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Football (North America: NFL, CFL, Arena Football, minor leagues)

Started by Stephane Dumas, July 29, 2012, 11:20:15 AM

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amroad17

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on June 27, 2016, 02:42:38 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 27, 2016, 01:09:31 PM
Quote from: jbnv on February 17, 2016, 11:32:32 AM
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on February 17, 2016, 08:01:52 AM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 16, 2016, 11:19:09 PM

A football minor league is up against tremendous odds because of a stupid status quo that includes a habituated fan base.  Those fans are going to need be utterly and completely appalled by the NCAA-NFL relationship before they will pivot toward a pro sports business model that is closer to MLB baseball or European soccer.

There's also hockey, who use a farm system more or less similar to baseball with the AHL and ECHL.

And, as with baseball, very few people care about college hockey.

Maybe in Louisiana.  Come to Michigan and say that.  There's NCAA Division I college hockey teams at colleges that usually play in Division II.  There are 7 in the state, including 4 schools that play in Division II otherwise (MTU, NMU, LSSU, FSU + MSU, UM, and WMU).

And Boston is a College Hockey hotbed with the 4 Beanpot schools (BC, BU, Harvard, and Northeastern).  Of all places, New Haven, CT is becoming one as well; the National Championship game in 2014 was Quinnipiac vs. Yale.

The only way an NFL minor league will work is if they play their games on Tuesday or Wednesday nights.  Or if they play in the spring.
The odds would be better if they played from late February/early March to early-mid July.  A 12- or 14-game schedule plus the playoffs could fit in this timeframe.  Scouts could check the players out for talent for their own teams without the interference of the NFL season.  However, most minor league sports play at the same time as their major league counterparts play.  In football, though, there is a lot of competition from both college and high school football where fanbases are firmly entrenched.  Playing in the spring could enable fanbases in those particular cities with a minor league franchise to watch football nearly year-round.

If this is successful, minor league football could rival minor league baseball for the place to see a game in the spring or summer.  Football is a popular sport--more so than baseball.  It would not, however, interfere too much with a minor league baseball team in the same city.  There would be one football game a week verses the five or six baseball games played in a week.  These teams could co-exist--even if they both have a home game the same night.

As with the pros of an argument, there are also cons.  First is money.  For a minor league football team to be financially succesful, they are going to have to draw, at minimum, 8,000-9,000 fans per game.  It will have to be treated as minor league, like baseball.  Owners would have to sell it as seeing possible future NFL players.  There would have to be something for the fans to attend and enjoy the time at the game in addition to watching the game being played.  Going to an NFL game is basically watching the game with "name" players, enjoying some adult beverages, and rooting like hell for your home team.  A minor league team will not have "name" players unless a local former college or high school player is on the team because they did not make an NFL team.  Most people that watch football want to see the "name" players so, in all likelihood, it would take a Herculean effort to draw that much of a fanbase. 

Minor league football was tried in 1966 with the formation of the Continental Football League.  The team the was most succesful financially and at the gate was the Norfolk Neptunes.  They would average over 10,000 fans a game for their existence in the league, with a couple of seasons averaging over 13,000 fans a game.  Most of the rest of the league would draw half or less than half that amount.  The league had a fall schedule also.  Admittedly, in the 1960's and early 1970's, there wasn't the plethora of different activities that we have now.  So there is no guarantee that even if a city that had a team that went 12-0, 13-1, or 14-0 would draw 9,000 fans to their games.  Some people would rather go to the mall or Town Center, to the park, or to an amusement park.

Would the people that live in a particular city that has a minor league football team pay the possible extra taxes to build a 15,000 seat stadium?  Probably not.  The thing is a high school field would be too "bush league" yet most college stadiums would be too big--even at 25,000 seats.  An ideal minor league football stadium would have between 12,000-20,000 seats.  Would these new owners pay for a stadium to be built?  No, they would seek help from the city and the fanbase.  Unless someone was gung-ho about having a minor league football team, most people would want to keep their hard-earned money for themselves.

As mentioned above, there would be competition from the minor league baseball team in the same city.  Many of these teams have been firmly entrenched in that city for 50 or more years.  Say there is a AAA football league starting.  Using the Eastern half of the US, a league would probably have teams in places like Columbus, Hampton Roads, Raleigh/Durham, Orlando, Birmingham, Louisville, Memphis, and, to use a smaller city, Syracuse.  Each one of these places has a minor league baseball team that has been around for at least 30 years.  Are people going to give up their habit of going to the baseball game to go see a football game?  More than likely not.

There would be big competition early in the season from March Madness.  To draw in football, games would have to be played Friday, Saturday, or Sunday (traditional days).  With March Madness, the only days available would be Mondays, Tuesdays after the play-in games are played, and Wednesdays.  Most people have it in their heads that football is a weekend game.  It would take a lot to sell it as a weekday game.

