Roads that Split while Keeping the Same Name/Number

Started by freebrickproductions, August 30, 2017, 01:49:06 PM

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empirestate

Quote from: vdeane on August 31, 2017, 10:05:11 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 31, 2017, 08:24:42 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 31, 2017, 12:50:11 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 30, 2017, 09:48:52 PM
NY 52 on both sides of US 209 in Ellenville is signed and state-maintained in both directions on Center St and Canal St. Reference markers list both as NY 52, but with Center as the "main" leg. This is the only instance of this in the state that I know of, as most wyes and splits are officially reference routes (even if signed as the main route).
Is it?  It's signed as CR 52 in at least one place, and RIS doesn't even show it as a state route.  It's possible that we're looking at some erroneous signage on/near US 209.

CR 52 is Ulster Heights Rd and a couple of the NYSDOT reports list both as NY 52. Reference markers exist, with a V in the second space of the third line. Keeping it weird, WB through traffic defaults onto Canal, while EB defaults to Center. Now I'm really curious, because everything on the ground would indicate NYSDOT maintenance, including the NYSDOT salt trucks I have seen working Canal.
Only other thing I can think of is that the streets might have been a one-way pair (which would be consistent with RIS and the Traffic Data Viewer; if Canal was treated as the opposite direction of Central, it wouldn't have inventory data of its own).

Yes, Ellenville is officially a one-way couplet of NY 52; the V in reference markers is used to denote this. I think it's the only such example in the state–there are other one-way couplets, but they tend to be locally-maintained and thus don't get reference markers. And what's weird in Ellenville is that the one-way couplet applies only to the route designation, not to the actuall streets it follows, which are two-way.


silverback1065

Quote from: Henry on August 31, 2017, 09:29:03 AM
I-270 at the Capital Beltway does this, and the western part of the fork is even labeled a Spur. Same goes for I-895 south of Baltimore.

that piece should be i-97

cl94

Quote from: empirestate on September 01, 2017, 08:47:09 AM
Quote from: vdeane on August 31, 2017, 10:05:11 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 31, 2017, 08:24:42 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 31, 2017, 12:50:11 PM
Quote from: cl94 on August 30, 2017, 09:48:52 PM
NY 52 on both sides of US 209 in Ellenville is signed and state-maintained in both directions on Center St and Canal St. Reference markers list both as NY 52, but with Center as the "main" leg. This is the only instance of this in the state that I know of, as most wyes and splits are officially reference routes (even if signed as the main route).
Is it?  It's signed as CR 52 in at least one place, and RIS doesn't even show it as a state route.  It's possible that we're looking at some erroneous signage on/near US 209.

CR 52 is Ulster Heights Rd and a couple of the NYSDOT reports list both as NY 52. Reference markers exist, with a V in the second space of the third line. Keeping it weird, WB through traffic defaults onto Canal, while EB defaults to Center. Now I'm really curious, because everything on the ground would indicate NYSDOT maintenance, including the NYSDOT salt trucks I have seen working Canal.
Only other thing I can think of is that the streets might have been a one-way pair (which would be consistent with RIS and the Traffic Data Viewer; if Canal was treated as the opposite direction of Central, it wouldn't have inventory data of its own).

Yes, Ellenville is officially a one-way couplet of NY 52; the V in reference markers is used to denote this. I think it's the only such example in the state–there are other one-way couplets, but they tend to be locally-maintained and thus don't get reference markers. And what's weird in Ellenville is that the one-way couplet applies only to the route designation, not to the actual streets it follows, which are two-way.

That's my point, the streets are two-way. What's really weird here is that, at US 209, it's signed as if both streets carry both directions and both streets are fully maintained by NYSDOT. I knew a V was usually used for one-way couplets, I've just never seen it used in a case where BOTH streets of the couplet are two-way and fully state-maintained.

