But don't set a bad precedent. If you can get a judge to agree with you, that "obstruction" laws weren't meant to be used for those waiting to turn left, you'd create a case law that would allow everyone in the same boat to get their tickets tossed as well (and you'd never have to worry about a similar ticket again). On the other hand, if you pay the ticket, you're basically telling the officer that, yeah, you were in the wrong, blah blah blah. Your ticket is fucking bullshit, and they need to know that.

For what it's worth, most traffic courts are "courts not of record," meaning the judges' decisions and the reasons therefor are not recorded in a way that allows them to be cited as useful precedent in front of other judges in the future. The court systems vary from state to state, of course, but generally traffic court is at the lowest level of the judicial structure in part because of the high volume of cases.

I've been concerned about that. That's too bad, too, because in cases where the law is vague and enforcement is sticky, preceding decisions would be of great help in getting tickets tossed.

US 89

Quote from: 7/8 on June 22, 2017, 11:22:51 PM
Saw this article that made me think of this thread (slide 4 of 5) :): http://www.chicagonow.com/lists-that-actually-matter/2011/02/top-5-habits-of-the-annoying-driver/#image/4

QuoteThe left turn intersection fearer: Pull out. Pu ... pull ... pull out. Pull out! PULL OUT! Dear God, you better be a student driver or on your way home from being lobotomized. As much as I enjoy sitting through lights multiple times, perhaps next go-round you could just slowly pull out into the intersection during the green light cycle so that when it turns yellow and the oncoming traffic stops, a couple of us can, you know, actually travel through the light. Thanks! Oh, and also, die.

+1 Totally agree.

Also, when you make a permissive left on a yellow light, you have to wait until you're absolutely sure all of the oncoming traffic is going to stop (because if they don't, the crash is your fault because you didn't yield to oncoming traffic). Usually, that means the light turns red while you are waiting. If you wait behind the stop line, then the car behind you will technically run a red light to make the turn. If you pull out, you give more cars the chance to turn, and less of them will run the red light.

jakeroot

Quote from: roadguy2 on June 23, 2017, 01:58:31 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on June 22, 2017, 11:22:51 PM
Saw this article that made me think of this thread (slide 4 of 5) :): http://www.chicagonow.com/lists-that-actually-matter/2011/02/top-5-habits-of-the-annoying-driver/#image/4

QuoteThe left turn intersection fearer: Pull out. Pu ... pull ... pull out. Pull out! PULL OUT! Dear God, you better be a student driver or on your way home from being lobotomized. As much as I enjoy sitting through lights multiple times, perhaps next go-round you could just slowly pull out into the intersection during the green light cycle so that when it turns yellow and the oncoming traffic stops, a couple of us can, you know, actually travel through the light. Thanks! Oh, and also, die.

+1 Totally agree.

Also, when you make a permissive left on a yellow light, you have to wait until you're absolutely sure all of the oncoming traffic is going to stop (because if they don't, the crash is your fault because you didn't yield to oncoming traffic). Usually, that means the light turns red while you are waiting. If you wait behind the stop line, then the car behind you will technically run a red light to make the turn. If you pull out, you give more cars the chance to turn, and less of them will run the red light.

Bingo! Always pull out as far as possible, to maximize the number of cars who can turn after the light goes red. Sure, you might be "blocking" side street traffic for a brief second or two, but you entered on a green light, and have every legal right to be where you are. That includes having priority over side street traffic, who had a red light when you entered.

Brandon

Quote from: 7/8 on June 22, 2017, 11:22:51 PM
Saw this article that made me think of this thread (slide 4 of 5) :): http://www.chicagonow.com/lists-that-actually-matter/2011/02/top-5-habits-of-the-annoying-driver/#image/4

QuoteThe left turn intersection fearer: Pull out. Pu ... pull ... pull out. Pull out! PULL OUT! Dear God, you better be a student driver or on your way home from being lobotomized. As much as I enjoy sitting through lights multiple times, perhaps next go-round you could just slowly pull out into the intersection during the green light cycle so that when it turns yellow and the oncoming traffic stops, a couple of us can, you know, actually travel through the light. Thanks! Oh, and also, die.