Reading this, you folks may think that I am against minor league football.  Hardly.  I would love to see something to the effect of having a couple of AAA leagues and a couple of AA leagues.  I know I would go.  The price of admission would be cheaper.  In fact, I have created two leagues (an AAA and an AA league) in my Madden game using Tournament mode and Create-a-Team.  I have played six seasons of the AA league and three seasons of the AAA league.  However, playing a video game is very different than reality.  In reality, it would be most difficult to start, much less maintain, a minor league football team or league.  The odds are highly against anything like this working.  But we can dream...
I don't need a GPS.  I AM the GPS! (for family and friends)


nexus73

NFL Spring, 16 teams, each team supplied with players, coaches and staff by an AFC/NFC pair of partnering teams.  Place the teams in markets wanting an NFL team or having capable facilities (San Antonio, Orlando, Syracuse, etc.), get network contracts, then PROFIT! 

Have the NFL Draft the week after the Super Bowl.  Teams sign whoever wants to play then, add in their free agents, practice squad players and backups, then head for two weeks of camp before kicking off the season.

Four divisions, four teams per division.  Semis and the title game for two weeks of playoff action with the division winners being the teams involved.  Play six games in-division, two from each other division for 12 weeks of play.  Rotate out the two opponents from other divisions each two years after a home and home series has concluded.  Season ends in mid-June, which is enough time to sort out the players before heading into training camp in late July.

Rick
US 101 is THE backbone of the Pacific coast from Bandon OR to Willits CA.  Industry, tourism and local traffic would be gone or severely crippled without it being in functioning condition in BOTH states.

amroad17

That is a great idea!  IMHO, the best way for minor league league football to work is if the NFL somewhat subsidizes/sponsors it.

I'll go out on that proverbial line and give a list of my 16 teams for this league...
     -2 conferences (Eastern/Western or, if I want to be fancy, Atlantic/Frontier)
     -4 divisions (Capitol and Century in the East, Central and Coastal in the West)
           -Capitol: Syracuse, Hampton Roads, Raleigh/Durham, Columbus
           -Century: Orlando, Birmingham, Memphis, St. Louis (can do this now)
           -Central: San Antonio, Oklahoma City, El Paso, Omaha (or Tulsa)
           -Coastal: Portland, Sacremento, Tucson, Las Vegas (if the Raiders do not go there) or Fresno

A couple of comments...
      -It seems if I am neglecting the Upper Midwest.  If the Pontiac Silverdome could ever be resurrected (ha, ha), I would have a team there instead of Omaha and would have to reshuffle the above divisions.  There could be a team in Iowa or even Milwaukee provided there is a football stadium ready to go.
      -Louisville is another city to put a team in.  In this list, they happen to be #9 of the eight teams in the East.
      -Most of these teams would use a "capable facility" such as a college stadium or a stadium which holds college bowl games (San Antonio, El Paso).  There most likely would not be a need to build a stadium in this league.  The only team above that may have an issue would be Hampton Roads because the Va. Beach Sportsplex has a capacity of around 14,000-17,000.  However, judging by photos, it could be expanded to as much as 40,000 if they had the need to.  Or, if this league starts, say three years down the road, they could play in the new stadium that is being built for Old Dominion University.

There can be more said about the ideas in this topic, so I will yield the floor to any fellow member to expound.
I don't need a GPS.  I AM the GPS! (for family and friends)

hotdogPi

In the Northeast, you only have one team. Is that because football is not the most popular sport there (or at least in some of the states)?
Clinched

Traveled, plus 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

New:
I-189 clinched
US 7, VT 2A, 11, 15,  17, 73, 103, 116, 125, NH 123 traveled

nexus73

Northeast presence: If one went with Syracuse (domed stadium) and Toronto (domed stadium), then a real capper would be to let the Big Apple host a team!  The Giants and Jets could sponsor the Titans, which was the former name for the Jets and a close cousin in meaning to the Giants.  Or if you want to borrow from the XFL, the Hitmen!

Heck, there's lots of ways to go once the "obvious" cities have been placed.  I thought using the Really Big Cities to fill in some gaps and generate a larger TV audience would be a decent path.  How many other ideas come up will show the possibilities.  The real need is for the NFL to step up and git 'er done!

