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Superb opinion piece about transportation jargon, abbreviations and gobbledegook

Started by cpzilliacus, August 22, 2012, 10:43:03 AM

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cpzilliacus

From the Richmond Times-Dispatch: Words matter: This language goes nowhere (and it hurts)

QuoteLack of money usually tops the list of reasons why we can't solve our transportation problems.

QuoteBut try to understand how the decision process works and you'll discover a big root cause for going nowhere.

QuoteAcronyms.

QuoteMind-bending sentences.

QuoteJargon that only a trained mind could understand.

QuoteIs this why progress is so slow?

QuoteFor some strange reason, I decided to read the June "status report" of the Metropolitan Planning Organization, which guides transportation policy and recommendations for the nine localities that comprise the Richmond Regional Planning District Commission.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.


agentsteel53

QuoteNow you know why we need trained journalists.

of which this guy is not an example.  he's far too lazy to want to understand it, so he complains that it is difficult.

get a grip, asshole.  you're not being paid to be obstinately idiotic.
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

cpzilliacus

Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 22, 2012, 10:48:55 AM
QuoteNow you know why we need trained journalists.

of which this guy is not an example.  he's far too lazy to want to understand it, so he complains that it is difficult.

get a grip, asshole.  you're not being paid to be obstinately idiotic.

I must disagree with you. 

He was spot-on - and I admit to knowing and understanding very nearly all of the jargon and abbreviations in his column.

Far too often, people "in the business" (and that includes me) write stuff without considering how someone who does not know what "AADT" or "modal share" or "peak hour" or "MPO" or the rest of it might be informed (or misinformed) by such phrases and terms.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 22, 2012, 10:48:55 AM
QuoteNow you know why we need trained journalists.

of which this guy is not an example.  he's far too lazy to want to understand it, so he complains that it is difficult.

get a grip, asshole.  you're not being paid to be obstinately idiotic.

The signature line says it all:

Quote
Tom Silvestri is president and publisher of the Richmond Times-Dispatch.

Newspapers are in trouble.  They are losing money.  They are cutting back.  They are laying off reporters.  People are dropping their subscriptions. 

This is more of a plea to people why they need to keep subscribing to the newspaper.  If the newspaper isn't making money, eventually Tom is going to lose his job. 

The people that think journalists are trained to understand this jargon are the same people that believe everything you read in the newspaper.  The ones that have half a brain realize that the newspaper has an agenda.  Most newspaper reporters arrive in the morning at the office and are told to go here or there and write 5 inches of story. Many stories are nothing more than re-writes of press releases and the reporter never left the office.

I've seen stories in my paper about transportation issues (new traffic light, etc), with the journalist's name below the headline.  I can then go to the state/county website, and see the press release.  The press release was copied word-for-word. 

And we need a trained journalist for this?

agentsteel53

Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 22, 2012, 11:04:04 AM

I must disagree with you. 

He was spot-on - and I admit to knowing and understanding very nearly all of the jargon and abbreviations in his column.

Far too often, people "in the business" (and that includes me) write stuff without considering how someone who does not know what "AADT" or "modal share" or "peak hour" or "MPO" or the rest of it might be informed (or misinformed) by such phrases and terms.

I don't know all that much of the terms, but I figure that if I really cared, I could look them up. 
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

cpzilliacus

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 22, 2012, 11:05:30 AM
Newspapers are in trouble.  They are losing money.  They are cutting back.  They are laying off reporters.  People are dropping their subscriptions. 

This is more of a plea to people why they need to keep subscribing to the newspaper.  If the newspaper isn't making money, eventually Tom is going to lose his job.

I remind you what a different Tom (also from Virginia) said about newspapers:

QuoteWere it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.

The Tom in question being Tom Jefferson, former President of the United States and former Governor of Virginia.  IMO, one of the greatest Presidents of the United States.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 22, 2012, 11:05:30 AM
The people that think journalists are trained to understand this jargon are the same people that believe everything you read in the newspaper.  The ones that have half a brain realize that the newspaper has an agenda.  Most newspaper reporters arrive in the morning at the office and are told to go here or there and write 5 inches of story. Many stories are nothing more than re-writes of press releases and the reporter never left the office.

I've seen stories in my paper about transportation issues (new traffic light, etc), with the journalist's name below the headline.  I can then go to the state/county website, and see the press release.  The press release was copied word-for-word. 

And we need a trained journalist for this?