There are other one-way couplets maintained by the state. Main ones that come to mind are US 62 in Niagara Falls (Business US 62 is local) and Oak/Elm Streets in Buffalo (a single reference route). Documentation is unclear, but a few blocks of NY 2 in Troy may or may not be maintained by NYSDOT (traffic counts say yes, stuff on the surface indicates no), but there are no reference markers (though this does not mean no state maintenance, as Broadway in Buffalo is definitely a reference route with no markers).
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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Mapmikey

PA 415 does this around Harvey Lake where the route is assigned to each direction around the lake.  GMSV is from 2009 and shows no postings at all at the decision point from either direction.

NJ 7 also has its weird spur in Belleville, posted as NJ 7 on overhead blades on the spur portion...

SignGeek101


bugo

Oklahoma 77S in Love and Carter Counties in the south central part of the state splits not once, but twice. Here's a map I patched together showing the routings of OK 77S. The southern terminus is at OK 32 east of Marietta. It heads north and splits into two branches near Lake Murray. The eastern branch heads southeast, then north around the east side of Lake Murray and ends at US 70. The western branch heads northwest then north around the west side of Murray Lake to the Love/Carter County line. At the county line, another branch heads west along the county line and crosses US 77 and ends at I-35 exit 24. The main western branch heads north, crosses US 70 into Ardmore where it ends at the junction of Lake Murray Road and 10th Street, which is not a state highway. Some maps show it continuing west on 10th Avenue and west on Myall, ending at US 77, but the newest ODOT control section maps show it ending at 10th Avenue, but these maps are older and reflect a former terminus. There is an end OK 77S sign on Lake Murray Road at 10th. This is a bizarre highway with four termini.



Two others are Arkansas 197 in New Blaine and US 71B in north Fayetteville, AR. AR 102 used to split in Centerton but one branch has been renamed AR 102B. I think there's another one somewhere in Arkansas, but I can't remember where off the top of my head (David?)

bugo

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 31, 2017, 04:02:03 AM
In Oklahoma, SH-63A, SH-77D, and SH-77S all do this. 77S has four termini.

How is OK 77D 3 legged? The ODOT control section map only shows one section of the highway.



vdeane

Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

roadman65

Currently FL 39 does this in Plant City, FL.

Also US 11 and NY 12 both do these in Watertown, NY.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Chris19001

US202 in Bridgeport, PA probably qualifies.  From the split on the south side of Bridgeport, it crosses the Schuylkill into Norristown and the DeKalb Street segment goes a few blocks as two way before becoming one way northbound.  South of Norristown though, the northbound and southbound segments are both two-way separated by few blocks.  The western roadbed (202 south) is a brief expressway segment, while the eastern roadbed (202 north) is a city street.  For road geeks, the interchange for the partially built Schuylkill Parkway (PA23) is also of note halfway through Bridgeport..

cl94

Quote from: roadman65 on September 01, 2017, 12:45:42 PM
Also US 11 and NY 12 both do these in Watertown, NY.

Neither do. NY 12 has a one-way pair around Public Square. One-way pairs and circles are banned. US 11 has no split whatsoever; it passes west of downtown on Holcomb, Massey and Leray Streets.

QuoteHowever, in finding locations where this happens, the guideline I use is that the road in question must split in two or more directions without changing prefix/suffix, and allow two way traffic on all legs.
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vdeane

Only southbound US 11 does that.  Northbound follows Washington and Mill.  It's treated similar to NY 52.
https://goo.gl/maps/WZ9AfCsJAh72
https://goo.gl/maps/QG8Tbn87Stn
https://goo.gl/maps/suDe6MpgD622

NY 12 also splits in Watertown similarly.  Northbound follows Mill and Main.  Southbund follows Massey and Arsenal.  Northbound overlaps US 11 for part of its route and is independent for another.  Southbound overlaps US 11 for part and NY 3 the rest.
https://goo.gl/maps/zJSM64HMbRG2
https://goo.gl/maps/n6UsgofU4H32
https://goo.gl/maps/PPju39yvbdK2
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

cl94

Guess I learn something new every day. Of course, the split section is city-maintained, but still counts. Wonder what the reasoning for these was.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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roadman65

Quote from: cl94 on September 01, 2017, 12:53:58 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on September 01, 2017, 12:45:42 PM
Also US 11 and NY 12 both do these in Watertown, NY.