Rick
US 101 is THE backbone of the Pacific coast from Bandon OR to Willits CA.  Industry, tourism and local traffic would be gone or severely crippled without it being in functioning condition in BOTH states.

jp the roadgeek

Cities list is good.  I'd probably take Louisville over Hampton Roads (no big stadium in that area unless they use UVa), Hartford over Syracuse (bigger TV market plus proximity to New York and Boston), and Salt Lake City over Tulsa/Omaha (unless the Omaha team plays in Lincoln, there's no really big stadium in either market)
Interstates I've clinched: 97, 290 (MA), 291 (CT), 291 (MA), 293, 295 (DE-NJ-PA), 295 (RI-MA), 384, 391, 395 (CT-MA), 395 (MD), 495 (DE), 610 (LA), 684, 691, 695 (MD), 695 (NY), 795 (MD)

amroad17

I was trying to find cities that currently do not have an NFL team.  I lived in Chesapeake, VA for 22 years and have been familiar with the area trying to get a major league football team.  They almost had a WFL team in 1974, unfortunately they did not have a stadium large enough to have one (progression: Washington Ambassadors-Virginia Ambassadors-Florida Blazers-San Antonio Wings).  The Va. Beach Sportsplex did host the Virginia Destroyers of the United Football League but the seating capacity was 17,000.  Right now the capacity is 11,000 because they took the temporary bleachers away.  The stadium could be expanded to 40,000 if they wanted to do that.

So, using stadiums that are ready, I guess Louisville would be a better choice than Hampton Roads.  There is no way a Hampton Roads team would play in Charlottesville, unless they were called the Virginia (insert nickname here).

As for the Northeast, there is a 40,000+ stadium in East Hartford where UConn plays.  There could be a team in Boston where they could play at Boston College's stadium (capacity 44,500).  I know Syracuse has a small market, but if you combine Buffalo, Rochester, Albany, and Syracuse, that market would hold its own.  Plus there is a 49,250 seat domed stadium there.

I suppose there could be a team playing in the New York area.  After all, it is the #1 market in the country plus MetLife Stadium is available (if there is no soccer).

I had thought about Salt Lake City.  I am sure there isn't a stadium large enough in Omaha--I was just trying to geographically, as much as I could, balance out across the country.  However, I see Salt Lake would be a better choice.  There is a 45,000+ stadium where Utah plays.

Based on the opinions and suggestions given so far, here is a revised division setup...

     -Capitol: New York/New Jersey, Boston, Raleigh/Durham, Orlando
     -Century: Birmingham, Louisville, Memphis, St. Louis
     -Central: San Antonio, Oklahoma City, El Paso, Tucson
     -Coastal: Portland, Sacremento, Salt Lake City, Las Vegas or Fresno

I got rid of Syracuse, Hampton Roads, and Omaha.  If there ever was an AA football league started, Syracuse and Hampton Roads would definitely be in it--as well as places such as a team in Iowa, Shreveport, Tulsa, Lansing, Spokane, Knoxville, Albuquerque, Akron, Charleston, SC, Mobile, AL, Boise, Colorado Springs, Hartford, and a Chicagoland team.  In this league, the minimum stadium capacity would be 25,000.
I don't need a GPS.  I AM the GPS! (for family and friends)

LM117

Quote from: amroad17 on August 31, 2016, 10:55:50 PM
That is a great idea!  IMHO, the best way for minor league league football to work is if the NFL somewhat subsidizes/sponsors it.

I'll go out on that proverbial line and give a list of my 16 teams for this league...

           -Capitol: Syracuse, Hampton Roads, Raleigh/Durham, Columbus

I'm not so sure a team would fare well in the Raleigh/Durham market. :hmm: College basketball is king there. Everything else is usually secondary in their view.
“I don’t know whether to wind my ass or scratch my watch!” - Jim Cornette

Thing 342

If there was a way to make an NFL development league feasible, it would have happened already. The NFL tried the whole developmental league thing with NFL Europe, and it failed miserably. Numerous leagues have started with then intention of being an NFL feeder but have gone under because football is an expensive sport to play, and it's hard to drum up support for a new league. The NCAA-NFL pipeline works perfectly well for both parties involved.

Furthermore, I don't see an NFL-sponsored spring league with NFL or NFL-bound players happening, ever. There's just too much of an injury risk, both short-term (ACL tears, etc) and long-term (concussions) There's no way a team is going to let its first or second round pick play an extra 12 games in addition to the 20+ games in the current schedule.

ET21

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Clinched:
IL: I-88, I-180, I-190, I-290, I-294, I-355, IL-390
IN: I-80, I-94
SD: I-190
WI: I-90, I-94
MI: I-94, I-196
MN: I-90

oscar

Quote from: Thing 342 on September 02, 2016, 08:00:20 AM
If there was a way to make an NFL development league feasible, it would have happened already. The NFL tried the whole developmental league thing with NFL Europe, and it failed miserably. Numerous leagues have started with then intention of being an NFL feeder but have gone under because football is an expensive sport to play, and it's hard to drum up support for a new league. The NCAA-NFL pipeline works perfectly well for both parties involved.

Where does arena football fit into the picture? It is sometimes a source of NFL players, most notably Kurt Warner.
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
http://www.alaskaroads.com/home.html

Stephane Dumas

Congrats for the Ottawa Redblacks who won the Grey Cup in overtime. They ended a 40 years drought of a CFL championship.

