Traffic signal

[jay8g]

Speaking of bimodal signals... Seattle Blvd S at 4th Ave S. The left and right signals are normal (left arrows and diagonal right arrows, respectively), but the center signal has a red circle, a left bimodal green/yellow arrow, and a diagonal right bimodal green/yellow arrow. Even more strangely, the right turn comes on before the left turn (I think -- street view shows it staying on after the left instead, but I went by there recently and I remember a leading right turn), which makes the shared center lane somewhat problematic.

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

Thanks jakeroot and jeffandnicole. I havent read the MUTCD in a while.

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

Speaking of bimodal signals... Seattle Blvd S at 4th Ave S. The left and right signals are normal (left arrows and diagonal right arrows, respectively), but the center signal has a red circle, a left bimodal green/yellow arrow, and a diagonal right bimodal green/yellow arrow. Even more strangely, the right turn comes on before the left turn (I think -- street view shows it staying on after the left instead, but I went by there recently and I remember a leading right turn), which makes the shared center lane somewhat problematic.

That is one weird setup. Why not just use balls instead of left arrows, and make the middle signal a doghouse or other similar signal?

Something like this, except not a doghouse on the right (Ignore the shared left lane)

https://goo.gl/maps/GjXqG9XU1uS2

[Ian]

Bi-modal arrows on PPLT signals are very common up here in Maine. Most vertical 4-section signals in the state (minus may be one or two FYA's) will have them, including the right turn signals.

Pennsylvania is the opposite; there are virtually no bi-modal arrows anywhere in the state. In PA, especially around District 6 (Philadelphia area) there will be 4-section PPLT signals in a R-Y-G-GA arrangement with no yellow phase for the turns. The green arrow will go on for its phase, then just go dark. These are slowly being phased out, however.

[paulthemapguy]

I found my first Illinois seagull intersection...and I feel conflicted.  I'm not sure if I like how inconspicuous the left turn signals are.  Is it a good or a bad thing that these left turn arrows are less noticeable? 

https://goo.gl/maps/wRqRJi5DuoJ2

[ilpt4u]

I found my first Illinois seagull intersection...and I feel conflicted.  I'm not sure if I like how inconspicuous the left turn signals are.  Is it a good or a bad thing that these left turn arrows are less noticeable? 

https://goo.gl/maps/wRqRJi5DuoJ2

I haven't heard any issues with that interchange, or the adjacent/"matching" one going the other direction on 13, about a mile away

I've turned into the Marion/Williamson County Airport/now Veterans Airport of Southern IL just a few times, and its not a bad light/interchange design at all. The Left Signal is plenty visible if you are turning Left

Even more fun is the 8-seater Cessna Turbo Prop Flight from Marion to St Louis!

[cl94]

I found my first Illinois seagull intersection...and I feel conflicted.  I'm not sure if I like how inconspicuous the left turn signals are.  Is it a good or a bad thing that these left turn arrows are less noticeable? 

https://goo.gl/maps/wRqRJi5DuoJ2

I haven't heard any issues with that interchange, or the adjacent/"matching" one going the other direction on 13, about a mile away

I've turned into the Marion/Williamson County Airport/now Veterans Airport of Southern IL just a few times, and its not a bad light/interchange design at all. The Left Signal is plenty visible if you are turning Left

Even more fun is the 8-seater Cessna Turbo Prop Flight from Marion to St Louis!

Seagull intersections are unheard of in this part of the country. There are a couple in/near Columbus, OH and at least one in Maryland, but that's all I know of remotely close to the northeast.

[jakeroot]

Speaking of bimodal signals... Seattle Blvd S at 4th Ave S. The left and right signals are normal (left arrows and diagonal right arrows, respectively), but the center signal has a red circle, a left bimodal green/yellow arrow, and a diagonal right bimodal green/yellow arrow. Even more strangely, the right turn comes on before the left turn (I think -- street view shows it staying on after the left instead, but I went by there recently and I remember a leading right turn), which makes the shared center lane somewhat problematic.

That is one weird setup. Why not just use balls instead of left arrows, and make the middle signal a doghouse or other similar signal?

Something like this, except not a doghouse on the right (Ignore the shared left lane)

https://goo.gl/maps/GjXqG9XU1uS2

Seattle doesn't really use doghouses. In fact, I don't know of any. They are used by surrounding agencies, but not by SDOT (AFAIK).