Neither do. NY 12 has a one-way pair around Public Square. One-way pairs and circles are banned. US 11 has no split whatsoever; it passes west of downtown on Holcomb, Massey and Leray Streets.

QuoteHowever, in finding locations where this happens, the guideline I use is that the road in question must split in two or more directions without changing prefix/suffix, and allow two way traffic on all legs.
Actually its signed as both from NY 3.  I have photos of both routes junctioning with the east west highway twice not showing a split in either North or South.  Both junctions feature both N and S for US 11 and NY 12 going either way with a concurrency with NY 3 in Downtown.  Both are indeed two ways if they were considered to be two alignments for the same road with one north and one south as per OP.  In fact you travel each way the straight through of both have it on the different alignments as vdeane says.

US 301 used to be that way through most of Delaware as NB was using DE 299 to US 13 and then north where it joined its southbound counterpart just south of State Road.  The SB US 301 used DE 71 after departing US 13 where the DE 1 Turnpike now merges with it, and had a one side concurrency with DE 71 until DE 896 where it ran along with it and DE 71 till Middletown rejoining its HB counterpart.  Later on NB was moved to follow DE 896 NB to US 40 EB at Glasgow and then east with US 40 to rejoin SB US 301 at State Road.

US 206 does that still in Trenton, NJ where NB is on two way Brunswick Avenue and SB is on two way Princeton Avenue.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

empirestate

Quote from: cl94 on September 01, 2017, 10:27:20 AM
There are other one-way couplets maintained by the state. Main ones that come to mind are US 62 in Niagara Falls (Business US 62 is local) and Oak/Elm Streets in Buffalo (a single reference route). Documentation is unclear, but a few blocks of NY 2 in Troy may or may not be maintained by NYSDOT (traffic counts say yes, stuff on the surface indicates no), but there are no reference markers (though this does not mean no state maintenance, as Broadway in Buffalo is definitely a reference route with no markers).

Well of course, New York also has a marked tendency to establish a standard for something, then to do everything but that.

US 89

UT-282 in Salt Lake City. It's really a designation for all state maintained roads within the University of Utah. It has six termini, two of which are at itself.

If one way pairs count, UT-269 is entirely made up of the one way pair of 500 and 600 South in downtown SLC (which is one of the only one way pairs in SLC).

cl94

In Utah, all roads on state university campuses are state highways. Think Arkansas and Virginia are the same. Creates weird stuff like this.
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freebrickproductions

Quote from: roadguy2 on September 02, 2017, 02:25:35 AM
If one way pairs count, UT-269 is entirely made up of the one way pair of 500 and 600 South in downtown SLC (which is one of the only one way pairs in SLC).
Unless two-way traffic is allowed on both streets, then it doesn't count.
It's all fun & games until someone summons Cthulhu and brings about the end of the world.

I also collect traffic lights, road signs, fans, and railroad crossing equipment.

(They/Them)

1995hoo

Quote from: cl94 on September 02, 2017, 01:52:44 PM
In Utah, all roads on state university campuses are state highways. Think Arkansas and Virginia are the same. Creates weird stuff like this.

Correct as to Virginia, where they're state primary routes, and all roads within a particular campus or Grounds will have the same route number. I forgot all about that when I posted earlier in the thread. At least in Charlottesville I don't believe the number is posted anywhere. The Annandale campus of Northern Virginia Community College does have its route number posted in a few places. Can't say I know either way about whether any others are posted.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Mapmikey

#44
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 02, 2017, 03:44:39 PM
Quote from: cl94 on September 02, 2017, 01:52:44 PM
In Utah, all roads on state university campuses are state highways. Think Arkansas and Virginia are the same. Creates weird stuff like this.