Reading the rest of them, this is the bullshit I see every day here around Chicagoland (not shocking as the author of the article is from Chicago).

It's the only place I actually fear for my life at times driving due to the (bad) driving habits of the locals.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

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vdeane

Quote from: jakeroot on June 23, 2017, 02:26:08 PM
Quote from: roadguy2 on June 23, 2017, 01:58:31 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on June 22, 2017, 11:22:51 PM
Saw this article that made me think of this thread (slide 4 of 5) :): http://www.chicagonow.com/lists-that-actually-matter/2011/02/top-5-habits-of-the-annoying-driver/#image/4

QuoteThe left turn intersection fearer: Pull out. Pu ... pull ... pull out. Pull out! PULL OUT! Dear God, you better be a student driver or on your way home from being lobotomized. As much as I enjoy sitting through lights multiple times, perhaps next go-round you could just slowly pull out into the intersection during the green light cycle so that when it turns yellow and the oncoming traffic stops, a couple of us can, you know, actually travel through the light. Thanks! Oh, and also, die.

+1 Totally agree.

Also, when you make a permissive left on a yellow light, you have to wait until you're absolutely sure all of the oncoming traffic is going to stop (because if they don't, the crash is your fault because you didn't yield to oncoming traffic). Usually, that means the light turns red while you are waiting. If you wait behind the stop line, then the car behind you will technically run a red light to make the turn. If you pull out, you give more cars the chance to turn, and less of them will run the red light.

Bingo! Always pull out as far as possible, to maximize the number of cars who can turn after the light goes red. Sure, you might be "blocking" side street traffic for a brief second or two, but you entered on a green light, and have every legal right to be where you are. That includes having priority over side street traffic, who had a red light when you entered.
At least around here, only the first car is allowed to pull into the intersection.  All other cars must wait behind the stop line.  They'd be running the red.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

jakeroot

Quote from: vdeane on June 23, 2017, 08:23:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 23, 2017, 02:26:08 PM
Quote from: roadguy2 on June 23, 2017, 01:58:31 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on June 22, 2017, 11:22:51 PM
Saw this article that made me think of this thread (slide 4 of 5) :): http://www.chicagonow.com/lists-that-actually-matter/2011/02/top-5-habits-of-the-annoying-driver/#image/4

QuoteThe left turn intersection fearer: Pull out. Pu ... pull ... pull out. Pull out! PULL OUT! Dear God, you better be a student driver or on your way home from being lobotomized. As much as I enjoy sitting through lights multiple times, perhaps next go-round you could just slowly pull out into the intersection during the green light cycle so that when it turns yellow and the oncoming traffic stops, a couple of us can, you know, actually travel through the light. Thanks! Oh, and also, die.

+1 Totally agree.

Also, when you make a permissive left on a yellow light, you have to wait until you're absolutely sure all of the oncoming traffic is going to stop (because if they don't, the crash is your fault because you didn't yield to oncoming traffic). Usually, that means the light turns red while you are waiting. If you wait behind the stop line, then the car behind you will technically run a red light to make the turn. If you pull out, you give more cars the chance to turn, and less of them will run the red light.

Bingo! Always pull out as far as possible, to maximize the number of cars who can turn after the light goes red. Sure, you might be "blocking" side street traffic for a brief second or two, but you entered on a green light, and have every legal right to be where you are. That includes having priority over side street traffic, who had a red light when you entered.

At least around here, only the first car is allowed to pull into the intersection.  All other cars must wait behind the stop line.  They'd be running the red.

How could they be running the red if they passed the stop line on green?

I think your "one car at a time" rule might be from the NY driver's manual. Those aren't legally binding. You are not running a red light if you enter an intersection on green. Even if there's six cars all waiting past the stop line, none of them broke any laws because they entered on green.

mike florida

We never went to court. We paid the ticket(fine) and agreed to take a four hour online course. Adjudication withheld. That's a standard choice here in Florida depending on circumstances.

No time for court. Hiring a lawyer does not guarantee anything, and the result could have even been more expensive. We made the least damaging choice for ourselves, regardless of justice.

Thanks for all the advice.



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