Seattle's old PPLT signal (all but one have been replaced by FYAs):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey27vyMxea4

[ilpt4u]

Seagull intersections are unheard of in this part of the country. There are a couple in/near Columbus, OH and at least one in Maryland, but that's all I know of remotely close to the northeast.

For whatever reason, the Southern IL IDOT District seems to like to try different things...

Just in Marion, you have that pair of seagull intersections on RT 13...Continue East to the I-57/IL 13 interchange, and its a SPUI -- Marion and Southern IL in general isn't the most Urban area...and then the next I-57 interchange to the north, The Hill Ave, is a DDI -- either the First or Second in the state (not sure if it opened before or after the I-88/IL 59 one up in Naperville). And a section of IL 13 on the east side of Marion is slated to potentially get Michigan Lefts instead of regular left turns...I don't think I've EVER seen Michigan Lefts in IL, ever.

Oh and then keep going West on IL 13, and you have the Overpass Interchange to Nowhere at 13 and Wolf Creek Road, that was just built...I'm sure IDOT had a reason...maybe...

They have not decided to try the Flashing Yellow yet, tho. And I don't think thats a bad thing

[jakeroot]

I found my first Illinois seagull intersection...and I feel conflicted.  I'm not sure if I like how inconspicuous the left turn signals are.  Is it a good or a bad thing that these left turn arrows are less noticeable? 

https://goo.gl/maps/wRqRJi5DuoJ2

Reminds me of the [mostly] non-backplated eye-level signals common in BC....

- Hwy 91 @ 72 Ave, Surrey
- Hwy 11 @ Valley Road, Abbotsford

[riiga]

I found my first Illinois seagull intersection...and I feel conflicted.  I'm not sure if I like how inconspicuous the left turn signals are.  Is it a good or a bad thing that these left turn arrows are less noticeable? 

https://goo.gl/maps/wRqRJi5DuoJ2

Reminds me of the [mostly] non-backplated eye-level signals common in BC....

- Hwy 91 @ 72 Ave, Surrey
- Hwy 11 @ Valley Road, Abbotsford

Looks a lot like our Swedish setup too.

[jeffandnicole]

I found my first Illinois seagull intersection...and I feel conflicted.  I'm not sure if I like how inconspicuous the left turn signals are.  Is it a good or a bad thing that these left turn arrows are less noticeable? 

https://goo.gl/maps/wRqRJi5DuoJ2

I haven't heard any issues with that interchange, or the adjacent/"matching" one going the other direction on 13, about a mile away

I've turned into the Marion/Williamson County Airport/now Veterans Airport of Southern IL just a few times, and its not a bad light/interchange design at all. The Left Signal is plenty visible if you are turning Left

Even more fun is the 8-seater Cessna Turbo Prop Flight from Marion to St Louis!

Seagull intersections are unheard of in this part of the country. There are a couple in/near Columbus, OH and at least one in Maryland, but that's all I know of remotely close to the northeast.

There's 2 in NJ I'm familiar with.

One with a light... https://goo.gl/maps/LzfgCjbW5aH2 (County Rt. 547 at the Joint Base MDL (Lakehurst Naval Base))

And one without... https://goo.gl/maps/fr8ePpnRL8H2 (Rt. 52 Causeway between Somers Point and OCNJ) (no separating barrier either).

[US 89]

I found my first Illinois seagull intersection...and I feel conflicted.  I'm not sure if I like how inconspicuous the left turn signals are.  Is it a good or a bad thing that these left turn arrows are less noticeable? 

https://goo.gl/maps/wRqRJi5DuoJ2

I haven't heard any issues with that interchange, or the adjacent/"matching" one going the other direction on 13, about a mile away

I've turned into the Marion/Williamson County Airport/now Veterans Airport of Southern IL just a few times, and its not a bad light/interchange design at all. The Left Signal is plenty visible if you are turning Left

Even more fun is the 8-seater Cessna Turbo Prop Flight from Marion to St Louis!

Seagull intersections are unheard of in this part of the country. There are a couple in/near Columbus, OH and at least one in Maryland, but that's all I know of remotely close to the northeast.