Correct as to Virginia, where they're state primary routes, and all roads within a particular campus or Grounds will have the same route number. I forgot all about that when I posted earlier in the thread. At least in Charlottesville I don't believe the number is posted anywhere. The Annandale campus of Northern Virginia Community College does have its route number posted in a few places. Can't say I know either way about whether any others are posted.

Only 1 VA 302 shield has been observed in the last 20 years and it is gone now.

VA 376 at NVCC-Annandale is very well posted at VA 236 and internally.

VA 303 at VMI has not been posted in the last 25+ years at least to my knowledge

Two non-connecting segments of VA 314 at Virginia Tech are posted.

VA 321 for William and Mary is posted but only on a part that is not part of the campus.

VA 327 Virginia State U and VA 328 Longwood College are not currently posted in the last 25+ years.

VA 331 for JMU is only posted at its satellite campus near Port Republic.

VA 345 for Richard Bland College is posted.

VA 350 for Tidewater CC in Virginia Beach has not been posted in its lifetime.

VA 353 for VCU in Richmond has been posted on both its incarnations.

VA 366 is no longer posted for Tyler CC near Chester but was well into the 1990s.

VA 367 is no longer posted at the north end of VA 135 for Tidewater CC in Suffolk but it was in the early 1990s.

VA 368 for the CC in Lynchburg has not been posted in the last 25+ years.

VA 369 for SW CC has been well-posted for a while.

VA 393 and 394 in Prince William were posted up to the mid-90s.

Community Colleges for these routes are well posted:
VA 363 near Weyers Cave
VA 365 Wytheville
VA 371 Martinsville
VA 372 Abingdon
VA 373 Dublin
VA 374 Glenns
VA 375 Wilderness (single rectangle only)
VA 378 Alberta
VA 379 Franklin
VA 384 Clifton Forge
VA 385 Keysville
VA 387 Empire CC
VA 388 Charlottesville
VA 389 Melfa
VA 391 Herndon
VA 396 Goochland
VA 398 Danville



VA 377 Middletown and VA 382 UVA-Wise are not posted

VA 383 George Mason U. is posted at VA 123 only

Not all state and community colleges are in the primary system in Virginia...
At least 3 have relinquished their primary route designations:  VA 330 Mary Washington College (Fredericksburg); VA 355 Radford Univ; VA 361 Eastern Shore near Chincoteague

roadman65

In Washington, DC US 1 is sort of that way.  SB when it ends its concurrency with US 50 it goes through the 7th Street Tunnel and then on I-395, but NB exits I-395 at 14th Street (both routes are concurrent across the Potomac River) and then up 14th until it meets US 50 and then has a one sided concurrency with that US route.

However, I heard that it really does not go through the 7th Street Tunnel and used to be signed that way cause DC Law had a left turn prohibition on Constitution Avenue WB at 14th St. NW where US 1 is really aligned, so to avoid that DC signed it that way continuing SB on 7th St. SW and I-395 to avoid this.  Then I also heard that US 1 may be on 15th St. SW in the SB direction where left turns are allowed to it from Constitution Avenue.  That last one would put US 1 officially on two different two way streets.

Of course DC don't sign US routes too well these days and all could be just in the field when they did and the official alignments are still as they were many decades ago.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

hbelkins

Quote from: Mapmikey on September 02, 2017, 04:27:31 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 02, 2017, 03:44:39 PM
Quote from: cl94 on September 02, 2017, 01:52:44 PM
In Utah, all roads on state university campuses are state highways. Think Arkansas and Virginia are the same. Creates weird stuff like this.