In my opinion, yes.  Especially to convey information (instead of jargon) to their readers.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Scott5114

Newspapers were the media back then. Thomas Jefferson never had a blog!
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J N Winkler

The difference between acronyms like AADT and MUTCD and the ones actually quoted in the article is that the former relate to concrete concepts in highway engineering which are easy to visualize, while the latter are bureaucratic constructs which are profoundly alienating to people who do not make it their business to follow the fine details of the transportation planning and funding process.

The author of the opinion piece (who, by the way, is the publisher of the Times-Dispatch, and so is not an ordinary reporter) has a point about acronym soup which I happen to agree with, and he underscores it by deliberately choosing acronyms which do not relate to Joe Public's everyday experience of the highway or public transit systems.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

cpzilliacus

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 22, 2012, 11:34:41 AM
Newspapers were the media back then.

Absolutely correct. More than a few were pretty nasty in their comments directed at Jefferson.  And I'm sure that had I been around then, there would have been certain papers that I would have disliked as much as I dislike certain media operations today.

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 22, 2012, 11:34:41 AM
Thomas Jefferson never had a blog!

That's too bad, for Jefferson was a good and prolific writer, though fortunately, a lot of what he wrote has survived and made it onto the Internet.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: J N Winkler on August 22, 2012, 12:01:01 PM
The difference between acronyms like AADT and MUTCD and the ones actually quoted in the article is that the former relate to concrete concepts in highway engineering which are easy to visualize, while the latter are bureaucratic constructs which are profoundly alienating to people who do not make it their business to follow the fine details of the transportation planning and funding process.

Though even technical terms (as opposed to process and legal terms like NEPA, Section 4(f), FONSI, Section 404, TIP, CLRP, SIP, and STIP) can cause laypeople to lose interest and must (in my opinion) be used with caution.  Maybe there should be a glossary or list of terms at the end  of any document that uses abbreviations or jargon like this?  Or do we need to mandate a jargon and lingo review before something goes to the public?

Quote from: J N Winkler on August 22, 2012, 12:01:01 PM
The author of the opinion piece (who, by the way, is the publisher of the Times-Dispatch, and so is not an ordinary reporter) has a point about acronym soup which I happen to agree with, and he underscores it by deliberately choosing acronyms which do not relate to Joe Public's everyday experience of the highway or public transit systems.

Of course he was trying to make a point.  I happen to think it's a very valid point.

I was at a public workshop/open house last night for a proposed major transportation project (not a highway project - PM me and I will send you the details), and I know and respect personally some of the people that put the public display items together, and there was still far too much jargon (in my opinion) for a public meeting.  I make this assertion even though many of the persons attending were "groupies" who know and like this stuff.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 22, 2012, 11:27:40 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 22, 2012, 11:05:30 AM

And we need a trained journalist for this?

In my opinion, yes.  Especially to convey information (instead of jargon) to their readers.

But...was this meeting ever conveyed in the newspaper in the first place?  He uses this meeting as an example about why we need newspapers and newspaper reporters, but I seriously doubt any of his trained reporters ever reported on the meeting.

I would have liked to seen the paragraph that he referenced, and then how his reporters summed up the paragraph. 

cpzilliacus

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 22, 2012, 01:28:35 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 22, 2012, 11:27:40 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 22, 2012, 11:05:30 AM

And we need a trained journalist for this?

In my opinion, yes.  Especially to convey information (instead of jargon) to their readers.

But...was this meeting ever conveyed in the newspaper in the first place?  He uses this meeting as an example about why we need newspapers and newspaper reporters, but I seriously doubt any of his trained reporters ever reported on the meeting.

I would have liked to seen the paragraph that he referenced, and then how his reporters summed up the paragraph. 

The Times-Dispatch does cover the activities of the designated Metropolitan Planning Organization for metropolitan Richmond, the Richmond Regional Planning District Commission, though I don't know if the Times-Dispatch covered a specific meeting.