There are plenty of these in Utah, only I believe they are called High T intersections here. Which is ironic, because the UT state bird is the California gull.

[Revive 755]

I found my first Illinois seagull intersection...and I feel conflicted.  I'm not sure if I like how inconspicuous the left turn signals are.  Is it a good or a bad thing that these left turn arrows are less noticeable? 

https://goo.gl/maps/wRqRJi5DuoJ2

I think 'Continuous Green T' is a much better name for this type of intersection.

There's been some of these around Peoria for years, though it looks like some have had the signals removed - I certainly seem to remember more than I am finding tonight.

* IL 29 at Cedar Hill Drive

* A possible former one on IL 29

* Possible former one on US 24.  Appears to have handholes and former signal foundations.

* One on US 150

[jay8g]

Seattle doesn't really use doghouses. In fact, I don't know of any. They are used by surrounding agencies, but not by SDOT (AFAIK).

I know of one set, bizarrely used at a split-phase intersection (6th and Lander).

Seattle's old PPLT signal (all but one have been replaced by FYAs):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey27vyMxea4

I know of a few of these that are still around (Boylston and Roanoke, and 25th NE and 44th, off the top of my head). Was this setup ever MUTCD-compliant or standard anywhere else?

[mrsman]

I found my first Illinois seagull intersection...and I feel conflicted.  I'm not sure if I like how inconspicuous the left turn signals are.  Is it a good or a bad thing that these left turn arrows are less noticeable? 

https://goo.gl/maps/wRqRJi5DuoJ2

I think 'Continuous Green T' is a much better name for this type of intersection.

There's been some of these around Peoria for years, though it looks like some have had the signals removed - I certainly seem to remember more than I am finding tonight.

* IL 29 at Cedar Hill Drive

* A possible former one on IL 29

* Possible former one on US 24.  Appears to have handholes and former signal foundations.

* One on US 150

A few interesting ones in California:

PCH at Chautauqua in PAcific PAlisades:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.028324,-118.5196244,3a,75y,96.1h,76.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sltDz6SXF_TbZj-j0itg8Tw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en


La Cienega at Stocker in Ladera Heights (near Inglewood):

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9982028,-118.3698316,3a,75y,133.94h,82.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRFN0HAbSMRDNdAWqMnMvcg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

[dfnva]

This just looks bad ... and it's happening quite often when single signal heads have needed replacement in Virginia.  I've not seen this practice in other states using the yellow retro-reflective backplates, where different backplate styles are mixed in the same direction.

[MNHighwayMan]

I was unaware that retroreflective backplates were even a thing. Pretty sure I've never seen one.

[UCFKnights]

I was unaware that retroreflective backplates were even a thing. Pretty sure I've never seen one.

Its a relatively new thing. In Florida, it seems like every new signal installed in the past (probably) 2 years has the retroreflective backplates... Interestingly, it seemingly appeared out of nowhere, they started doing it on every light, I never saw any test period or "slower" phase in like I've seen on other signal changes like the FYA. Backplates were generally rare in a lot of parts of the state before the retroreflective ones became standard.

The other weird part is, at least around here, as they replace individual signal heads, they seemingly always install them with the retroreflective backplate, and then most of the time, they come back a few days later and take it off to make all the signals in the same direction match backplates, or occasionally they will add it to the other existing signal heads in that direction. I haven't seen any left in a state similiar to that photo for more then a couple weeks (or at least when the construction signs come down if it is part of a larger project)

The one thing I really like about the retroreflective backplates is when the power is out, especially at night, its now really easy to see where the signals and intersections are, as compared to before, you somewhat had to remember where the intersections you are supposed to stop at are and look for others headlights to know to stop.

[dfnva]

I definitely like the retro-reflective backplate, particularly at night, but I'm pretty sure in the MUTCD it's improper to mix traditional backplates with yellow retro-reflective ones at the same intersection, especially for signals facing the same direction.

Virginia's VDOT started testing these backplates 3-4 years ago, but, starting in 2015, replaced backplates on large swaths of 'corridors of statewide significance.' In Northern Virginia, now, most or all backplates (along with some signal heads) have been replaced with the new ones on major routes like US-29 south of Centreville, VA-286 (Fairfax County Parkway), VA-289 (Franconia-Springfield Parkway), VA-294 (Prince William Pkwy), and VA-234 (Dumfries Rd / Prince William Pkwy).