Correct as to Virginia, where they're state primary routes, and all roads within a particular campus or Grounds will have the same route number. I forgot all about that when I posted earlier in the thread. At least in Charlottesville I don't believe the number is posted anywhere. The Annandale campus of Northern Virginia Community College does have its route number posted in a few places. Can't say I know either way about whether any others are posted.

Only 1 VA 302 shield has been observed in the last 20 years and it is gone now.

VA 376 at NVCC-Annandale is very well posted at VA 236 and internally.

VA 303 at VMI has not been posted in the last 25+ years at least to my knowledge

Two non-connecting segments of VA 314 at Virginia Tech are posted.

VA 321 for William and Mary is posted but only on a part that is not part of the campus.

VA 327 Virginia State U and VA 328 Longwood College are not currently posted in the last 25+ years.

VA 331 for JMU is only posted at its satellite campus near Port Republic.

VA 345 for Richard Bland College is posted.

VA 350 for Tidewater CC in Virginia Beach has not been posted in its lifetime.

VA 353 for VCU in Richmond has been posted on both its incarnations.

VA 366 is no longer posted for Tyler CC near Chester but was well into the 1990s.

VA 367 is no longer posted at the north end of VA 135 for Tidewater CC in Suffolk but it was in the early 1990s.

VA 368 for the CC in Lynchburg has not been posted in the last 25+ years.

VA 369 for SW CC has been well-posted for a while.

VA 393 and 394 in Prince William were posted up to the mid-90s.

Community Colleges for these routes are well posted:
VA 363 near Weyers Cave
VA 365 Wytheville
VA 371 Martinsville
VA 372 Abingdon
VA 373 Dublin
VA 374 Glenns
VA 375 Wilderness (single rectangle only)
VA 378 Alberta
VA 379 Franklin
VA 384 Clifton Forge
VA 385 Keysville
VA 387 Empire CC
VA 388 Charlottesville
VA 389 Melfa
VA 391 Herndon
VA 396 Goochland
VA 398 Danville



VA 377 Middletown and VA 382 UVA-Wise are not posted

VA 383 George Mason U. is posted at VA 123 only

Not all state and community colleges are in the primary system in Virginia...
At least 3 have relinquished their primary route designations:  VA 330 Mary Washington College (Fredericksburg); VA 355 Radford Univ; VA 361 Eastern Shore near Chincoteague

Add VA 370 (Natural Tunnel State Park) to your list. Several postings, in square shields, wide shields and secondary-style rectangles. Each branch ends at a secondary route.

As an aside, I thought about stopping there on my way by last week, but Virginia now charges $4 just to park at a state park. So I said "thanks, but no thanks." I'll look for pictures online.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

bzakharin

https://goo.gl/tYqFgC
At this intersection all three directions are CR 657. Although the intersection in question doesn't sign the numbers, the northwest section is established here: https://goo.gl/tmqfNK , The northeast section here: https://goo.gl/PUKsbY . I cannot find any marker on the SE section now, but I'm pretty sure there is one

JasonOfORoads

Quote from: Bickendan on August 31, 2017, 08:30:53 PM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on August 30, 2017, 11:56:37 PM
OR 223.  It has a northern and eastern terminus both connecting to OR 22.
checking the underlying highway numbers, main branch of OR 223 is ORH 189 and the Rickreall branch is ORH 191. I believe ODOT considers this to be OR 223S but doesn't sign it this way, otherwise it'd be ORH 189Y.

I think OR 39 in Klamath Falls is still technically 3-legged. And when OR 232 was made out of an old alignment of US-97 north of there, there was a leg running into Crater Lake NP from the east. That leg was decommissioned long before OR 232 itself was, and I think it's now just a dirt road.
Borderline addicted to roadgeeking since ~1989.

cl94

Warren County, NY has one CR that is 3-legged: CR 11. The main segment connects NY 9N to I-87 Exit 24, but there is an older road forking off to the south. Both are signed as CR 11 and, unusually for Warren County, all shields have direction banners, the only route to have direction banners.
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