I read the Times-Dispatch because it has a good perspective on statewide issues across Virginia (and especially for stories about the Virginia Department of Transportation), and less for stories about the Richmond Regional PDC.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Hot Rod Hootenanny

If not newspapers than who? Radio?  :ded: TV?  :poke: They only show up when the locals are surprised at what is being dumped in their front yards.  :pan:
So should everyone drop everything (jobs, family, pleasure) and show up for every public meeting? Is that what life in the 21st century should be?  :banghead:
Please, don't sue Alex & Andy over what I wrote above

Scott5114

I take a skeptical eye to those who complain about jargon in general. Jargon is nothing but a special vocabulary used by folks who have a reason to discuss things that the average person has no need to have a word for. I work on slot machines in a casino, so I have a lot of slot-machine related jargon most people don't need to know, like "line pay", "accumulated win", "taxable jackpot" vs "nontaxable jackpot", "progressive", "payline 20 error", "hand pay", "key-over", "logic door", "logic box", etc. If you want to learn about how floor attendants work you would have to learn these terms at some point because they are all things that we have to deal with; it's unreasonable to say "Don't use the jargon! Say 'jackpot under $1200' instead of 'nontaxable jackpot'!" Likewise I have been studying the way the blackjack pits operate, and they have a jargon all their own–"shuffle check", "color in", "color out", "checks play", "hard 17" vs. "soft 17", "splashing" and "keeling" chips, etc. It's my responsibility to learn what is being said, not for the blackjack dealers to stop using the jargon so I can figure out what's going on.
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cpzilliacus

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 23, 2012, 12:04:03 AM
I take a skeptical eye to those who complain about jargon in general. Jargon is nothing but a special vocabulary used by folks who have a reason to discuss things that the average person has no need to have a word for. I work on slot machines in a casino, so I have a lot of slot-machine related jargon most people don't need to know, like "line pay", "accumulated win", "taxable jackpot" vs "nontaxable jackpot", "progressive", "payline 20 error", "hand pay", "key-over", "logic door", "logic box", etc. If you want to learn about how floor attendants work you would have to learn these terms at some point because they are all things that we have to deal with; it's unreasonable to say "Don't use the jargon! Say 'jackpot under $1200' instead of 'nontaxable jackpot'!" Likewise I have been studying the way the blackjack pits operate, and they have a jargon all their own–"shuffle check", "color in", "color out", "checks play", "hard 17" vs. "soft 17", "splashing" and "keeling" chips, etc. It's my responsibility to learn what is being said, not for the blackjack dealers to stop using the jargon so I can figure out what's going on.

Yes, but when we discuss the transportation network, we are (usually) discussing the expenditure of public dollars. 

Government has a special obligation to not impose jargon on the taxpayers.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

NE2

Better jargon than five different words with overlapping definitions depending on where you are.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

Scott5114

Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 23, 2012, 12:49:47 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 23, 2012, 12:04:03 AM
I take a skeptical eye to those who complain about jargon in general. Jargon is nothing but a special vocabulary used by folks who have a reason to discuss things that the average person has no need to have a word for. I work on slot machines in a casino, so I have a lot of slot-machine related jargon most people don't need to know, like "line pay", "accumulated win", "taxable jackpot" vs "nontaxable jackpot", "progressive", "payline 20 error", "hand pay", "key-over", "logic door", "logic box", etc. If you want to learn about how floor attendants work you would have to learn these terms at some point because they are all things that we have to deal with; it's unreasonable to say "Don't use the jargon! Say 'jackpot under $1200' instead of 'nontaxable jackpot'!" Likewise I have been studying the way the blackjack pits operate, and they have a jargon all their own–"shuffle check", "color in", "color out", "checks play", "hard 17" vs. "soft 17", "splashing" and "keeling" chips, etc. It's my responsibility to learn what is being said, not for the blackjack dealers to stop using the jargon so I can figure out what's going on.

Yes, but when we discuss the transportation network, we are (usually) discussing the expenditure of public dollars. 

Government has a special obligation to not impose jargon on the taxpayers.

I don't agree. If you are going to responsibly form an opinion on something, you should do the research to find out what is being discussed and not take an opinion based on ignorance. You shouldn't vote for a presidential candidate because you like his tie; you shouldn't try to influence the outcome of a public works meeting without knowing what is being discussed. Know what the candidates support, know what the DOT is proposing before you support/oppose it. It is not as though the DOT representative is standing on the stage speaking in Parseltounge. If he uses a term you can't understand in context, you can Google it really quickly on your phone, or ask for clarification in the Q&A portion.
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cpzilliacus

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 23, 2012, 02:22:58 AM
I don't agree. If you are going to responsibly form an opinion on something, you should do the research to find out what is being discussed and not take an opinion based on ignorance. You shouldn't vote for a presidential candidate because you like his tie; you shouldn't try to influence the outcome of a public works meeting without knowing what is being discussed.