When signal heads are replaced or brand new signal installations are erected, sometimes they have the new retroreflective backplates, sometimes they have traditional ones.

I wonder if Virginia is going to transition from using yellow signal housings, doors, and visors to black ones with the retroreflective backplates like Ohio does?  I think the black signal heads contrast well with the yellow retroreflective backplates.  I've seen, At one intersection on SR-648/Edsall Rd in Fairfax County, just west of I-395, black signal heads with retroreflective backplates were installed in a replacement project. Not sure if that was a fluke by a contractor or indicative of further changes in signal standards for VDOT.

[cl94]

States that have adopted retroreflective backplates for new signal installations in this part of the country include, but are certainly not limited to, Massachusetts, New York, Ohio, Vermont and Virginia. I can't speak for the others, but NY started using retroreflective in 2013-2014 and hasn't looked back. In Massachusetts, several of the new FYAs have retroreflective backplates, even if the other signal heads at the intersection do not. As mentioned previously, Ohio changed from yellow to dark green signal heads when they started using retroreflective backplates.

As far as why they're popping up everywhere: MUTCD guidance is to use backplates if the speed limit or 85th percentile speed is 45 mph or higher. Several states have taken this as their standard.

[HTM Duke]

I wonder if Virginia is going to transition from using yellow signal housings, doors, and visors to black ones with the retroreflective backplates like Ohio does?  I think the black signal heads contrast well with the yellow retroreflective backplates.  I've seen, At one intersection on SR-648/Edsall Rd in Fairfax County, just west of I-395, black signal heads with retroreflective backplates were installed in a replacement project. Not sure if that was a fluke by a contractor or indicative of further changes in signal standards for VDOT.

I know the intersection you speak of; it's at Carolina Pl and the adjacent firehouse.  About a month back, there was an accident that knocked down one of the utility poles holding the old signals up.  Though they were put back up and suffered no real damage that I saw, that accident may have led to replacement. I have a gut feeling this was a county decision (in terms of design), as the new signals are similar to this set on VA-244/Columbia Pike at the Annandale firehouse, and I have yet to see such a setup at a routine intersection in Fairfax County.

(I do wish I had gotten a video of this, but for about a week after the replacement, the new signals were flashing green.  I chalk this up to someone forgetting to reprogram the controller.)

[thenetwork]

States that have adopted retroreflective backplates for new signal installations in this part of the country include, but are certainly not limited to, Massachusetts, New York, Ohio, Vermont and Virginia. I can't speak for the others, but NY started using retroreflective in 2013-2014 and hasn't looked back. In Massachusetts, several of the new FYAs have retroreflective backplates, even if the other signal heads at the intersection do not. As mentioned previously, Ohio changed from yellow to dark green signal heads when they started using retroreflective backplates.

As far as why they're popping up everywhere: MUTCD guidance is to use backplates if the speed limit or 85th percentile speed is 45 mph or higher. Several states have taken this as their standard.

In the West, Utah seems to be phasing them in in bulk, while Colorado is going very slow in converting.  In my district, I have yet to see a backplate that is NOT all-black (nor do we have any FYAs).  Southwest Colorado, OTOH is almost all reflective bordered backplates (and FYA's).

[roadfro]

I definitely like the retro-reflective backplate, particularly at night, but I'm pretty sure in the MUTCD it's improper to mix traditional backplates with yellow retro-reflective ones at the same intersection, especially for signals facing the same direction.

Nope. The use of a yellow reflective strip is merely an option. There are no standards attached to the option that specify all signal heads on an approach (or at an intersection) must have the reflective strip.

As far as why they're popping up everywhere: MUTCD guidance is to use backplates if the speed limit or 85th percentile speed is 45 mph or higher. Several states have taken this as their standard.

That guidance is for the backplate itself, and is independent of whether reflective yellow border is applied to the backplate.

[cl94]

As far as why they're popping up everywhere: MUTCD guidance is to use backplates if the speed limit or 85th percentile speed is 45 mph or higher. Several states have taken this as their standard.

That guidance is for the backplate itself, and is independent of whether reflective yellow border is applied to the backplate.

Yes, and I never stated otherwise.