Thing 342

In honor of conference championship week and Selection Sunday (and totally not to avoid studying for finals), I made this graphic based on the "Roads to the Playoff" that uses state route shields that ESPN has occasionally been showing:



kurumi

^^^^^^ That is really well done. Good luck with your finals :-)
My first SF/horror short story collection is available: "Young Man, Open Your Winter Eye"

Alps

Quote from: Thing 342 on December 03, 2016, 11:16:52 AM
In honor of conference championship week and Selection Sunday (and totally not to avoid studying for finals), I made this graphic based on the "Roads to the Playoff" that uses state route shields that ESPN has occasionally been showing:



Please contact ESPN.

epzik8

Yay Navy! Annapolis represent! My grandparents once lived there.
From the land of red, white, yellow and black.
____________________________

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My clinched counties: http://mob-rule.com/user-gifs/USA/epzik8.gif

jp the roadgeek

Where can I get my CT Route 128 sign like that for UConn?  :ded:
Interstates I've clinched: 97, 290 (MA), 291 (CT), 291 (MA), 293, 295 (DE-NJ-PA), 295 (RI-MA), 384, 391, 395 (CT-MA), 395 (MD), 495 (DE), 610 (LA), 684, 691, 695 (MD), 695 (NY), 795 (MD)

7/8

Yesterday was the first day of the CFL season, with the Montreal Alouettes at home beating the Saskatchewan Roughriders 17-16.

Henry

Quote from: Alps on December 03, 2016, 12:40:24 PM
Quote from: Thing 342 on December 03, 2016, 11:16:52 AM
In honor of conference championship week and Selection Sunday (and totally not to avoid studying for finals), I made this graphic based on the "Roads to the Playoff" that uses state route shields that ESPN has occasionally been showing:



Please contact ESPN.
I love this idea! They should extend that to college hoops as well!
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

jbnv

Quote from: Thing 342 on December 03, 2016, 11:16:52 AM
In honor of conference championship week and Selection Sunday (and totally not to avoid studying for finals), I made this graphic based on the "Roads to the Playoff" that uses state route shields that ESPN has occasionally been showing:

Why not just go ahead and make one for each tournament. For basketball I'd do just the Sweet 16. For baseball just the CWS.
🆕 Louisiana Highways on Twitter | Yes, I like Clearview. Deal with it. | Redos: US | La. | Route Challenge

jbnv

In fact, if you can automate the process, this would be a great thing to have in a public API or online graphic generator. You basically have five parameters:

* State.
* Number.
* "Positive" color.
* "Negative" color.
* Caption.
🆕 Louisiana Highways on Twitter | Yes, I like Clearview. Deal with it. | Redos: US | La. | Route Challenge

Roadgeekteen

Patriots fan here excited about all their new signings.
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

Roadgeekteen

Tomarow is the hof game. They cowboys and cardinals will be playing.
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

DeaconG

For the first time in many years I'm excited about the Buccaneers...I think they're going to make the playoffs. I like their draft and free agent acquisitions (everyone freaked when they got DeSean Jackson from the Skins, when OJ Howard dropped to 19 in the draft I'm screaming "You better take him!"). I think that Chris Godwin is a sleeper that's going to catch a lot of folks by surprise.

I also think Noah Spence and Vernon Hargreaves are going to step their games up this year, and Kwon Alexander is turning out to be a beast.

I'm still not thrilled about their offensive line and the secondary still needs a piece or two, but I think the Bucs are going to be very, very good. I don't think Atlanta is going to win the NFC South without the Bucs saying anything about it.
Dawnstar: "You're an ape! And you can talk!"
King Solovar: "And you're a human with wings! Reality holds surprises for everyone!"
-Crisis On Infinite Earths #2

Roadgeekteen

Quote from: DeaconG on August 03, 2017, 10:17:18 AM
For the first time in many years I'm excited about the Buccaneers...I think they're going to make the playoffs. I like their draft and free agent acquisitions (everyone freaked when they got DeSean Jackson from the Skins, when OJ Howard dropped to 19 in the draft I'm screaming "You better take him!"). I think that Chris Godwin is a sleeper that's going to catch a lot of folks by surprise.

I also think Noah Spence and Vernon Hargreaves are going to step their games up this year, and Kwon Alexander is turning out to be a beast.

I'm still not thrilled about their offensive line and the secondary still needs a piece or two, but I think the Bucs are going to be very, very good. I don't think Atlanta is going to win the NFC South without the Bucs saying anything about it.
Your team has a bright future.

Post Merge: August 06, 2017, 12:18:23 AM

Dolphins might sign Jay Cutler after Ryan Tannihill injury.
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5



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