Federal law and federal metropolitan planning organizations mandate significant public involvement in the regional transportation planning process.  Agencies doing this sort of work are supposed to encourage public participation, and on controversial matters, there is some.  But the day-to-day mundane stuff is boring to most people, and jargon and lingo discourage make it more so.

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 23, 2012, 02:22:58 AM
Know what the candidates support, know what the DOT is proposing before you support/oppose it. It is not as though the DOT representative is standing on the stage speaking in Parseltounge. If he uses a term you can't understand in context, you can Google it really quickly on your phone, or ask for clarification in the Q&A portion.

Parseltounge?  Good one!

Keep in mind that at least one of the things that triggered this op-ed was not an interactive session, but one or more documents issued by the Richmond Metropolitan Planning Organization. 

But getting to interactive sessions, I have seen far too many of those where (in my opinion) too much lingo and jargon is used (both engineering terms and process abbreviations). In a large meeting (especially if many of the attendees are not "groupies"), use of Parseltounge or "inside baseball" terms is very unfair to the audience.   
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 23, 2012, 12:04:03 AM
...I have a lot of slot-machine related jargon most people don't need to know, like "line pay", "accumulated win", "taxable jackpot", "progressive", "hand pay"...

Actually, I would love to know and hear that jargon way more than I do!!! :-)  Most of mine consists of "That $20 went fast" and "Why am I not getting any bonuses"!

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 23, 2012, 12:04:03 AM
..."shuffle check", "color in", "color out", "checks play", "hard 17" vs. "soft 17", "splashing" and "keeling" chips, etc. It's my responsibility to learn what is being said, not for the blackjack dealers to stop using the jargon so I can figure out what's going on.

Actually, just hang around a group of blackjack players...they know the jargon real well. 

Scott5114

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 23, 2012, 08:37:26 AM
Actually, just hang around a group of blackjack players...they know the jargon real well. 

I have a couple of dealer friends. Picked it up really quickly. ;)
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vdeane

You need jargon.  It's very difficult to describe something technical without it.  I'd rather that engineers be able to do engineering; if they had to spend all their time figuring out how to describe something to a lazy layperson without losing accuracy, they'd have no time for anything else.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: deanej on August 23, 2012, 10:10:46 AM
You need jargon.  It's very difficult to describe something technical without it.  I'd rather that engineers be able to do engineering; if they had to spend all their time figuring out how to describe something to a lazy layperson without losing accuracy, they'd have no time for anything else.

Jargon and lingo in a forum like this is fine.

Jargon and lingo in a forum where taxpaying citizens (who are not transportation fans or insiders - in this context I mean roadgeeks, railfans, plane spotters and the rest) is wrong, for it implies "you are not welcome to participate."

Providing a glossary at the end of the terms and acronyms helps, but it is difficult for people to have to keep turning to the glossary in order to understand something.

For a good example of a reasonably jargon-free technical document, see the regional mobility/congestion index site run by the Texas Transportation Institute, part of the Texas A&M University [full disclosure:  I know professionally all three of the principal researchers at TTI that work on this].
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Scott5114

Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 23, 2012, 11:42:49 AM
Jargon and lingo in a forum where taxpaying citizens (who are not transportation fans or insiders - in this context I mean roadgeeks, railfans, plane spotters and the rest) is wrong, for it implies "you are not welcome to participate."

No, it doesn't.

Using jargon means there is some specific concept that nobody outside the field has reason to have a word for. There is no reason for anyone not involved in public works projects to have names for things like "environmental impact statements" or "records of decision". But they are a critical part of the process of building a public works project in this day and age, so there is a need to have a name for them–you can't just call it "that environment thing EPA wants us to have"–and writing/saying/typing out "environmental impact statement" is cumbersome with repeated use so it's an EIS.

Any linguist will tell you that the way brain processes things is tied to the language used. It's difficult to discuss concepts your language lacks terms for. Some languages have no distinction between "green" and "blue", and as a result speakers of those languages sometimes have difficulty distinguishing between the two, since they are both mentally categorized as "greenblue". How could you possibly discuss the process of obtaining an EIS in a meeting without using those terms? It seems to me like "dumbing things down" by glossing over the finer points of the processes and requirements involved with the aim of making it easier to understand is more exclusionary than letting them in on exactly what is happening by using more precise language.

The alternative is to gloss over the process entirely–it's really hard for people
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kphoger

My two bits:

CLRP is an initialism.  FONSI is an acronym.  MUTCD is an initialism.  KDOT blurs the line.

And that's all I have to say about that.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Scott5114

uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef



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